Evidence that Traitor Legions Begat Loyalist Chapters

[Brofist]

Yeah the Red Scorpions are one that always comes to mind.

 

Iron Warriors remind me rather of WWI Germans with their trench warfare/Artillery/Attrition Philosophy. How do you connect them to greek history?

Many of of their special units and ranks are named using ancient Seleucid or other Hellenistic words. Not Greek, but pretty dang close.

[Harleqvin]

Before Dawn of War got the hatchet it looked heavily that they were going to state the Blood Ravens were from TSons, iirc.

Is it the geneseed that leads to treason and chaos or the influence of malign powers on the traitor primarchs? Obviously a 40k World Eater would have chaos tainted gene-seed but a 30k one from before the heresy? Clearly the Word Bearers geneseed stock would be chaos tainted from early on but the rest would be largely unexposed to corruption. It's only the post Isstvaan traitors in most of the Legions who start to be exposed to Chaos. There's the potential for a big stock of "clean" geneseed at around the start of the heresy from the Imperial Legions even ignoring the possibility of founding chapters from proven Loyalists in the Traitor Legion ranks.

 

The most likely loyalists in the traitor Legions are the old Terran legionaries who would have the purest and most stable examples of geneseed as first generation copies. Geneseed drawn from those sources, Warhounds, Dusk Raiders and the like wouldn't have a "taint" even if one could be detected in later World Eaters or Deathguard. I'm sure over the millennia some Magos Biologis would have convinced a Lord of Terra to Found a chapter using this "pure" pre-heresy stock they found in some store or other.

 

I've not read Retribution as yet but are there any predestination teasers there?

The geneseed from traitor legions were more susceptible to becoming Chaos Tainted. From what everything has been shown.




Also, Ultramrines have been given a hinted at reason why they had so many more successors, It's been said once or twice in the HH novels that after the "Legions who may not be named" disappeared that the Ultramarines numbers vastly expanded. Hence why they had so many marines.

[blackoption]

 

Also, Ultramrines have been given a hinted at reason why they had so many more successors, It's been said once or twice in the HH novels that after the "Legions who may not be named" disappeared that the Ultramarines numbers vastly expanded. Hence why they had so many marines.

 

Ok.. Every time I see this disinformation, I feel the need to remind people that even the author has stated, on these boards, that the Word Bearers discussing the size of the Ultramarines were using a slanderous rumors with no basis in fact.  While it was a cool little conspiracy theory for a while, it was never meant to be a credible theory, merely two spiteful marines talking smack.

[Terminus]

 

Also, Ultramrines have been given a hinted at reason why they had so many more successors, It's been said once or twice in the HH novels that after the "Legions who may not be named" disappeared that the Ultramarines numbers vastly expanded. Hence why they had so many marines.

 

Ok.. Every time I see this disinformation, I feel the need to remind people that even the author has stated, on these boards, that the Word Bearers discussing the size of the Ultramarines were using a slanderous rumors with no basis in fact.  While it was a cool little conspiracy theory for a while, it was never meant to be a credible theory, merely two spiteful marines talking smack.

Even the book tried to dispel this rumour before it started, but people cling to any notion that lets them believe that the Ultramarines weren't simply that good with Papa Smurf at the head.

[DuskRaider]

Geneseed isn't susceptible to Chaos taint, man is. It's not the genetics that caused the Legions to embrace Chaos, it was hubris, greed, power, desperation, and revenge. The only reason the Imperium believes the Geneseed is tainted is because they are highly superstitious.

[Sircyn]

Book six does tell the story of the Ashen Claws, a nomad predation fleet who create a second crusade on the edge of the galaxy that survives beyond the scouring at least.

 

Another interesting titbit is that the guy who intercepts the transmissions coming out of the darkness is none other than Crysos Morturg, which suggests that these loyalists from the traitor legions are put to use during and after the Heresy.

 

Throw into the mix the endless numbers of black shields who may or may not rejoin the imperium closer or further away from the 31st millienium does give great credence to the opportunities for various disparate sources of modern chapters.

