Evidence that Traitor Legions Begat Loyalist Chapters

[Jareddm]

Age of Empires resource cheats and Super Priests.

 

I'm not sure who this Eadwine Brown is, though to speak with any authority. This is headcanon, and loose connections. Battle Tactics are similar? It seems more like in the context that they are better at operating on a level more akin to how legions used to operate.

 

Despite 8,000 years of difference, as well. Not to mention that absolutely nothing has shown how they operate in siege situations.

He was a FW proofreader and playtester as well as FW customer service manager. I don't have my copy of IA10 around, but he is listed as such in Betrayal, Massacre, and Extinction.

[Rob P]

A case can be put forward that certain loyal chapters have spawned from loyalists from traitor legions or the geneseed stocks of traitor legions. Equally, I think there is a case for the view that no loyalists chapters come from traitor stock. I think it's wrong to assert that particularly aggressive chapters spawned from traitor stock but it's possible.

 

Fundamentally there is a lack of concrete evidence which means that this topic (which is strikingly similar to the thread 'Later Founding Chapters traceable to the Great Crusade/HH') will not result in a consensus.

 

Doesn't mean it's not fun to throw ideas around though

[Hesh Kadesh]

 

Age of Empires resource cheats and Super Priests.

 

I'm not sure who this Eadwine Brown is, though to speak with any authority. This is headcanon, and loose connections. Battle Tactics are similar? It seems more like in the context that they are better at operating on a level more akin to how legions used to operate.

 

Despite 8,000 years of difference, as well. Not to mention that absolutely nothing has shown how they operate in siege situations.

He was a FW proofreader and playtester as well as FW customer service manager. I don't have my copy of IA10 around, but he is listed as such in Betrayal, Massacre, and Extinction.

He was :cuss at his job then.

[Jareddm]

 

 

Age of Empires resource cheats and Super Priests.

 

I'm not sure who this Eadwine Brown is, though to speak with any authority. This is headcanon, and loose connections. Battle Tactics are similar? It seems more like in the context that they are better at operating on a level more akin to how legions used to operate.

 

Despite 8,000 years of difference, as well. Not to mention that absolutely nothing has shown how they operate in siege situations.

He was a FW proofreader and playtester as well as FW customer service manager. I don't have my copy of IA10 around, but he is listed as such in Betrayal, Massacre, and Extinction.

He was :cuss at his job then.

Then so were Alan Bligh, John French, Neil Wylie, Stephen Morris, Kenton Mills, Laurie Goulding, Rachel Docherty, Tris Buckroyd, Paul Mooney, Graeme Lyon, Nick Kyme, Christian Dunn, Talima Fox, and Lindsey Priestly.

[Spinsanity]

Looking at the new HH cannon, I find it somewhat hard to believe that traitor geneseed wouldn't ever have been used afterwards to sire new chapters. After all, we know geneseed itself was no indicator of allegiance, that some sired from Horus' allies did remain loyal, and that some sired by loyalist primarchs did turn traitor (or go rogue, whatever, from a post-HH Imperial standpoint that's one and the same).

 

Considering this, except to convince the population into thinking the loyal Legions and all the chapters they sired are beyond any possible doubt, would there be any reason to not use the traitor geneseed? And if the only purpose is to convince the people, then is there a reason to not do it and simply pretend you're not?

[Slips]

Strike 1, People. We're here to talk about Evidence that Traitor Legions that Begat Loyalist Chapters.

 

Not whether or not a person as a Proof Reader was good at their job or not or any other mundane, Off-Topic Subject.

 

Keep it On-Topic or don't even bother posting.

[lokkorex]

Could somebody what "chimeric" means?

 

I think gw deliberately let the the fluff be kinda vague on the 13th and 21st foundings, just so players could come up with chapters that had gene-seed which had been tampered with.

 

Looking at some of the fluff and models fw have put out, they ain't exactly subtle sometimes.

 

Carcharadons and the raven guard contemptor anyone? Nudge nudge,say no more, say no more, eh?

 

Don't have the relevant white dwarf to hand, but isn't the blood ravens spiritual father named arvida in their index astartes?

