What's so special about Abaddon?

[Kol Saresk]

Except that in the Necron 3rd Edition, Terra was already inhabited by the tree-dwelling primeapes that would become Humanity. So it follows deductive reasoning that if the seeds of Humanity were around before the Necrons went to sleep, and Human itself was still around after they went to sleep, then Terra is not a tomb world.

 

Going by the background and that we know the one condition for a tomb world is that it has to have Necrons hibernating there, neither Terra nor Mars are tomb worlds as Terra was never settled by the Necrons and the only reason a C'Tan shard is present on Mars is because the Emperor imprisoned it there.

 

More likely what happened is that the Dragon Mars is a C'Tan Shard of the Void Dragon that was left to wander space on its own after the Necrons went into hibernation and it happened to find Terra, which had grown into a planet overflowing with Humanity. There, it came into conflict with the Emperor who subdued and then imprisoned it on Mars, which at the time was a planet with no life beyond some bacteria. That gave him plenty of privacy to create the Noctis Labyrinth and to institute the first Guardians of the Dragons. And after Mars became colonized and eventually became the Mechanicum which worshipped the Dragon of Mars, the Emperor came and used its power to "prove" himself to be the Omnissiah.

 

It sounds complex, but its really simple. Neither Terra nor Mars are tomb worlds because they don't fit the one primary condition that makes a tomb world a tomb world; hibernating Necrons. The Sol System just happens to be a resting place of a C'Tan shard, much like the Eldar Maiden World of Silentia. And just like Mars, Silentia was attacked by Necrons who discovered there was a Shard there.

 

Now, moving back closer to the topic, one of the qualifying factors we seem to be using to judge Abaddon is the 13th Black Crusade. Now, the Eye of Terror campaign has not been retconned. A D-B, the only one of us who is an employee of GW/BL and can sit there and say it without it being bias, has said that the Cadian Gate is still thrown wide open. What has changed is the scope.

 

Now, many of us, because we're so busy stewing in our own negativity(I'm including myself here), we were so concentrated on seeing how GW might have shafted Chaos this time, that we did not read the Codex. Let me say that again. We did not. Read. The Codex.

 

We say there, and saw how the 13th Black Crusade was in its opening stages and we thought, incorrectly, impatiently, and irrationally, that meant it had been retconned to before the EoT campaign. And then we read about the Crimson Path, but somewhere the neurons required for deductive reasoning decided to fart out. Again, I say "we" because I am including myself here.

 

What we failed to take into account is that the only thing GW changed is the scale of the 13th Black Crusade. In other words, the attack for the Cadian Gate, is only a stepping stone for Abaddon's plans. Think about that, the entire Eye of Terror Campaign, the campaign that had hundreds, if not thousands of individual armies and sub-factions fighting each other for control, is a stepping stone. All of that was the opening stages of the 13th Black Crusade.

 

Contrary to what everyone believed back in 3rd Edition, the 13th Black Crusade did not end with the taking of the Cadian Gate. The Cadian Gate was simply the Operation Overlord of the 13th Black Crusade. The Crimson Path is the march to Berlin/Terra.

[Ishagu]

Why does Abaddon even hate the Imperium?

He has no motive to do so.

 

Horus wanted to be Emperor, he was manipulated by Chaos into making that decision. Abaddon hates Horus for his failure, thinks of him ultimately as being weak and being a servant of Chaos.

 

HE doesn't repeat the mistake of pledging his soul to the ruinous powers, yet he follows the path of his Primarch whom he doesn't think much of.

 

He's just your typical Uber badguy with a plot+ save.

[Kol Saresk]

His motivation is that he's a veteran who has had it up to here with the VA.

 

Which actually isn't too far off. Now, because we all live in mostly peacetime, first world societies that play at being warriors because it makes us feel pretty, it doesn't mean those values the warriors of old practiced, such as honor, had as little weight in their lives as it does in ours.

 

Abaddon was and still is a believer in the old motivational poster about how the Emperor betrayed the Astartes when he took the Imperium that they and their brothers had fought, bled, and died to build, and handed over to bureacrats who had never ever seen a war zone, much less actually been in one.

 

And even in 40K, that still rings true for the most part.

 

And he wants to change that. He wants the Imperium that he was promised. And he will fight, bleed, and die, all over again, of that is what it takes to finally make it happen.

 

Now sure, to us civilians it might sound like a weak motivation. But go to any US Veteran and ask them how they feel about the VA and if they had the chance, would they tear it down and then remake into a better image? You'd end up meeting a lot of Abaddons.

