New base sizes

[Race Bannon]

"Adepta Sororitas" were first mentioned in Rogue Trader (page 268).  Admittedly, I had to look that up.

 

To stay on topic, OP - yes ^_^

[Acebaur]

@ Teetengee

 

A, I'd like to know where your pulling building for advantage no longer being against the rules from as I can't imagine any competition allowing it, what's to prevent somebody from putting a LR with lascannon on a six and a half foot pedestal well out of range of most guns? Or 10 Deathstrikes on 7 foot pedestals inside boxes? I'm sorry I'd like to know where your getting this from?

 

As said that is no longer a rule written in the BRB and not rebasing your models isn't going to prevent you from playing in any tournament. There are both plusses and minuses to the different base sizes. 

 

B, Your right models are to be used with the bases supplied except the 25mm base is no longer supplied with those models currently that is a 32mm base. Using this same logic what's to prevent me from using some of my old metal Leman Russ tanks they were significantly smaller then the ones provided today and by your logic I could use them and give them current weapons meaning they have a smaller footprint and an easier time hiding behind things. This really links again to A, please provide a link to where this is being said.

 

Those old Russ's are perfectly legal models and no one should be telling that person that they are trying to gain an advantage by using them. 

 

EDIT: why is w t f a cuss...

 

It's a curse because the B&C says it is, so please do not attempt to circumvent the swear filter. 

[Obeliske]

@Acebaur

 

The fact that it's no longer in the rules doesn't mean it shouldn't be done, it simply means they have either forgotten to include it or decided common sense will get people to not do it. To expand on that if somebody were to do it to obviously they would quickly run out of people to paly against. I consider modeling for an advantage to be a form of cheating and I would be very surprised to learn anybody else felt differently, the fact of the matter is still common sense must rule and having an advantage because of the way you model is cheating it's really no different then the guy who puts a wall on his base and says it gives his guys cover, or the guy with weighted dice, or the guy with the stretchy ruler. The fact of the matter is that an unfair advantage is just that, unfair. Because it's not in the rulebook doesn't make it ok to do or do they need to have rules for absolutely everything? Because I can't find the rule that says I have to breath while playing the game, or that I can't just beat the crap out of my opponent until he forfeits and I'm declared the winner.

 

Using old models could be construed as modeling for advantage, you can't argue that as it's an opinion. They were legal at one point nowhere does it say that they are no longer legal nor does it say they are. This ties into that first bit, there needs to be common sense in the game and to play otherwise leads to anarchy and nobody playing, both people involved in a game need to have the same rules that's why your supposed to talk to your opponent before starting a game.

 

As for that verbiage being considered a swear, I've edited the original post to remove it, I was unsure if that was actually supposed to be a thing or if it somehow just got overlooked with a blanket style block. I think it's weird to blanket that one as it's not really a swear nor can it be aimed at somebody, only used as a form of self expression. In my opinion you might as well pick a letter and block it as that would be much the same effect. That's just my opinion though and really we all know what they say about opinions :P

[Teetengee]

I would never consider someone using an old model cheating. Or using a different size base. Because it isn't, there is no rule banning it nor is there any rule specifying that specific version of models should be used. Depending on what size base they use I might consider it poor sportsmanship if it negatively affected my enjoyment of the game, and in any tournament ruleset (houserules) that forbid such things, it of course would be cheating.

 

As for weighted dice, that is cheating because dice needn't be weighted and weren't specified as such in the rules (where as models do need to be based but the basetype is not specified). Additionally, a dice refers to a tool which randomly determines a number by giving an equal chance to all options, where weighted modifies that definition to something else categorically, base size is a parameter change.

 

Stretchy rulers are also cheating, in no small part because the rules never mention rulers, they mention distances. If you are cheating on your distance by using a different ruler, then you aren't following the rules, and that is cheating.

Basically
Different Base sizes aren't cheating because no rule is being broken by their use. Weighted dice and Stretchy rulers are cheating because using them means you are not following the rules.