[Atia]

Looking at the new HH cannon, I find it somewhat hard to believe that traitor geneseed wouldn't ever have been used afterwards to sire new chapters. After all, we know geneseed itself was no indicator of allegiance, that some sired from Horus' allies did remain loyal, and that some sired by loyalist primarchs did turn traitor (or go rogue, whatever, from a post-HH Imperial standpoint that's one and the same).

Considering this, except to convince the population into thinking the loyal Legions and all the chapters they sired are beyond any possible doubt, would there be any reason to not use the traitor geneseed? And if the only purpose is to convince the people, then is there a reason to not do it and simply pretend you're not?

Indeed, there is no black and white anymore.

We have loyalists from traitor Legions already (Kyr Vhalen, Garro and friends, Istvaan loyalists, loyal Dusk Raiders, loyal Emperors Children, loyal Iron Warrior garnissons, even loyal World Eaters without butchers nails ....) - there is no reason they couldn't become loyalist chapters later on^^

Carcharadons and the raven guard contemptor anyone? Nudge nudge,say no more, say no more, eh?

Carcharodons ARE pre Corax XIX legion - the XIX legion even had the Nicor

Could somebody what "chimeric" means?

weird geneseed that likes it to mutate, basically a term for crazy bad weirdo geneseed, mostly experiments ^.^

Don't have the relevant white dwarf to hand, but isn't the blood ravens spiritual father named arvida in their index astartes?

The White Scars picked up a Corvidae survivor from Prospero - and they had the raven as chapter icon after all ;)

[God-Potato of Mankind]

I still think people would baulk at using Traitor Legion geneseed, especially after the Siege when they went all "WE HEAR YOU LIKE GREATER DAEMONS, BROTHERS!" and the loyalists went all "ohhh nuuuuu"

 

Existing Astartes, who have proven their loyalty, sure. Perhaps even some Second Foundings got some, but one of the main facets of grimdark Warhammer is genetic purity. It might not have been till a few thousand years later but the general consensus would probably be "Traitor Geneseed? Oh nuuuuu". It's qutie clear gene-seed affected the character of the Legionaries, but it's also clear that the Legion's influence (be it Primarch or culture) also affected the character of the Legionaries; so I guess it's not so clear cut.

 

Considering the dank level of suspicion levied on Garro et al, do you really think the Imperium would want to raise new Astartes forces from Traitor Geneseed though? Also factor in how poorly understood Chaos is, even in the 41st millenium. How do they know it's not the geneseed? The loyalist traitors might have overcome it via force of will or faith. It just seems like a huge uncertainty that isn't worth the risk. Better to break up the existing Legions, rather than raising a buttload more Astartes after the Heresy.

[Hesh Kadesh]

Perhaps the genetic purity of legions is precisely monitored because of that, and if they don't, there is the big hoohah like Badab.

[Spinsanity]

This now has me wondering just WHAT lineage the Claws' seed really was from :)

[1ncarnadine]

 

 

 

Could somebody what "chimeric" means?

weird geneseed that likes it to mutate, basically a term for crazy bad weirdo geneseed, mostly experiments ^.^

 

 

Yep. It could imply the geneseed is even from numerous sources or spliced together. 

 

 

 

Indeed, there is no black and white anymore.

 

We have loyalists from traitor Legions already (Kyr Vhalen, Garro and friends, Istvaan loyalists, loyal Dusk Raiders, loyal Emperors Children, loyal Iron Warrior garnissons, even loyal World Eaters without butchers nails ....) - there is no reason they couldn't become loyalist chapters later on^^

 

 

There's also the possibility that some of the loyalists from traitor legions or black shield forces didn't actually live on, and were put down in the Scouring due to paranoia/witch-hunting. But then their gene-seed was harvested and stored anyway... maybe mis-labeled along the way...

 

That's probably the history behind at least a few chapters. Maybe the Minotaurs, maybe not. I think the Minotaurs in particular will be one of those that may never see a more concrete link explored (unlike stuff like the Carcharadons where it's now like, oh, duh, nomad predation fleets). They'll keep us guessing on some of these forever. It's Alan Bligh's job security :P

[Ishagu]

But it's also common knowledge that the Gene-seed in the 41st millennium has started to degrade.

