b1soul Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 OK... Blood Ravens (TSons) Minotaurs (World Eaters or Iron Warriors) What others and what's the evidence? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/319392-evidence-that-traitor-legions-begat-loyalist-chapters/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doctor Perils Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 Some have speculated that Silver Sons were also descended from Iron Warriors, but I'm really not sure about that. No evidence either. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/319392-evidence-that-traitor-legions-begat-loyalist-chapters/#findComment-4310262 Share on other sites More sharing options...
furstyferret Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 It makes perfect sense that there would be several Iron Warrior successor chapters out there that were always loyal. After all, they garrisoned hundreds of worlds, many of which were probably so isolated (for one reason or another) and had no idea what was going on until the Heresy was almost over. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/319392-evidence-that-traitor-legions-begat-loyalist-chapters/#findComment-4310265 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonidas Noxar Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 Is it confirmed that the Blood Ravens are related to the Thousand Sons, as in officially? As far as I've always heard its speculation and (fan)theories that suggest this, not FW/BL or GW. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/319392-evidence-that-traitor-legions-begat-loyalist-chapters/#findComment-4310337 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sol_Invictus Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 Is it confirmed that the Blood Ravens are related to the Thousand Sons, as in officially? As far as I've always heard its speculation and (fan)theories that suggest this, not FW/BL or GW. Also wondering if this has been proven/confirmed. And the same for the Minotaurs. Do we truly have evidence or is it just speculation? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/319392-evidence-that-traitor-legions-begat-loyalist-chapters/#findComment-4310359 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hesh Kadesh Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 Can anyone evidence Iron Warriors for Minotaurs? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/319392-evidence-that-traitor-legions-begat-loyalist-chapters/#findComment-4310367 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 No, it's all just hinted... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/319392-evidence-that-traitor-legions-begat-loyalist-chapters/#findComment-4310369 Share on other sites More sharing options...
God-Potato of Mankind Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 I don't think there's any evidence for any of this. It seems likely that there were large contingents of Astartes Loyalists from Traitor Legions though, who prove their loyalty during the Heresy. Though I imagine it becomes more unlikely they were formed into their own Chapter, even more unlikely is that they're true IW/WE as there's no way they'd keep that Legion's geneseed. It seems more likely that any surviving Loyalist traitors would be folded into existing Legions or Chapters or seconded to shadowy things like the Inquisition. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/319392-evidence-that-traitor-legions-begat-loyalist-chapters/#findComment-4310370 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Hands Fanatic Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 I don't think there's any evidence for any of this. It seems likely that there were large contingents of Astartes Loyalists from Traitor Legions though, who prove their loyalty during the Heresy. Though I imagine it becomes more unlikely they were formed into their own Chapter, even more unlikely is that they're true IW/WE as there's no way they'd keep that Legion's geneseed. It seems more likely that any surviving Loyalist traitors would be folded into existing Legions or Chapters or seconded to shadowy things like the Inquisition. I'm pretty sure there's background somewhere which states that the Mechanicum possesses stock of all the Legions' geneseed - even the traitors. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/319392-evidence-that-traitor-legions-begat-loyalist-chapters/#findComment-4310375 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 Yes, the background does state they have stocks from all Primarchs, even the traitors. The Minotaurs were founded by the order of the High Lord of Terra and are shrouded in mystery. They were created, somewhat heretically, to serve the High Lord and carry out their bidding. It wouldn't be too much of a stretch for them to have been created using the gene-seed of Angron, as their main purpose is mindless enforcers. The Blood Ravens have an un-usually high number of potent Psykers and don't know who their Primarch is... hinted that it's Magnus. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/319392-evidence-that-traitor-legions-begat-loyalist-chapters/#findComment-4310376 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doctor Perils Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 Yes, the background does state they have stocks from all Primarchs, even the traitors. The Minotaurs were founded by the order of the High Lord of Terra and are shrouded in mystery. They were created, somewhat heretically, to serve the High Lord and carry out their bidding. It wouldn't be too much of a stretch for them to have been created using the gene-seed of Angron, as their main purpose is mindless enforcers. The Blood Ravens have an un-usually high number of potent Psykers and don't know who their Primarch is... hinted that it's Magnus. The Blood Ravens also hoard knowledge of all kinds worse then the Mechanicum. GW will never confirm that there are loyalist successors of traitors, as it would be complicated to justify it in universe. However, they do like mystery and leaving some measure of freedom for DIYs. That's not to say that DIYs should blatantly state that their chapter is descended from a traitor without serious EXTERMINATUS aimed at them :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/319392-evidence-that-traitor-legions-begat-loyalist-chapters/#findComment-4310391 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jareddm Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 Can anyone evidence Iron Warriors for Minotaurs? I can. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/319392-evidence-that-traitor-legions-begat-loyalist-chapters/#findComment-4310395 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atia Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 Can anyone evidence Iron Warriors for Minotaurs? I can. also: I'd be interested in as to why 'Iron Warriors' are the Minotaurs influence. Honestly, they ring more as Luna Wolves/Sons of Horus, and possibky owe a bit more to Loken abd their style than anything else, as opposed to dig in, win through attrition. I don't think that the Minotaurs know, of course. The Minotaurs prefer to operate as a whole, or at least in as few divisions of its forces as possible in any given theater of war, concentrating and thereby maximising its destructive power. This strategy has allowed the Chapter to excel at siegecraft and in combat against monstrous opponents, which they can overwhelm by sheer weight of numbers if need be. Unlike most Space Marine Chapters, some of the Minotaurs' key tactics are partly dependent on the use of superior attrition within a confined area of engagement, the Chapter's commanders perhaps less mindful of the fate of their Battle-Brothers than some, so long as victory is achieved. Two significant factors aid the Minotaurs in their chosen pattern of warfare; their excellent supplies of heavy arms and war machinery and a markedly rapid influx of new Neophytes to replace ongoing losses due to attrition. The exact source of their war material has remained unconfirmed, but they have been observed to operate using large and replenishing stockpiles of tanks and heavy armour (primarily Vindicators and Predators as tactical support vehicles). The Minotaurs have also been observed to have widespread access to supplies of the advanced Mark VIII "Errant" Power Armour, and commonly field much of their 1st Company as Terminators in combat. During the Orphean War the Chapter was observed to field no less than ten Contemptor Pattern Dreadnoughts, indicating that the Minotaurs possess an unusual number of this ancient Dreadnought pattern in their armoury. We also have a highly greecian influence, aswell as their rules are pretty much the same (Minotaurs Chapter tactics and IW Legion rules) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/319392-evidence-that-traitor-legions-begat-loyalist-chapters/#findComment-4310411 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hesh Kadesh Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 I can't read that. Edit; seems circumstatial at best. That reads more to me in the context of the High Lords support that they have someone typing 'pepperoni pizza/quarry/lumberjack', in as much as someone typed in 'hoyohoyo' for Erebus. As in 'mad resources, yo' Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/319392-evidence-that-traitor-legions-begat-loyalist-chapters/#findComment-4310413 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 I can't read that. Apparently Allan Bligh said they are Iron Warrior descendants. I always assumed they were World Eaters :-/ But yes, the Greek theme does fit Iron Warriors. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/319392-evidence-that-traitor-legions-begat-loyalist-chapters/#findComment-4310415 Share on other sites More sharing options...
1ncarnadine Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 Apparently Allan Bligh said they are Iron Warrior descendants. I always assumed they were World Eaters :-/ But yes, the Greek theme does fit Iron Warriors. When/where was this? I honestly still don't really buy it. I know he knows, but it doesn't feel like one of the things he would actually confirm. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/319392-evidence-that-traitor-legions-begat-loyalist-chapters/#findComment-4310418 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 Sorry, not confirmed but hinted at. Like we've all said, nothing will be categorically stated. It's up to us to believe what we chose... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/319392-evidence-that-traitor-legions-begat-loyalist-chapters/#findComment-4310424 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malios Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 There's a picture in book 6 of a "blackshield" astartes in mkV armour that looks remarkably similar to the carcharodons of the Badab War... It's most likely coincidence... but it is an awesome coincidence. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/319392-evidence-that-traitor-legions-begat-loyalist-chapters/#findComment-4310426 Share on other sites More sharing options...
