"Legion Recon Company" Rite of War

[Caillum]

So, given this is coming up in many Tactica topics now, I think it deserves it's own topic in the Rules section.

 

The rules in question:

"Legion Recon Squads are compulsory Troops choices in the Primary Detachment."

"The force's Primary Detachment must include an additional compulsory Troops choice, which must be filled by a Legion Recon Squad."

 

There are 2 ways of looking at it:

 

1 - all 3 compulsory Troops choices must be Recon Squads,

 

OR...

 

2 - only the 3rd Troops choice must be a Recon Squad (so the other 2 can be Tacticals, Breachers or Assault Marines).

 

Let's try and keep the discussion here, and once we have a concensus, we can return to the Tactica forum for ways to use it! :)

[Hesh Kadesh]

There is no consensus. The wording is different from every other requisite for compulsory units (re Terror Squads), and the clarification on the additional recon squad, lends to suggesting that there was only 1 recon squad required, on at least 1 revision in the rules.

 

At the same time, there is no questioning that as written, 'compulsory' units are required.

 

In short, it is down to the individual whether they ignore part of either rule.

 

What I personally think they meant to write was that 'Recon Squads lose the Support Unit special rule' in place of what they wrote, but in a rules discussion it doesn't count for much. XD.

[Caillum]

Yeah, it's a bit like that. By consensus I meant some sort of clarification from FW or a universal decision to play it one way or the other. Neither option is likely to happen though. :/

[Excessus]

 

which must be filled by a Legion Recon Squad.

This part is telling how they thought imho. If only recon squads are compulsory troops, then this part would be unneccesary.

[Hesh Kadesh]

 

 

which must be filled by a Legion Recon Squad.

This part is telling how they thought imho. If only recon squads are compulsory troops, then this part would be unneccesary.

 

That's assuming it wasn't a missed rule that they forgot to edit out, or assumed wouldn't be problem after they edited it to show that Recon Squads are compulsory. 

 

Possibly from an earlier draft of the rule.

[Nusquam]

Or it could be a reminder. There's no telling.

[Lord Asvaldir]

Don't see this confusion being resolved until we have a forge world ruling on it. 

[Memento Of Prospero]

So, given this is coming up in many Tactica topics now, I think it deserves it's own topic in the Rules section.

 

The rules in question:

"Legion Recon Squads are compulsory Troops choices in the Primary Detachment."

"The force's Primary Detachment must include an additional compulsory Troops choice, which must be filled by a Legion Recon Squad."

 

 

 

 

2 seperate sentences, two seperate effects. I have underlined the key words here. an additonnal troop choice, that must be filled with a Legion Recon Squad. So only one must be a recon squad of the 3.

[Hesh Kadesh]

 

So, given this is coming up in many Tactica topics now, I think it deserves it's own topic in the Rules section.

 

The rules in question:

"Legion Recon Squads are compulsory Troops choices in the Primary Detachment."

"The force's Primary Detachment must include an additional compulsory Troops choice, which must be filled by a Legion Recon Squad."

 

 

 

 

2 seperate sentences, two seperate effects. I have underlined the key words here. an additonnal troop choice, that must be filled with a Legion Recon Squad. So only one must be a recon squad of the 3.

 

That changes nothing though. The Recon Squad, as you kindly quoted is still compulsory, when no other unit in the list is. Hence, you must fill your Compulsory slots with Recon Squads.

[Memento Of Prospero]

 

 

So, given this is coming up in many Tactica topics now, I think it deserves it's own topic in the Rules section.

 

The rules in question:

"Legion Recon Squads are compulsory Troops choices in the Primary Detachment."

"The force's Primary Detachment must include an additional compulsory Troops choice, which must be filled by a Legion Recon Squad."

 

 

 

 

2 seperate sentences, two seperate effects. I have underlined the key words here. an additonnal troop choice, that must be filled with a Legion Recon Squad. So only one must be a recon squad of the 3.

 

That changes nothing though. The Recon Squad, as you kindly quoted is still compulsory, when no other unit in the list is. Hence, you must fill your Compulsory slots with Recon Squads.

 

 

You are right, I thought for sure they were non-compulsory as standard, but this is not the case. So 3 recon squads as compulsory for the RoW it is.

[Hesh Kadesh]

They are Non Comp though without Rite of War, unless i've really missed somethi big :)

 

The annoyance with the rule is that taking the Rite of War makes them compulsory. No other unit in the list is compulsory however, merely that there are compulsory troops slots, which is a different thing.

 

There is a difference between 'May be taken as compulsory' and "are compulsory".

 

Think about it that covering your lower half is compulsory at times in public. In certain places of the public, you have a compulsory type of clothing, like say wearing a Suit.

 

Hence the unambiguity of the RAW, but that the wording is not like anything and is incredibly badly written by even FW standing.

 

And then the logic that it is a recon company because 5 Recon Marines are added to it is laughable.

[Beaky Brigade]

They are Non Comp though without Rite of War, unless i've really missed somethi big

The annoyance with the rule is that taking the Rite of War makes them compulsory. No other unit in the list is compulsory however, merely that there are compulsory troops slots, which is a different thing.

There is a difference between 'May be taken as compulsory' and "are compulsory".

Think about it that covering your lower half is compulsory at times in public. In certain places of the public, you have a compulsory type of clothing, like say wearing a Suit.

Hence the unambiguity of the RAW, but that the wording is not like anything and is incredibly badly written by even FW standing.

And then the logic that it is a recon company because 5 Recon Marines are added to it is laughable.