[Ishagu]

He'd be better off forming his own Empire, an alternative to the Imperium with more freedom and choice.

 

Would make him far more interesting

[Kol Saresk]

And then it would make him absolutely no threat to the Imperium which would then make him worthless as an arch-protagonist. If you want a Sinestro, you have to go to DC comics. In 30K and 40K, children who grow up to be brainwashed super soldiers just happen to be two-dimensional bad apples. If after all this time you actually some sort of half-done, over used and yet still expected "good guy gone bad" waste of a plotline, then I don't know what to tell you. Perhaps you'd be more interested in Khârn or Lucius? They're even more two-dimensional. Because that's how people are sometimes.

[Teetengee]

He'd be better off forming his own Empire, an alternative to the Imperium with more freedom and choice.

 

Would make him far more interesting

I mean, that is impossible in the same galaxy as the Imperium unless you beat the Imperium first. Plus, Abaddon is hungry for power, that is a lot of his motivation. Additionally, earlier on you somewhat simplified his opinion on Horus, he thought Horus was a fool for how much he relied on Chaos, not for using Chaos.

[Ishagu]

The Tau and Eldar are interesting, as are the other Xenos.

 

Abaddon is your typical moustache twirling power-mad villain, and there's no reason I'd get behind him from his lore.

[Teetengee]

The Tau and Eldar are interesting, as are the other Xenos.

 

Abaddon is your typical moustache twirling power-mad villain, and there's no reason I'd get behind him from his lore.

The whole point that you seem to be missing is that he isn't just that, and every time someone points it out to you, you say but "why would I care about the lore of this guy when he is just blah," ignoring the fact that we were trying to show you how he is not just "blah."

[Khornestar]

Could not disagree more about Tau and Eldar. If they were wholly absent from the universe, I'd be thrilled. Anyway, that's a topic for another thread. Or forum, rather.

[Ishagu]

 

 

The Tau and Eldar are interesting, as are the other Xenos.

 

Abaddon is your typical moustache twirling power-mad villain, and there's no reason I'd get behind him from his lore.

The whole point that you seem to be missing is that he isn't just that, and every time someone points it out to you, you say but "why would I care about the lore of this guy when he is just blah," ignoring the fact that we were trying to show you how he is not just "blah."

He's selfish and power hungry. Yes, he's focused and mentally strong.

[Prot]

He'd be better off forming his own Empire, an alternative to the Imperium with more freedom and choice.

 

Would make him far more interesting

 

 

Here's the thing.... (Just my opinion mind you, which according to my wife is typically incorrect and incoherent.)

 

Abaddon is -beyond- despising the Emperor and his Imperium.  

 

Humour me and just travel back in time a bit.... You have think back to the days when Abaddon stood at the side of his Primarch Father, and the Emperor. There was a bond, and a trust there that (in reality or not) is broken in Abaddon's eyes. The bond was based on a lie, mistrust, and an alterior motive.

 

Specifically, Abaddon despises the 'fact' that he, and his legion, and his gene father mowed down countless civilizations and reclaimed it all for... for what? For whom? To what end?

 

Abaddon's Legion and Primarch were tasked with leading it all in the Emperor's absence. Why put that on anyone? Even a Primarch? What's so bloody important he would have his favoured son 'take the bullet'? 

 

Then when that Primarch is mortally wounded, where is this 'god'? Does he run to the favoured son's side? Does he at least come to the Legion's aid? Does he save his dying son? Or at least come back to the front lines? Nope... he's too busy. He's building 'something'... something no one really knows about. A stupid side project? He let his son die for a Hobby project? He let the head figure and guiding Legion of HIS crusade just die and fade? Because of a mountain he's digging into? 

 

The first (that we know of) Primarch dies in His crusade, and He couldn't care less about it. NOW it's all starting to make sense to Abaddon. It's a big steaming pile of self serving :cuss. It's all been a lie. He never cared about anyone.... just more statues of Him, more taxes, more planets, and civilizations broken for His use.

 

That was a huge trust factor broken... shattered. Enter a hateful man with a boat load of anger that is left looking at ALL of it through new eyes. What was it all for? A crazy ideal dictated by a madman digging in caves?

 

Add in that Abaddon is definitely 'steered' by perceptions fed to him by Chaos, pile on his own anger management issues, and give all that to a genetically modified human that's only purpose is war. That's just ugly, and it's a nasty cocktail that fuels Abaddon. It drives him so hard he's rejected the Warp's gift of 'godhood' because he wants to be there to kick that golden wheel chair over and say "here's your <deleted> Crusade, you lying sack of <deleted>."

