"Legion Recon Company" Rite of War

[Dono1979]

It doesnt work, like most Rites of War, as an allied detachment and so you cannot take it.

[Count Douclar]

Doesn't the rule for support squad get over ruled, as the RoW allows them to be compulsory (the rules specifically call out primary detachment), so how I read it is the primary detachment would have to take the additional recon squad, not the allied detachment and you would have to take tacticals, assault or breachers as your troops choice. So you can do it, but it limits you.

 

On the note of how many recon squads are needed in this RoW, it would be one, as the rite says they count as compulsory, meaning they can count as one of the two compulsory troops which are needed for any list, but then you have to take a 3rd choice, which has to be them.

 

From looking at other RoWs and the force org, every basic troop (tacticals, assault and breachers) count as compulsory troops, you can't take recon or support due to their rule which denies them this. Now, if you look at certain RoWs such as: terror assault, drop assault vanguard, pride of the legion, etc, you can see that specific units are called out to be compulsory troops, so the 2 troops for any list need to be filled by these units. So unless specified, all the basic troops are in a constant state of being compulsory, this RoW allows recon marines to enter that state.

 

And if you look at the RoW for what it is, if you don't inherently get scout/infiltrate for your units, there is no advantage in taking this RoW, except for those rerolls.

[Terminus]

There is no such type of unit as "compulsory". Tactical squads, assault marines, breachers are not "compulsory troops", they are just troops without the Support rule. Compulsory means mandatory. See Terror Assault or any number of other similar rites. You are literally making up rules.

 

Maybe Legion book will make recon marines not terrible and this Rite can spread its wings.

[pompeyladbfp]

Nah only one required.. Doesn't say mandatory at any point. Tactical, assault and breachers can be used as compulsary troops.

[Terminus]

Compulsory == mandatory, that is the definition of the word.  Are you trolling at this point?

 

The slots are compulsory, not the troops themselves. Tactical, assault, and breacher marines are not compulsory troops, they are just troops. They can be used to fill compulsory troop slots on the FOC, but they are not themselves compulsory, or they would HAVE to be used. Because, again, compulsory means mandatory.

 

A FOC has two compulsory troops choices, which means you must have two MANDATORY troop choices.  You can fill these choices with any unit that counts as Troops.  Certain troops have a rule called "Support Squad" that specifically says that "although they are Troops choices, they may not be used to fill compulsory Troops choices on the Force Organization chart".

 

Note, for example, Sky Hunter Phallanx... "Jetbikes may be taken as Troops choices in a Primary Detachment using this Rite of War".  So they become regular troops like tacticals or breachers, and you can use them to fill the compulsory slots if you want.  Note it didn't say they are compulsory troops, which would mean you HAVE to take them.  Same language exists in a whole bunch of other Rites.

[Slips]

Case and point being:

• Terror Assault: Compulsory Terror Squads
• Stone Gauntlet: Compulsory Breachers
• Pride: Compulsory Vets or Terminators
• Day of Revelations: Compulsory Jump Pack Equipped Squads (AKA Assault Squads)

Unlike, say:

• Coils, Hammer of Olympia, Berserker Assault: 3 Compulsory Troops which can be any combination of: Tac, Breacher, Assault and/or any other types unlocked by Characters like: Terminators with Erasmus Golg.

The RoW has weird roundabout wording but its pretty clear that its Recons as Troops.

[pompeyladbfp]

Not trolling.. Just I don't think it's cut and shut. Fw rules are wrote by normal fallible humans

[Terminus]

That is true, but this is simply not one of those cases. And the only ones more fallible than FW authors are FW readers. :P

[pompeyladbfp]

So at least we can finally agree it's one recon unit mandatory

[Slips]

Honestly, id go about it on a gaming group basis. Talk it out with your pals and see what sticks.

 

Until we get a legit "this is what we mean" post from FW that is.

[Count Douclar]

I feel like FW should release an FAQ regarding what is compulsory and what isn't (basically making my argument valid or invalid), that would clear up the confusion.

 

But for ease, just clarifying if there is a requirement of one or three recon squads for this RoW would be nice.

[Slips]

In what way do you mean "Clarify What is Compulsory or not"?