Do we really think all of the High Lords of Terra share the same superstitions as the common, un-educated Imperium citizen?

 

I think that it's plausible, if not likely, that some chapters were created using traitor gene-seed, possibly just as an experiment.

[Ganders]

Is it ever established what happened to Garro's men from the Eisenstein? I remember in the old IA article it talked about Garro and the 70 men and it said no-one was sure what happened to them (They were either forgotten about in the cells under the palace/they went on a crusade to 'cure' their old legion/Garro became Lord of the Flies).

I heard a rumour that they were now the wardens on Titan and in The Last Rememberancer , Icaton Cruze (sp?) mentions he is one of the few men to have seen their faces. (He was on the Eisenstein with Garro and his men).

 

Is this established anywhere? I have read most of the HH books but I avoid the audios.

[Jareddm]

I guess I'm still someone who prefers finding non-geneseed related explanations when at all possible. The Minotaurs, Thousand Sons, and most 21st founding chapters aside. But for a chapter like the Red Scorpions, it just doesn't work for me. I prefer their reason for apothecary veneration to be something tied to their actual history, not just lineage. I look at the Storm Wardens and Crimson Sabres as examples. Neither chapter's lineage was in question. Yet following the Nemesis Incident and the Amalgamathian Schism respectively, each sealed their chapter's records by their own actions, rather than it being forced upon them by their heritage. I feel the Red Scorpions may be in a similar situation. Now of course if more evidence of the Red Scorpion's heritage is released, I'll reevaluate my position, but until then I still feel they have the weakest evidence for traitor geneseed.

[blackoption]

Is it ever established what happened to Garro's men from the Eisenstein? I remember in the old IA article it talked about Garro and the 70 men and it said no-one was sure what happened to them (They were either forgotten about in the cells under the palace/they went on a crusade to 'cure' their old legion/Garro became Lord of the Flies).

I heard a rumour that they were now the wardens on Titan and in The Last Rememberancer , Icaton Cruze (sp?) mentions he is one of the few men to have seen their faces. (He was on the Eisenstein with Garro and his men).

 

Is this established anywhere? I have read most of the HH books but I avoid the audios.

 

Which is a little ironic, as Garro's stories have continued via audio books only.  Short answer: He now leads the Knights Errant. As for Garro's men, either black shield or knight errant have been the choices I've gathered.  I don't remember it ever stating clearly, but the impressions I have is that most followed Garro's example.

 

Back to original topic:  As others have said, GW (and by proxy FW) will never completely tell the 100% truth.  However, they like to leave clues.  Clues are not definitive, but they are enough for some to feed one's imagination.  Personally, I believe the Red Scorpions have too many similarities to pre fall EC for there not to be a connection.  That connection might just be teachings and outlook, but it might be gene seed deep.  I am pretty much convinced that the Minotaurs are Iron Warrior decendants and the Blood Ravens are loyal sons of Magnus. 

 

The one thing I really like about loyal sons of traitor legions is that it shows, that even in all the grim darkness of 40k, people can rise above their roots and forge their own path.  Chaos is all about forging one's own path, but that path is a hollow one to me.  Loyalists overcoming the tests where their primarchs and brothers failed.... it is poetic to me.

[Calas Typhon]

Is it ever established what happened to Garro's men from the Eisenstein? I remember in the old IA article it talked about Garro and the 70 men and it said no-one was sure what happened to them (They were either forgotten about in the cells under the palace/they went on a crusade to 'cure' their old legion/Garro became Lord of the Flies).

I heard a rumour that they were now the wardens on Titan and in The Last Rememberancer , Icaton Cruze (sp?) mentions he is one of the few men to have seen their faces. (He was on the Eisenstein with Garro and his men).

 

Is this established anywhere? I have read most of the HH books but I avoid the audios.

There is a new short story: Ghosts speak not which adresses this.

 

Basically they are in a state of limbo at the moment, Loyal forces have no clue what to do with them and so they are locked away on Luna in permanent battle readiness. It is clear they wish to settle some disputes with Mortarion from what we gather so the story of what happens next is wide open.