 

That's just how I've read all this stuff and interpreted it.... personally. Me? I think that together the Emperor and Horus should have strongly considered some family counseling long before Horus moved out of the house. Too late for that now.

[Lay]

He'd be better off forming his own Empire, an alternative to the Imperium with more freedom and choice.

Would make him far more interesting

We can't all be Ultramarines.

[battle captain corpus]

@Prot, nail. Head. Hit. :)

 

For me the juxtaposition of Abaddon has always truly fascinated me also. A demigod who stood with gods and heroes of pure myth and legend.

Actually think on that. Mortal, Astartes, Captain of the Justarean, 1st Company Captain, Mournival founder, lost son, Warmaster.

Imagine if Hermes (the Greek God who was the herald of the gods and delivered souls to Hades) still lived today. Imagine the isolation, the rage, the burning desire to tear down everything that was wrong and had been since his gods had passed.

Think on about the rage and fury of a son who's lost his father, the closest person who could understand him and took him under his wing.

This is a man who fought tooth and fist for everything he ever had to then find his father butchered by the being that created him, the being that Abaddon fully believed would die that day by his fathers hand.

Look at the only other Astartes who lives now who can recall any of this. Bjorn the Fellhanded. His rage at being denied a death alongside the Russ has burned so bright it's kept him driven for 10,000 years, albeit in a Dreadnought.

Abaddon lives in a galaxy that is so detached from what the ideals of the crusades were that he is probably ashamed of it even existing.

Now think about the pure control, strength and character it takes to lead, beat down, subject and recruit the filth that comprises the shattered legions, daemons, renegades and maggot eyed freaks in the Eye.

 

To sum up Abaddon as "selfish and power hungry" is a akin to saying Bjorns just an old wolf.

 

BCC

[Ishagu]

But it was the actions of himself and the traitors that created the awful Imperium of the 41St millennium, and his war against it still benefits the Chaos Gods more so than anyone else.

[Teetengee]

But it was the actions of himself and the traitors that created the awful Imperium of the 41St millennium, and his war against it still benefits the Chaos Gods more so than anyone else.

And? The Imperium was awful before, built on lies and lead by an uncaring ruler (as far as Abaddon is concerned). Sure, they failed to fix the imperium and the imperium got worse because of it, but that isn't really his fault....

 

And even if he were to accept responsibility for it... how would that help anything, he is still one of the few living beings that actually knows what happened and has an idea of how to fix it....

[Ishagu]

How to fix it? By killing billions?

[Kol Saresk]

Was it though? Wasn't it the Emperor, who made his deals with the Chaos Gods in order to create the Primarchs? The same Emperor who did nothing to help or prevent Primarchs such as Angron or Curze from becoming such monsters? Wasn't it the Emperor's fault for meetinh people like Erebus and Kor Phaeron and Typhus, seeing their souls as is described by every person whoever met the Emperor, and then allowing those individuals to exist even though they would help lead their individual Primarchs to ruin?

 

In-universe character perception is paramount to understanding a character. An out-universe perception such as ours, which gets to see the whole picture, is irrelevant. We get to understand more than the other characters. But if often takes us out of the picture.

 

It'd be like saying the Ultramarines are a worthless Chapter because they totally regiment themselves according to a book that is a half-written copy of what might have been the original Codex Astartes.

 

But that overly simplistic view is so narrow-minded that it completely ignores in-universe perceptions, character motivations and everything else that makes the Ultramarines the Ultramarines, the exemplars what a Codex-adherent Astartes should be.

 

How to fix it? By killing billions?

Well, that is how the Imperium was built. So, like grandfather, like grandson.

[Ishagu]

The thing is, Abaddon has seen first hand what the Ruinous powers are all about.

He would be stupid indeed if he thought subjecting all of humanity to them would make things better.

[Kol Saresk]

Is it really worse than the Imperium? The Imperium were the wealthy and well-off are always corrupt and taking advantage of others when they aren't using them as expendable pawns in battle? The Imperium that says the total devastation of a planet not as a loss of life, but rather as an unwanted diversion of materiale to reclaim and/or rebuild that planet? The Imperium where the average human is either a soldier waiting to die, a slave who will live only to work himself to death, or a homeless vagrant who is just waiting for the cruel universe to end his existence?

 

Even in 30K it was the same. Even Ultramar had slums. And who do you think made up those slums? The people who had nothing to contribute to society. The people society dragged along and cared for just so it could go "look at me! I am good!"

 

That's the trick to 40K. You will die a slave. And you will die for masters who will not care that you even existed.

[Vesper]

Chaos don't wont ever exterminate or teminate humanity. The Eye of Terror is teeming with life, after all.