Recon is a pretty broad term and the different legions would define it differently. A small formation of regular troops operating independently ahead of the legions main advance could be considered a recon force, while a single squad of elite recon marines with cameleoline and advanced equipment could also be considered 'recon'. Armoured forces usually use lighter vehicles for reconnaissance, but compared to a man hiding in the bush they are not very stealthy at all. In Book 3 two of the Raven Guard colour profiles show a legionary from a Recon company who looks like a normal tactical legionary, and also a more elite 'shadow company' marine with actual recon squad armour and cameleoline.

It does not really make sense to have a whole army of elite scouts as their effectiveness would not really scale well, but of course there should be a few squads and I await forge worlds ruling on how many you have to take :)

[Sanct]

 

 

So, given this is coming up in many Tactica topics now, I think it deserves it's own topic in the Rules section.

 

The rules in question:

"Legion Recon Squads are compulsory Troops choices in the Primary Detachment."

"The force's Primary Detachment must include an additional compulsory Troops choice, which must be filled by a Legion Recon Squad."

 

 

2 seperate sentences, two seperate effects. I have underlined the key words here. an additonnal troop choice, that must be filled with a Legion Recon Squad. So only one must be a recon squad of the 3.

 

That changes nothing though. The Recon Squad, as you kindly quoted is still compulsory, when no other unit in the list is. Hence, you must fill your Compulsory slots with Recon Squads.

 

 

No they are not compulsory.  They are a compulsory Troops choice.  If you use the line that no other unit is a compulsory Troops choice and so can't be chosen you are making every other non-recon list illegal.

 

Finally read the Support Squad rule:

'...Although they are Troops choices for the Space Marine Legion army, they may not be used to fill compulsory Troops choices on a Force Organisation chart (unless a particular Legion has special rules to the contrary).'

[Hesh Kadesh]

I've already debunked that.

[Terminus]

Sadly, there is no such rule that labels something a compulsory troop choice.  There are compulsory troop slots that can be filled by troops, but some troops have the Support special rule that disallows them from qualifying for those slots. Some rites specify what those compulsory troop choices must be.

 

Note that when a special character modifies how a model can be taken, it always says, "Ashen Circle [or whatever] units may be taken as Troops choices", it never says they may be taken as "compulsory troops", because there is no such thing unless a Rite specifically calls for it.  Other examples are the Delegatus and Primarch's own rites that call for a specific choice. The terror assault rite mentioned earlier lets you take Terror Squads as troops choices AND specifies that they are compulsory choices.

 

I'd be okay playing against it as one unit though, because otherwise it's unplayable.

[Sanct]

I've already debunked that.

 

If you mean the 'There is a difference between 'May be taken as compulsory' and "are compulsory".'  then you took it out of context.  They are not compulsory.  They are a compulsory Troops choice. 

The phrasing does line up nicely with P.9 of the Crusade Army List red book by saying that the dark tone boxes in the FO means a choice there is compulsory and you must make a choice from that section (Troops in this case) [mine own bolding]

 

The support squad rule also applies value that any unit in that section can be used to fill the compulsory Troops choices (as long as it doesn't doesn't have the support squad rule) 

[shandwen]

Sanct, the issue with what you are saying is that in lacal there are no troops listed as compulsory. There are troops listed as support, but none are specifically compulsory.

The Recon co calls recon troops compulsory which overrides the ability to take tacs or whatnot in thier place.

It definitely could use a faq to clarify it but it is RAW (and for a Recon company it is almost assuredly RAI).

[Sanct]

Again, following that logic if are building a list without a rite then you cannot take breachers, tactical squads or assault squads because they are not listed as compulsory Troop choices so every list that does is now illegal.

 

EDIT: yes it is crazy logic. That was my point in saying you only have to take 1 recon squad out of 3 compulsory Troop choices in a recon rite

[Slips]

What.

 

No.

 

Thats not how that works at all.

 

You have Compulsory Troops Selections (Mandatory FoC Slots)

 

And

 

Troops that are compulsory to fill those Troops Slots.

 

The former means that, so long as its not a "Support" option, it can be used to fulfill the requirements.

 

The latter forces a specific unit selection to be taken to fulfill that slot.

 

Its the same way as HQ works. The Dreadhead RoW forces a Forge Lord and Primus Medicae as compulsory HQs and must have a Master of the Legion unit to unlock the RoW.

 

Otherwise, no HQ is compulsory so, by your logic we wouldnt ever be allowed to use any HQs ever in lists that dont force compulsory HQ selections for the very same reason.

[Terminus]

Yeah, Sanct, you're just talking crazy now. Please read my previous post or the one right above.

[pompeyladbfp]

 

 

I've already debunked that.

If you mean the 'There is a difference between 'May be taken as compulsory' and "are compulsory".' then you took it out of context. They are not compulsory. They are a compulsory Troops choice.

The phrasing does line up nicely with P.9 of the Crusade Army List red book by saying that the dark tone boxes in the FO means a choice there is compulsory and you must make a choice from that section (Troops in this case) [mine own bolding]

 

The support squad rule also applies value that any unit in that section can be used to fill the compulsory Troops choices (as long as it doesn't doesn't have the support squad rule)

You've sold me.. 1 squad it is

[Unknown Legionnaire]

Email Forge World about it, really.

[pompeyladbfp]

They said it's one, but that's just some dude from FWsales..

[Dono1979]

We are interpreting it that it is a convoluted way of removing the Support Squad rule (yes, simply losing the Support Squad rule would have been easier, but... FW), as there is already a precedent for compulsory units in the form of Breachers for the Imperial Fists Stone Gauntlet restrictions. However, as Hesh has said, a single squad of 5 Recon Marines is pretty lame, but three squads is pretty hefty.

[Noserenda]

And how does it work if the Recon Company is an Allied Detachment?  Because currently it does not?

(For reference i was going to include an allied Recon company as ground spotters for my Drop Company in bigger games)