Level with me, 30k army question.

[Trevak Dal]

If I'm not interested in running a primarch, or any of the heresy special characters...is it worth getting into?

 

 

You are stuck at having go run minimum 10 man squads (while some will declare that its fluffy, that's a marketing ploy like formations are in 40k) I've experimented with running big Csms squads with mixed results, but the general consensus was that they were whfb levels of unwieldy and I imagine it's not much different in 30k.

 

There is stuff I like a lot about it (and would love to port over to my Csms like praetor-lord, centurion-lieutennent all power armor units being troops, different rites of war unlocking various special rules etc)

 

I'm most interested in alpha Legion...because I can Jack any good unit from any other Legion.

[Xwingt65]

If I'm not interested in running a primarch, or any of the heresy special characters...is it worth getting into?

You are stuck at having go run minimum 10 man squads (while some will declare that its fluffy, that's a marketing ploy like formations are in 40k) I've experimented with running big Csms squads with mixed results, but the general consensus was that they were whfb levels of unwieldy and I imagine it's not much different in 30k.

There is stuff I like a lot about it (and would love to port over to my Csms like praetor-lord, centurion-lieutennent all power armor units being troops, different rites of war unlocking various special rules etc)

I'm most interested in alpha Legion...because I can Jack any good unit from any other Legion.

Run Pride of the Legion. Veteran squads are 5 man minimum.

 

And we can't really say if it is worth it for you, that is something you have to decide for yourself. But to be honest, from what your are writing, I would guess its a no.

 

If you want to play 30k in order to powergame primarily, then you are missing out on 80% of what it has to offer.

[Trevak Dal]

I don't want to power game I just think it would be fun to add units from enemy lists. And the 20th is my favorite Legion.

[Slips]

The Main thing is 30k is "Go big or go home".

 

The System Encourages, for the most part, the use of Maximum-Sized Squads. Very rarely will you see MSU; mainly because its inefficient for the most part.

 

If you want to play 30k, you need to love the setting or you'll just be grinding your teeth.

 

Take a look around the Tactica and Army List sections to get a hang of how things differ to the norm you're used to; hell, use Milicants Battlescribe Catalog For 30k and test out list ideas.

 

1D4Chan also has a pretty good summary / page on what you can expect from 30k with some pretty good insight into the differences between the systems.

 

Theres no point getting into 30k Half-Heartedly because of the investment required to get a functioning army is, in some respects, higher/larger than standard 40k unless you play specific game modes like Zone Mortalis or Strategic Raid which is made for Smaller-Sized Games.

 

Consider that the Recommended minimum for 30k Lists is 1750 with the "Comfortable" Minimum being 2k and 2.5k Being the "Average" with list ranging from 3k - 5k being commonplace.

[Xwingt65]

I don't want to power game I just think it would be fun to add units from enemy lists. And the 20th is my favorite Legion.

Ok.

 

I still have my doubts if 30K is for you to be honest.

[Olis]

Trevak, brother, may I interest you in some Death Rays? :D

[Scribe]

You don't have to run Max size or SCs or Primarchs.

 

My group has a DA player who runs plasma spam units, bikers, and big units.

 

Another runs Sons of Horus very MSU, but hard hitting.

 

Another, Drop Pod World Eaters.

 

Myself, WBs with Daemons, but I'll be able to do Questoris with Admech soon.

 

Then we have the Salamander with Termi spam, or the ultra with tons of dudes.

 

You can really do whatever and because of the detachment rules (think 5th but allies no multiple detachment) and the fact it's a shared list there is a least the pretense of balance.

[Brofist]

You should watch some games or proxy a few of your own. At one time, 40k and 30k where a lot alike. Today they are meaningfully different.

 

It's easy to go into the heresy thinking many of the things that hold true in 40k will. A few do, but many don't. Many of my preconceptions changed as I played the game and realized how different it was. I encourage you to play some games to get a feel for how different it is for yourself because nothing we write here will make it click better than feeling it yourself :)

[Slips]

Coincidentally, we have this topic: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/318291-miniwargaming-heresy-batreps-up/ Which links you to the (free) 30k Batreps that Miniwargaming do.

[Hesh Kadesh]

When you say 'no special characters' do you mean special characters in general, or just those with an existing connection with the 30k Novels? If the former, a design quirk of the game has these special characters providing special rules that buff the army well. If the latter, it's no problem; you have Sevatar, Eidolon, Abaddon (ish), Khârn and Sigismund so far who are the good existing characters, and they are all beatsticks. None of them offer anything really about making lists or any real synergy or list variancy, outside of kit a CC squad and throw it into an assault turn 2.

 

Sevatar is the cheapest, but lacks AP2; instead he has a reroll to wound and rending, but has instant death in challenges, which is what makes him so effective.