Truth is, the Chaos gods aren't that terrible. They favour the rule of the strong over the weak after all. Survival of the fittest and all that jazz.

And that's a brutal truth that probably earns the respect of Abaddon, who feels the strong have been robbed of what, in the end, was rightfuly theirs by right of conquest. And the Imperium's inhability to survive any longer, its inhability to crush its enemies once and for all, its inhability to claim any true and definitive victory points to him being right.

Abaddon isn't the Chaos gods' toy, yet they poured their power into him, just like the Emperor. Yet his feets are still on the ground. He hasn't succombed to the lure, he has seen the errors of the Emperor and those of his own father. He has understood what sincerity there is in Chaos and he's not an hypocrite. The members of the Black Legion can choose to embrace any god they want, but the Legion always has to come first. And that's greatness. Turning Chaos into a stepping stone, not a goal in itself, having the strength to rise above it, to turn it into a weapon, to keep going forward.

And that's the story of Abaddon. He's at the peak of its power and the Imperium is crumbling. He's coming to claim what is his. Not simply because he used to be the First Captain of the Sons of Horus. But because he deserves it.

[Prot]

The thing is, Abaddon has seen first hand what the Ruinous powers are all about.

He would be stupid indeed if he thought subjecting all of humanity to them would make things better.

 

Honestly I don't think Abaddon actually cares at all for Chaos. The enemy of my enemy is my friend.... For Abaddon I think Chaos is a means to an end. I don't think he trusts 'it', and he won't capitulate to it, that's for sure. It's just a tool with weekend benefits. 

 

I don't think he's a raging lunatic, but he's probably been altered more by these experiences than he might perceive. He's not an idiot, just crazy, and eternally angry.

[Teetengee]

How to fix it? By killing billions?

No, Trillions. The foolish mortals who worship a being who in life was militantly anti-religion have no value in Abaddon's future. Abaddon understands that when one deals with chaos, they are always going to get a raw deal, but ultimately one is only lying to themselves if they thought it was going to be any different than that. Chaos is a true meritocracy, where the effective rise and the ineffective die. The imperium is a gross bureaucracy where life and personal success are largely meaningless. Abaddon believes that an empire where people live and die by their own deeds is better than where such decisions usually have nothing to do with the individual's actions. It isn't a terribly nice or safe environment, but it is the one that Abaddon prefers, particularly if the truth of it is laid bare, unlike the truth of the Imperium, which is hidden from its inhabitants and always has been.

[Ishagu]

But if not for Chaos the Imperium would be an idyllic utopia of progress and truth.

Come now guys, Abaddon is just a selfish bad guy who wants to rule.

His war benefits the very powers who led to Horus dying and turning his back on everything he had achieved.

His ultimate goal of overthrowing Earth is what the Warmaster tried to achieve, nothing unique or special about it.

 

Everything Abaddon hates about the modern Imperium is the result of the Ruinous powers. Also, the Emperor never told any of the Astartes that they would one day be rulers.

You can't hate something which you created by your own foolishness.

 

The only person Abaddon is justified in hating is Horus. He was a pawn to Chaos who created the very thing he wanted to prevent, and was ultimately killed. He was the true failure and hypocrite.

 

He's entitled. He's not just or clever or compelling.

[Teetengee]

But if not for Chaos the Imperium would be an idyllic utopia of progress and truth.

-snip-

That is pure fiction. The imperium of the great crusade era was built on the lie that gods did not exist (which had it been known that the chaos gods were real to the primarchs and the legions, the events of Davin's Moon might have been avoided). Furthermore, they were a xenocidal and brutal regime that demanded compliance or bloodshed from every single culture they encountered. Additionally, without chaos the imperium would be almost nonfunctional. Psychic communication and warp travel were all that allowed it to work, and unless an imperial webway could have been constructed (again more hidden and concealed truths from the Emperor's sons that had they been revealed, could have prevented the heresy) there is no way to stop the dependency on the warp. Additionally, it is almost certain that the Emperor used the warp to create the primarchs/legions in the first place.

 

Without the horus heresy, the imperium would still be a xenocidal brutal regime built on hypocrisy and lies.

Without the lies of the emperor the heresy might have been entirely avoided.

Without chaos entirely, the warp would have never existed and the setting would be completely different from what it is, no dying eldar race, old ones, gods, war in heaven, psykers, warp travel.....

[Ishagu]

Yet if the Emperor had completed his secret project and closed the warp off, those "Gods" really wouldn't exist.

 

They were definitely overly brutal, but that was a symptom of the galaxy they were in.