 

Because if its in a General Sense, No unit in LA:CAL is compulsory. You only have to fill Compulsory FoC Slots with Eligible Units (Ie non-Support Officer/Squads).

 

So if the RoW states that Recon Squads are Compulsory Selections then it means they must be used to fill the 2 Compulsory Troops Slots in the FoC. No More, No Less.

 

For Example:

 

Stone Gauntlet Rite Of War: Imperial Fists

• Compulsory Troops MUST be Breacher Squads, Phalanx Warders become non-compulsory.

What this means is that in any FoC where you have Compulsory Troops Selections (Standard AoD FoC [2 slots] ZM Defender [1 slot]) You must take Breacher Squads to fill those selections before taking any other eligible Troops Selection (Phalanx Warders, Tactical Squads, Templar Brethren [if Sigismund is present] or Terminators [if Dorn is Present]).

 

vs:

 

Hammer of Olympia Rite of War: Iron Warriors

• Must take an additional compulsory Troops Selection.

What this means is that in the event that you have Compulsory Troops as part of your FoC, you must take an additional one. Ie: AoD FoC: 2 Compulsory Troops + 1 from HoO. ZM Attacker FoC: No Compulsory Troops + 1 from HoO. ZM Defender FoC: 1 Compulsory Troops + 1 from HoO.

 

However, unlike the above where the Compulsory Selection must be filled by a Specific Squad, these can be filled by any eligible unit (Tactical Squads, Assault Squads, Breachers, Terminators [Erasmus Golg Warlord])

 

So, since the Wording for this RoW is as Follows  Verbatim:

"Recon Company: Legion Recon Squads are compulsory Troops Choices in the Primary Detachment." Pg. 190 HH Book 6.

With the following in Limitations:

"The Force's Primary Detachment must include an additional Compulsory Troops choice, which must be filled by a Legion Recon Squad." Pg. 190 HH Book 6.

 

This means that, if you're using this RoW AS YOUR PRIMARY DETACHMENT You must take 3 Troops Choices (standard AoD FoC + 1) which must All be Legion Recon Squads.

If you're using this RoW AS AN ALLIED DETACHMENT You do not have an additional Compulsory Troops Choice however, you're singular compulsory Troops Selection (AoD Allied Detachment) May be a Tactical, Assault or Breacher Squad since Legion Recon Squads are not compulsory Selections.

 

Does this make everything clearer?

[Count Douclar]

The problem is the wording between are and must. The recon RoW says are, so it isn't exclusive. While the other RoWs, like the ones you have specified, say must take a specific unit, which then makes them exclusive.

 

Also where does it say regular troops (tactical, assault, breacher) are not compulsory? As you have to use them for any list, which would make them compulsory.

[Terminus]

You are splitting hairs. It doesn't need to say anywhere that they are compulsory. They are troops. A normal list has NO COMPULSORY troops, it has COMPULSORY SLOTS. You can fill them with any troop unit that doesn't have support.  Where does it say that?  It's in the rules for Support units.

[Slips]

Ok. Look, go pick up LA:CAL and go to the entries for Tactical Squad, Breacher and Assault Squad entries and tell me if anything on their Profiles mentions that they MUST be taken as troops.

 

Then look at Tactical Support and Recon Squads and look at the Support Squad Rule.

 

Nothing exists that makes Tactical Squads, Assault and Breacher Squads compulsory Selections. They can be used to fill compulsory troops slots but are otherwise not mandatory.

 

Why?

 

Because HQ's Like Dorn, Sigismund, Erasmus Golg and Horus move units that aren't ordinarily troops to that slot which thus makes these units valid selections to fill your Compulsory Troops Slots regardless of having a Rite of War in Effect or not.

 

That means that, For Example, Hammer of Olympia with its 3 Troops that has Erasmus Golg as its warlord would be perfectly legal if those 3 compulsory troops slots were filled by Terminator Squads unlocked by his being Warlord.

[Count Douclar]

I know there is nothing stating they are compulsory in their rules. I'm basically arguing anything in the troops choice, the main being the 3 without the support rule, can be used to fill that requirement or for all intents and purposes are considered compulsory. Anything that becomes troops can be used to fill that slot. I was using tactical, assault and breachers as my main example, as anything else that can be troop is due to some sort of special rule.