 

Outside of that limitation on the novel characters, Autek Mor gives you two Preferred Enemy units, Autilon Skorr gives you a choice of special rules to include on top of your legions choice of special rules on top of veterans choice of special rules. Yes, you can have infiltrating scouting tank hunting flakk missile launchers with interceptor (18") if you wish, a World Eater Apothecary who is essentially autoinclude if you are running lots of marines running at things amd hitting them with an axe (you are, you're world eaters), or another AL character giving your guys +1 to damage rolls on your dudes and dreadnoughts while in enemy territory, for +3 damage Meltaguns and Deep Striking infantry units (hi, meltaguns?)

 

As others have said, if you don't want to run big 20 man blocks of infantry, congratulations, you are on the road to winning 30k. Joking aside, popping 200pts into bolter armed models (WE are exception as they have 4 AP4 attacks on the charge) is generally considered a waste. Veterans are different as they can pick up a pair of special/heavy weapons (possibly Tank Hunter), and/or the sniper special rule and/or Power Weapons (may swap Sniper for Tank Hunter/Furious Charge)

 

The game at the moment works well as an Alpha Strike, or if you're feeling fancy and super risky, the Beta Strike. Alpha Legion are the best at Beta Strike IMHO because they can force a stack of negatives on enemy Reserve rolls, meaning only those units which drop pod in first turn are available with any accuracy. Being able to take any unit is incredible;

 

If you fancy any help in the making of a list, you can either pop one in the lists threads, where people can offer some more list appropriate ideas, or head along to the tactica thread where we usually end up spitballing ideas for how to use units.

 

In the end, it is quite a good thing that we can take other legion uniques, as ours are comparatively garbage. Lernaeans are unfocused, and overcosted, fairly outclassed by other legion uniques, while Nornal terminators provide much of the kill that you'd otherwise require.

 

I don't think i've ever played a full 20Man Tactical Squad. Breacher Squads i have done, but that is more to Scout in Graviton Guns rather than relying on a Half dozen Rapiers.

[Trevak Dal]

How exactly does the sniper thing work, in batreps I've watched people treat it as if the squad wounds on 4s and has ap2 precision shots on 6s, but they aren't counted as having sniper rounds (like raptor chapter tactics, or Kroot sniper rounds) which is kind of weird to me.

 

When I say special characters I mean named guys, I have managed to get away from that with my chaos (finally) and I really want to do any and all armies I make that way going forward.

 

I got 1 b@c kit, still on sprues, and I love the miniwargaming guys armies, especially Quirks Alpha Legion and Steve's Iron Warriors

[Hesh Kadesh]

Sniper is a universal special rule which lets a unit trigger Precision Shots on a 6 to hit (allocate any wound it causes, rather than your opponent), always wound on a 4+, and if you roll a 6 to wound, resolve the hit at AP2.

 

As it is a Bolter, it is otherwise the same weapon, so Rapid Fire, AP5, 24" range etc. It is worthwhile to point out that as a Bolter, it is also Strength 4, and as such uses that value to wound from if it is lower (say T3 Auxilia), you use the better score. Also, that Imperial Fists benefit from theirnimproved ballistic skill.

 

They aren't outright equipped with Sniper Rifles; they are options for Recon Squads, which get the actual Sniper Rifle; a Heavy 1 36" weapon.

 

It is a shame you don't want to use named characters although entirely understandable. In our next campaign starting at the end of the month, we have banned all Named Characters to forge our own narrative. It is still an annoyance that you lose some of the nice little options they bring; some unfairly call it a crutch, but I disagree.

[Guiltysparc]

If you are on the fence then i would advise spending some time reading fluff.  The first three HH novels and Legion (since you said you like alpha legion).  Your enjoyment and appreciation of 30k will be increase 8 fold if you are familiar and enjoy the setting/fluff.  I think this is the biggest difference between 30k and 40k.

[God-Potato of Mankind]

Named characters aren't inherently better than non-named on a whole army basis.

 

It's likely that if you kitted out a Praetor (Chapter Master of 30k) for CC, named characters like Khârn or Sevatar would demolish them without much fuss.

 

Yet not having an HQ designed to challenge doesn't mean you can't build viable lists. Massed fire or a deluge of melee attacks can down them. Massed firepower can down many of the Primarchs (some being more resilient than others like Vulkan and Mortarion)

 

I'd strongly consider bringing some form of 'big guy' once you ascend over 2k though. You will face named characters and Primarchs and not having your own super heavy can be detrimental, or build a unit that's role is to blap a big scary thing from existence. There are lots of potent alpha strikes to be had in many Legions, or straight up drown the enemy in AV firepower (Vindilas/Grav Rapiers/Falchion/Lascannon support squads 5+ LCs!)

[noigrim]

Typhons and fellblades son

[MakoBoy88]

As is the same in 40k or Fantasy, an unnamed character or hero often forges his or her own 'lore' and personality from

Deeds in game.

 

I had a Dwarf Thane who made all 6's Parry saves several times in one campaign, which saved his life every time and earned him his own place in my mind.