[Acebaur]

The fact that it's no longer in the rules doesn't mean it shouldn't be done, it simply means they have either forgotten to include it or decided common sense will get people to not do it. To expand on that if somebody were to do it to obviously they would quickly run out of people to paly against. I consider modeling for an advantage to be a form of cheating and I would be very surprised to learn anybody else felt differently, the fact of the matter is still common sense must rule and having an advantage because of the way you model is cheating it's really no different then the guy who puts a wall on his base and says it gives his guys cover, or the guy with weighted dice, or the guy with the stretchy ruler. The fact of the matter is that an unfair advantage is just that, unfair. Because it's not in the rulebook doesn't make it ok to do or do they need to have rules for absolutely everything? Because I can't find the rule that says I have to breath while playing the game, or that I can't just beat the crap out of my opponent until he forfeits and I'm declared the winner.

 

 

 

Well I find it surprising that you would equate something like trying to take your cover with you with not wanting to spend extra time and money and risking the possibility of damaging your models to put them on new bases. I personally have not changed any of my bases yet, and though I plan to because I like the size better I'm not in a position monetarily to rebase over 100 marines. Does that make me a cheater? According to you I could be. 

 

Using old models could be construed as modeling for advantage, you can't argue that as it's an opinion. They were legal at one point nowhere does it say that they are no longer legal nor does it say they are. This ties into that first bit, there needs to be common sense in the game and to play otherwise leads to anarchy and nobody playing, both people involved in a game need to have the same rules that's why your supposed to talk to your opponent before starting a game.

 

 

I'm sorry but this is a ridiculous notion. What if that person has owned those models from when they were current? What if they like the look or have put a lot of effort into painting and personalizing them with battle markings etc? Or what if they simply can't afford to spend $350 to replace 10 old smaller rhinos when there is nothing wrong with them besides they are small? I speak from experience with this because for a very long time I fielded an old school rhino in every single one of my games. Why? Because it was painted. Smaller tanks have disadvantages as well, the worst of with is being surrounded more easily, but also taking a smaller footprint means that you can't block enemy movement or lines of fire as easily.

 

As for that verbiage being considered a swear, I've edited the original post to remove it, I was unsure if that was actually supposed to be a thing or if it somehow just got overlooked with a blanket style block. I think it's weird to blanket that one as it's not really a swear nor can it be aimed at somebody, only used as a form of self expression. In my opinion you might as well pick a letter and block it as that would be much the same effect. That's just my opinion though and really we all know what they say about opinions

 

 

Simply picking a letter to block would result in that letter being blocked every time it was used so that's not really an option. The admins and mods deem that it is not something that we want to see on this forum and so it is part of the word filter. 

[Atia]

I should note, it's even legal to use Daemons with square bases because they originally came with them (atleast the ones i have here, who are old 1st/2nd edition models, have square ones). Same with dreadnoughts who had square bases, or no bases at all. Rogue Trader models are 100% legal if you find a rules equivalent for them (An Eddi dreadnought with CCW and Missile Launcher is still a Space Marine Dreadnought with CCW and Missile Launcher).

 

The (old) rule was always, you can use the bases the model came with. But that doesn't matters, because, and again, you don't need to believe me, but GW doesn't care for bases anymore - best case for them - you buy extra bases for your models. You can use square, round, ovale or hexagon bases, it doesn't matters at all. You could even use bases for your tanks.

 

Saying that the usage of old models is cheating ... ... really, not sure what to answer here. That's not even elitism anymore. Do limited or event only models count as "old Models" because they aren't available via their site, and so aren't allowed according to you? I guess you won't play against any (third party) conversions, because they aren't (current) GW models? My Lucius pattern Warhound got defacto replaced with the Mars pattern - so you would refuse to play against it?