 

From my understanding, the recon RoW allows recon marines to fill the compulsory slot. But I don't view recon marines being exclusive to that slot, as other RoW are very clear what is exclusive to fill the compulsory slots, with the key word being must.

 

Anyway, my stance won't really change until official sources prove me wrong. I'll play my way and you play yours. I'll just discuss it with my opponent if I ever use this RoW.

[Slips]

In this case, Recon Squads are Compulsory because thats what it says in the above quote. It means they supercede Tactical/Breacher/Assault squads in terms of being Eligible Troops Selections until the Compulsory Troops Slots of the FoC (and RoW Requirements) are fulfilled.

 

Legion Recon Squads are Compulsory Troops Choices.

[...] Are Obligatory Troops [...]

[...] Are Mandatory Troops [...]

etc. with Synonyms of Compulsory.

 

You dont need to specify that they MUST be taken as troops since the use of Compulsory means the same thing. You dont have a choice in the matter but to take Recon Squads as troops until you fill all the Compulsory/Obligatory/Mandatory Troop Slots of the FoC you're using with them.

[Count Douclar]

Then why does every other RoW say must?

[Slips]

Then why does every other RoW say must?

Because they both mean the same thing.

 

I must take these.

I'm obliged to take these.

It is compulsory for me to take these.

I have no choice in the matter and am taking these with me.

 

Its literally people making a mountain out of a molehill due to them using different words that literally mean the same thing.

[Count Douclar]

But the problem is, this is the first instance where they used are instead of must. Unless I missed anything from other RoWs.

[Slips]

First instance it might be, it doesn't change the meaning of the words used at all, however.

 

Sure, its bad game design that they didn't keep the same nomenclature (I'm in Game Design and this would cause a Mess worse than minor confusion if it were to happen during Video Game Production) for this but it doesn't change the fact that both still mean the same thing.

 

Nothings changed but how they decided to express the same idea.

[Count Douclar]

From my understanding of rules design, you are suppose to keep the same nomenclature to avoid confusion and to keep things streamlined. Look at mtg for example, most of their rules keep the established nomenclatures.

 

I see your point, but still I'd like to wait for official wording.

[Slips]

Yeah, its a stupid mistake to make that due to people being conditioned to nomenclature always being the same expect it to avoid confusion even if the sentences meaning would remain the same.

 

If its that much of an issue, email Forgeworld and bring the issue up. If no one mentions it all it does is tell them "We understand Perfectly".

[Count Douclar]

Will do

[Millicant]

As I'm reviewing all these for the Battlescribe catalogues, I think I'm (unusually) a dissenting opinion.  

 

I believe that Legion Recon Company makes Reconnaissance Squads normal Troops choices, and additionally you must include one additional Troops choice which must be filled by a Reconnaissance squad.  Bottom line, one mandatory (compulsory) Reconnaissance squad.

 

My reasoning is simply that I think Forgeworld chose their words improperly.  I believe the intent was to state that "Legion Reconnaissance squads are available as compulsory troops choices in the Primary detachment," vice non-compulsory like normal (bolded added by me).  This is very much in keeping with the grammatical style of the Forgeworld writers, which is both distinct and often contains errors like this.  

 

Additionally (and I believe more convincingly), though there is some drama surrounding the word "must," I feel that is important.  I'm aware of the synonymous nature of must vs compulsory, however every other Rite of War with a similar clause contains the phrase "must be taken as compulsory Troops choices" whereas Recon Company does not.  (Stone Gauntlet is an exception, however it also still uses the phrases "must be" and "Compulsory troops choices."  Headhunter Leviathal is also kind of an exception, since it says "Must take Headhunter Kill Teams as their compulsory Troops choices" but that's so similar I hesitate to even bring it up.)

 

As always, you and your gaming group must decide.  I know where I stand on the issue, but I don't see it being much a problem for most people unless the opposing player decides that the player using Legion Recon Company should have three (or more or less depending on the Force Organization Chart in use) when he only brought one.