Vesper Posted March 5, 2016 Share Posted March 5, 2016 But if not for Chaos the Imperium would be an idyllic utopia of progress and truth. Nope. Terra during the Unification Wars was a bloody mess. The Great Crusade was a nightmare of imperialism, death, lies and destruction. And the 40k Imperium isn't much better these days, except it's dying. And a dying regime is always more violent. Truth is, if mankind wasn't like it is, Chaos would be different. Come now guys, Abaddon is just a selfish bad guy who wants to rule. Maybe for the better. But indeed, he has quite a few things in common with the Emperor (even though he values brotherhood, when the Emperor was alone and wanted the whole Galaxy to revolve around his petty self). His war benefits the very powers who led to Horus dying and turning his back on everything he had achieved.His ultimate goal of overthrowing Earth is what the Warmaster tried to achieve, nothing unique or special about it. The war benefits the very powers who deceived Horus, but that's Horus's hubris that allowed him to be tricked. And it benefits them on a relative basis, since Abaddon isn't their pawn. It benefits them as much as any kill made by any Imperial since that's the way Chaos works. But on the long run, Abaddon's goals aren't aligned with those the Chaos gods have for the Materium. Everything Abaddon hates about the modern Imperium is the result of the Ruinous powers. I think Abaddon hates the Imperium as a whole. Even the Crusade era imperium he once believed in. And what the Imperium is by 40k is largely the result of the incompetence of those driving it. That's the consequence of having the weak being in charge, it weakens everything. Also, the Emperor never told any of the Astartes that they would one day be rulers.You can't hate something which you created by your own foolishness. He probably didn't tell the Thunder Warriors were disposable tools made to die once their purpose was served. Which was a possible outcome of the success of the Great Crusade. He's entitled. He's not just or clever or compelling. He thinks he is. And 10k years of war, more than 100k Chaos marines, titan legions, Dark Mechanicus forces, untold millions of mortal servants and entire armies think he is. And the events are going his way. Yet if the Emperor had completed his secret project and closed the warp off, those "Gods" really wouldn't exist. How so ? The Eldars have a Webway and they still fear the Chaos gods very much as a real threat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teetengee Posted March 5, 2016 Share Posted March 5, 2016 -snip- His war benefits the very powers who led to Horus dying and turning his back on everything he had achieved. -snip- And? It benefits Abaddon too, and he needs that as much as it is likely distasteful to him. -snip- His ultimate goal of overthrowing Earth is what the Warmaster tried to achieve, nothing unique or special about it. -snip- Except that since he personally witnessed the failure of Horus and is in a unique situation, he might actually succeed. Addtionally, that is a large point of The Long War it is long because it is the same war, with the same goal, that Horus started. -snip- Everything Abaddon hates about the modern Imperium is the result of the Ruinous powers. -snip- No, it is the result of people using the ruinous powers and each other without any idea of what they were really doing, (Emperor, Horus, Magnus,...._ -snip- Also, the Emperor never told any of the Astartes that they would one day be rulers. -snip- Well no, but that doesn't mean Abaddon, from an incredibly might makes right martial culture didn't assume it to be so and was reasonably (within the contexts of his cultural background) upset when it did not occur. -snip- You can't hate something which you created by your own foolishness. -snip- Tell that to Victor Frankenstein, or literally any person fictional or real that has ever made a mistake they wished they could take back. At the risk of getting too political, look at the USA and the many regions in the Middle East, much of the Iraq war could be traced back to events that the US set in motion. (If too much mods please just remove that sentence, as I am putting a lot of effort into the post). -snip- The only person Abaddon is justified in hating is Horus. He was a pawn to Chaos who created the very thing he wanted to prevent, and was ultimately killed. He was the true failure and hypocrite. -snip- Yeah, well, Abaddon does hate Horus, so I'm not sure I see your point... ("Horus was weak, Horus was a fool") -snip- He's entitled. He's not just or clever or compelling. I mean, one can argue he is entitled, but that doesn't necessarily mean he isn't interesting. He is an arch-baddie, of course he isn't going to be some noble guy we (the players) can fully support. He is a bad guy, and entitlement may be one of his flaws, but that isn't really relevant to whether or not he is clever/compelling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
battle captain corpus Posted March 5, 2016 Share Posted March 5, 2016 Ishagu with the greatest respect we've offered some real insight and depth into one of the most feared warlords and beings present in 40k, however I feel as if all of this you genuinely don't care about? You are adamant your case is right and irrefutable and nothing from us can dissuade you. I am sure if we were hellbent on putting across any feelings we had on Calgar or Gulliman you would be happy to convince us otherwise. This is all we have tried to do after all. I for one am a little perplexed and annoyed at this to be frank as this is actually a very colourful and lively discussion over a character close to my heart and hobby for over 20 years. BCC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted March 6, 2016 Share Posted March 6, 2016 I really didn't mean to offend, and I hope I've not done so! We all have a thorough understanding of the lore, but it appears we've reached different conclusions or interpretations. I do find this topic interesting, and I didn't mean to hijack quite as large a part of the discussion. All viewpoints are interesting to me :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teetengee Posted March 6, 2016 Share Posted March 6, 2016 I'm glad we didn't scare you off.To be fair, I think your (previous?) perception of abaddon is pretty easy to come to given how sparse his fluff is if you don't climb down the rabbit hole that is chaos lore. Also, do we know if this guy will be getting a new 40k model some time, because I think his current one is uglier than sin and have never liked him as a character because of just how hideous it looks to me. That terrible topknot, ugh! ;) (seriously, I don't like topknots as gw tends to model them: going straight up) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted March 6, 2016 Share Posted March 6, 2016 The Forgeworld model is wonderful, but isn't quite right for use as his 40k version... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carrack Posted March 6, 2016 Share Posted March 6, 2016 Abaddon also has some little known talents that you may not have heard of. I use "talent" loosely. :) http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/319201-epic-rap-battles-of-the-grim-dark-future/?do=findComment&comment=4312341 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khornestar Posted March 6, 2016 Author Share Posted March 6, 2016 ISO 30 seconds of my life back after reading that post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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