[Doctor Perils]

Obeliske, please keep the Vitriol down :)

 

As it is not specified in the rules either way, you should apply two of the most important rules in the book (or in older books):

- Speak about it with your opponent ahead of time. If he allows you to play with either of the bases, fine. If not, try to come to some arrangement (ie, in the worst case scenario, roll it off on dice)

- More importantly: have fun ! (it used to be printed in the BRB, I don't know if it is now)

 

Obeliske, you don't think a player should use the smaller bases, you see it as cheating. If a player comes up to you and wants to play but he's got the old small bases, you prefer to not play then to play against his smaller bases? That means you've both lost out on the fun, surely? Otherwise, you ask him to rebase his models, but he hasn't got the money, or the time to rebase them? Do you offer to do it for him? etc...

 

 

Also, the combination of those three letters is an acronym for combination of words containing a swear word. Therefore, why wouldn't it be blocked by the swear blocker ?

[Obeliske]

@Lord Thørn

 

What vitriol sorry? I'm simply stating my opinion and while I may be overstating it I'm simply trying to explain where I'm coming from and why I think the way I do :)

 

If a player came to me and mentioned it before the game I probably wouldn't care unless the player had a reputation for being overly competitive as then I would be worried about attempts to game the rules, but for a one off chances are good I wouldn't care. I'm simply trying to warn the OP that there are people out there who could construe leaving the bases or choosing to put them on smaller bases in a certain way. For doing so however I was attacked and am simply trying to defend my position at this point.

 

I agree speaking to your opponent before a game should fix the problem and IF I had an issue with it there wouldn't be a roll off as I choose where and when to play my army as does everybody else. 

 

As to your last point... I'd probably just buy him bases if it was that bad. A bag of 32mm bases sells for 3.5$ CAD for 20 on ebay... If he's worried about damaging his models I'd be more then happy to sit down and teach him/her the proper way to remove them safely without damage, and if said person was worried about time I'd probably either offer to do it for them or explain that they have chosen the wrong hobby.

 

 

Lord Thørn I have been a great supporter of many of your posts in the past and and it's nice to hear from you, I appreciate that your talking to me in a calm manner but ultimately I'm aloud to state my opinions and ideas. Whether they are popular or not doesn't change the fact that I'm not wrong. Nowhere in any of my posts did I say that any of this is more then my opinion or that these are possibly other peoples opinions and several people seem to have taken offence to the very idea that somebody may have a different opinion then their own and the fact is that opinions are like bottoms, everybody has one, they are all different, and they all stink.

[Acebaur]

Nowhere in any of my posts did I say that any of this is more then my opinion or that these are possibly other peoples opinions and several people seem to have taken offence to the very idea that somebody may have a different opinion then their own and the fact is that opinions are like bottoms, everybody has one, they are all different, and they all stink.

 

 

No, people have taken offence because you have flat out stated that if you have your models on the old smaller size bases that you are building for a buff and that it basically amounts to cheating.  Here is your first post for reference 

 

The problem with putting them on whatever base size you want is that now your building for a buff. In melee combat only models that can get into base to base can fight with smaller bases more infantry can be moved into base combat allowing you to get more attacks in. The base size is a nerf (and while I don't understand why it is what it is now) and the first time somebody tries to play with me with 25mm bases I'll pack my :cuss and leave. I'm all for the rule of cool but base size isn't optional and is in fact building for an advantage.

 

 

I've highlighted the parts that you are stating as a fact of the rules rather than your own personal bias against smaller bases/models.

 

The BRB says on page 9 "The rules in this book assume that models are mounted on the base they are supplied with. Sometimes, a player may have models in his collection on unusually modeled bases. Some models aren't supplied with bases at all. In these cases you should always feel free to mount the model on a base of appropriate size if you wish, using models of a similar type as guidance."

[OrangeBob]

My God, this is starting to seem like American politics at its worst, as always. We're crucifying Obeliske for his initial comment and ignoring everything he's said since. I've read nothing incendiary from Obeliske since that original post and I've also read about 25 incendiary posts directed at Obelliske. Why people can't remain calm about differing base sizes is well beyond me. 