 

It's plausible that some shattered Legion formations get rolled into chapters rather than rejoin their parent legions.

 

I doubt too much light will be shed on this to encourage room for our own ideas, but there are loads of tantalising hints and threads laid out in the shadow wars of the Horus Heresy and subsequent repercussions in the scouring that could bear fruit in the future.

[b1soul]

After all, we know geneseed itself was no indicator of allegiance, that some sired from Horus' allies did remain loyal, and that some sired by loyalist primarchs did turn traitor (or go rogue, whatever, from a post-HH Imperial standpoint that's one and the same).

I think Heresy-era Loyalist Legion traitors and post-Heresy renegade chapters (e.g. some Ultramarine successor gone traitor/Chaos) are quite rare, no?

[Viridia]

I always keep wondering why people say Silver Skulls are Iron Warriors descendants. Okay, they share a skull, but so what? Then I realised that the Silver Skulls follow the oracle practise of the ancient Greeks. But let's be honest, if everything with Greek influence is IW-related, then surely the Ultramarines are also Iron Warriors?

[Wachaza]

Geneseed isn't susceptible to Chaos taint, man is. It's not the genetics that caused the Legions to embrace Chaos, it was hubris, greed, power, desperation, and revenge. The only reason the Imperium believes the Geneseed is tainted is because they are highly superstitious.

I'd think the geneseed of a 40k Deathguard would be more than a little tainted, both by chaos and infectious diseases. I'd agree at the start of the heresy but by the end more than a few will be chaos influenced after they embrace the great powers.

[Calas Typhon]

I always keep wondering why people say Silver Skulls are Iron Warriors descendants. Okay, they share a skull, but so what? Then I realised that the Silver Skulls follow the oracle practise of the ancient Greeks. But let's be honest, if everything with Greek influence is IW-related, then surely the Ultramarines are also Iron Warriors?

Before I continue, a lot of this information will be from the wiki and Lexi

There are a few reasons, first of, they are a second founding which is pretty key, since Dantioch and his Iron Warriors were held in high regards by Robute during the Heresy. There is a gap to fill in that the Iron Warriors fill quite well, possibly taken by Chaplain Zhnev or the Iron Palatine from Iron Within.

To address the Skull, it is too much of a coincidence in my view that soon after the mess of the Heresy a chapter would bear almost identical iconography to a Legion that have turned against the Emperor and acted as a barbed hook around the sectors during the scouring.

The Beliefs of the chapter resonate Iron Warriors quite a large amount. From what I have gathered. They put an almost top price on Victory no odds barred, I can't think of a Legion more suited to that than the Iron Warriors, A legion who would take tremendous losses in pursuit of it. As a prime example, The conflict with the Black Judges. They are quite a superstitious bunch too, Not really what one would expect from an Iron Warrior but it could be the case that the Vigilance/Paranoia converted to that Superstition.

As for Heraldry and Armour, they keep it simple, not flourished and "pretty". This is not as important, but they do keep things simple and to point, again this could be dragged in from the Legion by the Loyalists and passed down to the chapter.

[SalvationOfReason]

@Cthonia - there's also the (rather high) possibility that the Silver Skulls are a Chapter raised in tribute to Dantioch, who was held in high regard by Guilliman. The Chapter icon, instead of being a blatant "oh look, we're Iron Warriors" callback, is instead Dantioch's mask, immortalized for all time.

[Calas Typhon]

@Cthonia - there's also the (rather high) possibility that the Silver Skulls are a Chapter raised in tribute to Dantioch, who was held in high regard by Guilliman. The Chapter icon, instead of being a blatant "oh look, we're Iron Warriors" callback, is instead Dantioch's mask, immortalized for all time.

 

The most likely situation, lead by Zhnev or Zygmund if they are still alive. Its not like Dantioch was some minor character in the Heresy. Hell, if it was not for him the rest of the Heresy and beyond could have gone a totally different direction.

 

I can't see any stronger argument for them being of IVth Genestock.