 

The same equates in 30k. And in fact in a setting where there were so many heroes and legends it's easy to create your own individuality to your characters. Which is totally how you should play.

 

Just as a side note bare in mind a lot of people do run special characters and as such their buffs are often force multiplying surprises.

[Trevak Dal]

Exactly MakoBoy, I have a aspiring champion who has survived Kharns administrations several times (when Khârn would roll a 1 and gets randomly allocated to the champ who then somehow doesn't get wounded. And with his hands up in the air he's all testifying the blood gawds glory. I also have two autocannons havocs that killed themselves with a frag grenades, they got disassembled and rechristened inside helbrutes and always run together)

[Slips]

Well, you can totally customize your own unique characters. Between the Praetor, Consul, Knight Errant and Black Shields Options as well as accounting for Legions, you have a lot of flexibility at your disposal for making your own dude(s) who have a strong likely hood of doing the job you want them to.

 

They wont have the unique buffs of the Named Characters but its not like your in an insta-lose situation if you dont take them.

[Hesh Kadesh]

This, absolutely. A dude with a Pfist is still smashing home 6-7 WS6 S8 AP2 attacks on the charge for little more than 150pts. Give him an Invulnerable Save and you're golden.

[Ironwithout]

On that train you can make some decent characters with the rules assuming you are willing to invest the points. For example I always run a Praetor on a Scimiter Jetbike with Iron Halo, Digital Lasers, paragon Blade, Power Fist. 7 attacks on the charge striking at initiative S5 ap2. T5 2+4++ with a 3+ jink. Honestly its too expensive but I love it none the less.

 

Also with the new list of RoW's coming to be fair you dont even need to run tactical marines if you want to do something different. 30k has huge possibilities in list building. Nearly anything is possible and very few things are actually crap.

 

Good luck

[Lord Blackwood]

Godfrey  Forgelord and Master of the VII Legion Imperial Fists 775th Armored Company says hello

O u O  making your own characters and heroes is extra fun with the consul  system ! 

[marvmoogy]

My foray into 30k started with BaC (I'm guessing like a lot of others). To start, I'm building a hybrid 30k/40k force.

 

I'm taking a Praetor with pride of the legion which makes my Veteran tactical squads troops choices. Handy, as the vet tactical squad is a similar load out to a standard 40k tactical squad.

 

My 10 man heavy support squad can be split into 2 5-man Dev squads.

 

It's allOwing me to dip my toes into the 30k pond whilst still learning the units etc but also allows me to play a MkIV 40k force.

[Trevak Dal]

That's sort of what I want to do marvmoogy. I'm building a Grey Knight army that is naturally termy heavy, and I wanted a power armor army to back it up, to play around with drop pods and combat squads.

 

I've read many of the Horus Heresy books, my favorites being Legion, Betrayer (totally hated Loregar until this book), Deliverance Lost, Know No Fear and Fear to Tread.

 

Also loved the story about the Loyalist Iron Warrior Warsmith who held up traitor army on Lesser Damentine, and any that sheds light on Terra before the rise of the Emperor.

 

I don't like the Blood Angels, because vampires just weird me out, but Sanguiness is my favorite primarch. "Only Angels deserve to fly,"

 

I generally dislike the primarchs. The legions were fine without them, but I see the appeal of wanting to field them.

 

I'm against bikes in general for space marines. Its just...a little hard for me to picture them being able to fight on them.

[Brofist]

I'm with you. I'm not really into super hero fiction so the primarchs are pretty uninteresting to me, personally speaking. Same with named characters. That said, I run named characters and just pretend they're unique individuals from my detachment. That's not Orth in my tank, that's just an experienced tank commander for my particular battalion. Don't be a slave to the fluff. It's just a game after all.

[ElectricPaladin]

I would recommend getting into Horus Heresy if the idea of big crazy explody games in the conflict that still defines the world of Warhammer 40k ten thousand years later. I would also recommend getting into it with an open mind. Why say "I know I don't want to run a primarch or big squads" when you can say "this game looks awesome for a variety of reasons, so I'm going to give it a shot"? And then you can field big squads or a primarch if you are eventually moved to do so... or, if that continues to not appeal, you can not.

 

You've already said that you don't want to power game, so what do you care if you're playing the "best" way. You'll play the way you like, and if you play with like-minded folks, you'll win some and you'll lose some - no big deal.

 

Though, honestly, I kind of think you're putting out a level of negativity that means that maybe the required degree of open-mindedness isn't going to come naturally to you. Stuff like "big squads are a marketing ploy." Who knows? Who cares? It's the way they wrote the game - do you want to play the game they wrote or not? It's no skin off my - or anyone else's - nose if you don't.

 

Play the game because you think it's fun - or don't play it because you think it won't be. Don't come up with made-up arguments about GW's motivations. You don't need that in your life. You need to do what you think will make you happy and not do what you think won't. That's all.