[Doctor Perils]

 

While obeliske might not have intended to sound incendiary, his posts may have been construed as such. I must say, I don't think I'd completely understood what you had meant, and your last post made this much clearer. I also think that you might have been misunderstanding what others were replying.

 

Acebaur has now found the quote from the brb, and indeed it can be seen as ambiguous.

I think this "rule"(indication may be more appropriate) should be read with emphasis on the first part : older models supplied with 25mm bases on those bases are legal. However, a newer model (supplied with 32s) that is on a 25 isn't a problem, as the sentence places a lot of emphasis on the player's choice

 

The BRB says on page 9 "The rules in this book assume that models are mounted on the base they are supplied with. Sometimes, a player may have models in his collection on unusually modeled bases. Some models aren't supplied with bases at all. In these cases you should always feel free to mount the model on a base of appropriate size if you wish, using models of a similar type as guidance."

[SickSix]

Guys, settle down, base size will be irrelevant in the near future anyways once they Sigmar 40k.

[Obeliske]

LOL Sick >.<

 

@ Acebaur

Your right. I mistyped that and didn't catch it. Thank you for pointing it out to me however to stick with your typing of the rule. While they were supplied with those 25mm bases they aren't anymore and as such they would fall into the unusually mounted portion of that rules and people should feel free to mount them on appropriate bases. I don't really read that as an option. I apply that to myself rigorously but that's my belief and there are a great number of other people out there that believe the same. I also don't expect anybody else to follow my code of conduct as it's my personal one. I do want people to realize that there are people out there who hold the rules above all else and this is a possible interpretation. 

 

The OP should know in advance the possible outcomes of choosing to put things on a 25mm base over a 32mm and vice versa before doing so. He asked a question and got a lot of opinions rather then a flat answer. According to the rules you use the base provided with the model, what if (such as in this case) depending on the model package you buy you end up with an old box? How do you mix and match 32 and 25mm bases in the same squad? How do I as your opponent know that you havn't chosen to rebase all of your 32mm models on 25s by choice for one reason or another?

 

In the end for this case the OP's question was simple and it should have been a simple thing to answer but people would rather give opinions and that leads to muddy waters. My attempts to clarify the issue didn't help and neither did others attempts to correct me (on my own opinions I might note). At this point I would honestly be surprised if the OP was still even around :P

[Teetengee]

-snip-

According to the rules you use the base provided with the model, what if (such as in this case) depending on the model package you buy you end up with an old box? How do you mix and match 32 and 25mm bases in the same squad? How do I as your opponent know that you havn't chosen to rebase all of your 32mm models on 25s by choice for one reason or another?

-snip

RAW: pt 1: You just do, coherency measurements work fine with different base sizes (look at terminator lords joined to marine units for an example predating the recent base change.) pt 2. You probably can't? That's annoying and all, but just because a rule exists doesn't mean it is terribly enforcible, unfortunately.

[Machine God]

@ Teetengee

A, I'd like to know where your pulling building for advantage no longer being against the rules from as I can't imagine any competition allowing it, what's to prevent somebody from putting a LR with lascannon on a six and a half foot pedestal well out of range of most guns?

@Obeliske - The last time I looked at the rules the Lascannon only has a 48" range so you can field to your hearts content your Land Raider on a 6' 6" pedestal, but you cannot hit anything with its guns and you cannot assault anything from it as you can only charge up to 12"!

You also have either to play outdoors or have a high ceiling! Not to mention Wobbly Model Syndrome!

EDIT: why is w t f a cuss...

See below.

@Acebaur

As for that verbiage being considered a swear, I've edited the original post to remove it, I was unsure if that was actually supposed to be a thing or if it somehow just got overlooked with a blanket style block. I think it's weird to blanket that one as it's not really a swear nor can it be aimed at somebody, only used as a form of self expression. In my opinion you might as well pick a letter and block it as that would be much the same effect. That's just my opinion though and really we all know what they say about opinions

@Obeliske - Because every man jack and his or her dog knows what the F means, even if you are Irish or Northern Irish it may have an Echo in it as the vowel, but you're a Canadian so it has a Uniform in it!