2gud2bbad Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 Iron Warriors remind me rather of WWI Germans with their trench warfare/Artillery/Attrition Philosophy. How do you connect them to greek history? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/319392-evidence-that-traitor-legions-begat-loyalist-chapters/#findComment-4310429 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 Iron Warriors remind me rather of WWI Germans with their trench warfare/Artillery/Attrition Philosophy. How do you connect them to greek history? They come from Olympia, they are styled in a Greek-ish way. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/319392-evidence-that-traitor-legions-begat-loyalist-chapters/#findComment-4310430 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fury_of_Fenris Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 I could imagine that the imperium would use traitor geneseed, or at least continue on loyalist element folding them into chapters I mean any and all marines are susceptible to falling to chaos or generally becoming a traitor. I doubt geneseed has that much of an influence really, I mean it was more or less the influence of Primarchs, Lodges and in my opinion suspect recruits Particularly some of the :cussty worlds the Primarchs came from and i doubt after a couple thousand years any of them would even remember from where they were descended. From the heresy book six with the blackshields and whatnot it seems the heresy was not as clear cut as we thought, it seem's much more desperate and there is quite an amount of leeway marines are given if they fall out of good graces Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/319392-evidence-that-traitor-legions-begat-loyalist-chapters/#findComment-4310436 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jareddm Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 I can't read that. Edit; seems circumstatial at best. That reads more to me in the context of the High Lords support that they have someone typing 'pepperoni pizza/quarry/lumberjack', in as much as someone typed in 'hoyohoyo' for Erebus. As in 'mad resources, yo' In all honesty, I don't have the slightest clue what you just typed. Also you can click the picture to make it bigger. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/319392-evidence-that-traitor-legions-begat-loyalist-chapters/#findComment-4310438 Share on other sites More sharing options...
totgeboren Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 The Silver Skulls could be of IW decent too, but their background now is that they like divination and head-taking, so they don't have much in common with the IW. They do share the paintjob and (more or less) the heraldry, have an unknown origin but have fought with the UM successor chapters since their creation (second founding). We know that quite a few IW garrisons did not side with their legion, and some that survived this were hanging out with the UM during the HH. 10k years is a long time for an organisation to change traditions, especially if they recruit from a new world, and would actively try do distance themselves from their past. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/319392-evidence-that-traitor-legions-begat-loyalist-chapters/#findComment-4310451 Share on other sites More sharing options...
1ncarnadine Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 Sorry, not confirmed but hinted at. Like we've all said, nothing will be categorically stated. It's up to us to believe what we chose... Fair enough. I think the Greek connection is certainly there, but still kind of a thin link. The Minotaurs are very specifically Sparta-themed, and Sparta is admittedly Greek. I think people have also made a connection between Kyr Vhalen's Iron Warriors from Paramar using bronzed elements? Also kind of a stretch to me. I think what keeps me from buying it fully is the big section they include in Badab Vol2 and the Fall of Orpheus books that goes over the 21st Founding history bits, and then references chimeric geneseed a bunch. That's a lot of time to spend on an irrelevant mislead. Although Ead Brown, who did/does playtesting for Alan Bligh, did play Minotaurs and then switched to Iron Warriors in 30k. So they may be trying to add the link. Who knows. The Silver Skulls could be of IW decent too, but their background now is that they like divination and head-taking, so they don't have much in common with the IW. I could say the same between the Executioners and the Imperial Fists. Thousands of years makes a difference. There's a picture in book 6 of a "blackshield" astartes in mkV armour that looks remarkably similar to the carcharodons of the Badab War... It's most likely coincidence... but it is an awesome coincidence. Well... other than being greyish and being in MkV I think that's about as far as that connection goes. For anyone else, it's a Black Shield noted as being from the Gerasene Host. Most members of the host make use of an 'L' sigil in their iconography. I'm not sure what the relevance of the patterns on the studded pad are but it's not the same as the Polynesian art at all. They also seem to be traitor-aligned. Googling Gerasene was interesting. I think I know what the L stands for Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/319392-evidence-that-traitor-legions-begat-loyalist-chapters/#findComment-4310463 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hesh Kadesh Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 I can't read that. Edit; seems circumstatial at best. That reads more to me in the context of the High Lords support that they have someone typing 'pepperoni pizza/quarry/lumberjack', in as much as someone typed in 'hoyohoyo' for Erebus. As in 'mad resources, yo' In all honesty, I don't have the slightest clue what you just typed. Also you can click the picture to make it bigger. Age of Empires resource cheats and Super Priests. I'm not sure who this Eadwine Brown is, though to speak with any authority. This is headcanon, and loose connections. Battle Tactics are similar? It seems more like in the context that they are better at operating on a level more akin to how legions used to operate. Despite 8,000 years of difference, as well. Not to mention that absolutely nothing has shown how they operate in siege situations. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/319392-evidence-that-traitor-legions-begat-loyalist-chapters/#findComment-4310469 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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