 

It also addresses what happens to one of the main participants in The Flight of the Eisenstein.

[totgeboren]

The Silver Skulls could be of IW decent too, but their background now is that they like divination and head-taking, so they don't have much in common with the IW.

I could say the same between the Executioners and the Imperial Fists. Thousands of years makes a difference.

They still have that 'self-mutilation' theme going on at least.

Oh, and about 'chimeric' geneseed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chimeric_gene

And of course an obligatory cat pic.

I think GW have used the term like for the cat above, where the idea is that say the part of the geneseed that controls for example muscle development comes from a different source than the geneseed that controls skin pigmentation or something like that.

[rendingon1+]

That cat should be called Deathstroke :)

http://www.x-costume.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/dmask.jpg

[Plasmablasts]

'Chimaerism' is a widely used term in medicine/genetics to describe a mixture derived from two or more different sources. The root of the term is of course the mythical Chimaera (part lion, part goat and part snake). In bone marrow transplantation, for example, chimaerism is measured in terms of the proportions of blood cells which are derived from the patient and from the donor. So chimeric geneseed will be derived from more than one geneseed lineage.

[SkimaskMohawk]

So we've established that there's in fact no concrete evidence for descendants of traitors, just hearsay and circumstance; forgeworld prefers hints and possibilities to absolute declarations.

 

Kind of expected more when the OP asks for evidence, but then it itself just contained value statements 

[Spinsanity]

'Chimaerism' is a widely used term in medicine/genetics to describe a mixture derived from two or more different sources. The root of the term is of course the mythical Chimaera (part lion, part goat and part snake). In bone marrow transplantation, for example, chimaerism is measured in terms of the proportions of blood cells which are derived from the patient and from the donor. So chimeric geneseed will be derived from more than one geneseed lineage.

So, basically, every single space marine ever is chimeric since their genetics is a made up mix of their original human self and their predecessor's progenoid...

[Wachaza]

Is it the geneseed that leads to treason and chaos or the influence of malign powers on the traitor primarchs? Obviously a 40k World Eater would have chaos tainted gene-seed but a 30k one from before the heresy? Clearly the Word Bearers geneseed stock would be chaos tainted from early on but the rest would be largely unexposed to corruption. It's only the post Isstvaan traitors in most of the Legions who start to be exposed to Chaos. There's the potential for a big stock of "clean" geneseed at around the start of the heresy from the Imperial Legions even ignoring the possibility of founding chapters from proven Loyalists in the Traitor Legion ranks.

 

The most likely loyalists in the traitor Legions are the old Terran legionaries who would have the purest and most stable examples of geneseed as first generation copies. Geneseed drawn from those sources, Warhounds, Dusk Raiders and the like wouldn't have a "taint" even if one could be detected in later World Eaters or Deathguard. I'm sure over the millennia some Magos Biologis would have convinced a Lord of Terra to Found a chapter using this "pure" pre-heresy stock they found in some store or other.

 

I've not read Retribution as yet but are there any predestination teasers there?

[Plasmablasts]

 

'Chimaerism' is a widely used term in medicine/genetics to describe a mixture derived from two or more different sources. The root of the term is of course the mythical Chimaera (part lion, part goat and part snake). In bone marrow transplantation, for example, chimaerism is measured in terms of the proportions of blood cells which are derived from the patient and from the donor. So chimeric geneseed will be derived from more than one geneseed lineage.

So, basically, every single space marine ever is chimeric since their genetics is a made up mix of their original human self and their predecessor's progenoid...

Assuming that the geneseed doesn't entirely displace the host genome, yes.

[Terminus]

All those loyalists from traitor legions had to go somewhere, and someone has to train all those noobs, and since they couldn't wear their old colors anymore, a new founding seems like a perfect opportunity to "bolster the ranks".

 

They probably just attributed most of them as Ultramarine successors to throw off suspicion and deflect all the ire on Guilliman.  Everyone would be like, "Of course, he would have a bunch more successors and resources, that pompous prick/courageous hero/sector emperor!"