Edit: Typo.

[Halandaar]

@Obeliske

 

Seriously, playing Marines on 25mm is building for advantage?! Okay, let's just overlook the fact that for 29 of the last 30 years they've been supplied on 25mms, that several of the kits (especially among character models and Forgeworld stuff) are still supplied with 25mms now, and that it's pretty unreasonable to expect every single gamer to re-base their existing collection if they don't want to. It's not like it's a trivial prospect either; some collections can contain hundreds of infantry models, and if you've actually invested time, effort and money in making your bases look decent (or bought 3rd party resin bases) then the insinuation that you must rebase must be pretty disheartening.  And it's not just a matter of "bases are only $3.50 for 20"; what about the flock, sand, cork, resin detail, static grass tufts, plasticard, putty, paint and time that can go in to really good bases? What you are demanding from your fellow hobbyists is potentially hundreds of $/€/£ worth of investment on something that they've already completed.

 

As to your comments about gaining an actual rules benefit from it (or "cheating" as you so kindly put it), bear in mind that it works both ways, and 25mm means models closer together and therefore more susceptible to blasts and flamers, less ground covered etc. Now, if you see people fielding plastic Terminators on 25mm bases, or Grav-Cannon Devastators on 25mms then you have a point that those are being built contrary to the rules (i.e., not built on the base size they were supplied with), but you have to be prepared to accept that the overwhelming majority of Space Marine models out there in the world were supplied with 25mm bases and as such, will be mounted on them. You have to be prepared to accept that there are people with their old 2nd edition metal Terminators on 25mms, and their bike squads on rectangular Fantasy cavalry bases, because that's just how it used to be. If you want to refuse to play people on that basis then of course, that's your prerogative, but there is nothing in the rules (which you "hold...above all else") which supports that course of action which frankly, makes you look a bit of a snob.

 

For what it's worth, I have built all my new Power Armour models on 32mms since they were introduced with Deathstorm, including models which still come with 25mms as standard. I have not re-based any of the models I had built prior to that, but will do eventually; I think they look better and I personally would like to have visual consistency across my army. My bases are not overly involved or impressive and I don't mind re-doing them when other projects are out of the way. But that doesn't mean I expect other people to do the same.

[Canadian_F_H]

Mentioning death storm specifically, when I first opened the box I initially thought the 32s were for the genestealer models since they always spilled over their 25mm base to the point of not being able to make base to base contact. ..

 

As for re-base-ing I have so many Marines on 25mm. Well over 100, and only the 5 death company from death storm on 32...

[Iduddy]

I personally just like the look and feel of the 32mm bases.  The Astartes do not feel cramped and do not have their feet hanging off the base.  Overall it gives the model more bulk and appear bigger without changing the scale of the model.

[Canadian_F_H]

Well, I'm glad I lost all my terrain over the years, because 32mm base would not have fit...

 

And I guess its good I hadn't stuck it out because I would have probably gone whole hog decorating over a hundred bases too. ..

 

Personally I think they messed up base sizing... should have put Maines on 30mm, terminators on 35mm and ig weapon teams on 40 maybe. Omg the current ig weapon team bases are huge...

[SW1]

I've actually spent a small fortune on sculpting my own bases and then casting up in resin. The only bonus to the current moving from 25mm to 32mm is I now have enough bases to base my IG up on resin 25mm bases. Currently waiting for my new moulds to cure and I'm going to use the next ETL to repaint my SW's and I'll rebase at the same time. Should have enough bases cast up between now and then. ;)

[Mard]

My army is completely made from RT era and selective 2nd era Marines. I've never had anyone complain about me using old models - they love the theme of the army and the fact I limit myself to only those two release cycles for my army.
There's no way in hell I'd ever re-base these guys....