Balancing codexes - Helsinki Grand Tournament version

[Ceril]

Hello,

Just came across this today, thought I might share. As there's often discussion and takes on how to balance the game and give codexes the same winning chances when pitted against each other. In a time when GW doesn't have the time, or maybe just don't care, to FAQ and balance properly Helsinki (Finland) GT has the following solution:

European Team Championship rules:

Most things goes. No escalation, no flying aces. No void shield. Rerollable 2+ are only successful on 4+. And the usual stuff and minor tweaks. What was interesting is the following, your amry max points is determined by your faction according to:

 

1500
Codex: Eldar Craftworlds

1650
Adeptus Mechanicus War Convocation
Codex: Necrons
Codex: Space Marines
Codex: Tau Empire
Codex: Space Wolves

1750
Codex: Chaos Daemons
Codex: Dark Angels
Codex: Imperial Knights
Codex: Tyranids

1850
Codex: Adepta Sororitas
Codex: Astra Militarum
Codex: Cult Mechanicus
Codex: Dark Eldar
Codex: Grey Knights
Codex: Harlequins
Codex: Inquisition
Codex: Khorne Daemonkin
Codex: Legion of the Damned
Codex: Militarum Tempestus
Codex: Orks
Codex: Skitarii

1950
Codex: Chaos Space Marines
Codex: Blood Angels

 

1500
Codex: Eldar Craftworlds

1650
Codex: Space Marines

1750
Codex: Tau Empire
Codex: Chaos Daemons
Codex: Dark Angels
Codex: Necrons
Codex: Imperial Knights
Codex: Tyranids
Codex: Space Wolves

1850
Codex: Astra Militarum
Codex: Cult Mechanicus
Codex: Dark Eldar
Codex: Grey Knights
Codex: Inquisition
Codex: Khorne Daemonkin
Codex: Orks
Codex: Skitarii

1950
Codex: Adepta Sororitas
Codex: Harlequins
Codex: Chaos Space Marines
Codex: Blood Angels
Codex: Legion of the Damned
Codex: Militarum Tempestus

 

 

 

Your max points allowed are determined by the "best" faction you take. So for example if we want to keep it as blood angels, allying becomes expensive. I've had great success personally with the Xenos inquisitor and Servo Skulls. Tried some skyhammer too to complement BA alpha strike.

Mission rules are what seems to be standard European: Eternal war, kill poins and maelstorm in all. You receive battle points according to the point difference in each category. Maximum would be 20-0 if you table your opponent. 6pts eternal war max, 6poitns kill points, 6 points maelstrom 2 points secondaries.

Maximum of 3 detachments, any decurion style counts as 2.

 

What are peoples take on this? Given a 450 point handicap over the best codex, can we fight on equal ground? What kind of strong lists do we have access to if we want to stay pure Blood Angels? Are inquisition for example worth it? I find it a very interesting take on the rules and I am looking forward to at least theroycraft a bunch of lists.

 

Quickly counting Gladius with free transport still saves more points than the difference, but they will be bleeding kill points and since it's equal to eternal war and maelstrom, it will be (more) difficult.

 

For the full read, sadly in Finnish only: http://www.gowarhead.com/2016/02/war-head-40k-helsinki-grand-tournament.html

[Brother apocalyptic]

Angels fury spearhead formation:

 

3 x 10 tactical marines

2 x stormraven with MM & Lascannon

1 x stormraven with HB & Ass cannon

 

Archangels

 

Librarian with termie armor, stormshield

6 sternguards with 3 combimeltas

3 x 5 ass terminators with 2 x TH & SH, 3 x LC

 

Everything starts in reserve but enters on turn 1, doesnt scatter on deepstrike, and can charge turn 1... :)

[Charlo]

I mean, and extra 450 points is awesome haha, although seems heavy handed. No reason we can't smash the Eldar with the same points as them ;)

[Ceril]

nvm this one

[Ceril]

Angels fury spearhead formation:

3 x 10 tactical marines

2 x stormraven with MM & Lascannon

1 x stormraven with HB & Ass cannon

Archangels

Librarian with termie armor, stormshield

6 sternguards with 3 combimeltas

3 x 5 ass terminators with 2 x TH & SH, 3 x LC

Everything starts in reserve but enters on turn 1, doesnt scatter on deepstrike, and can charge turn 1...

Sadly you'd scatter and can't cahrge on turn one:

from the FAQ:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0Bzus0DMobfGYMUliZmFucUFjSHc/view

ANGEL’S FURY SPEARHEAD FORCE FORMATION

1. A Teleport Homer must start the turn on the table in order to utilize the Augur Triangulation special rule.

2. Augur Triangulation can still be used by a model with a Teleport Homer that is aboard a Transport

(measure range from the hull of the Transport in this case).

3. A unit arriving embarked upon a Transport that has the Assault Vehicle special rule also benefits from the

ability to charge that turn.

[Silverson]

are you playing in the tournament? id be very interested in know how the sons of baal do.

[Ceril]

are you playing in the tournament? id be very interested in know how the sons of baal do.

Maybe. I don't have enough painted. Was going to another tournament in April originally, but the Helsinki one is more practical and fits my schedule better. I'd have to nail down a list too. Lately I've been playing white scars to get a feel for how they work since they're so popular. My BA is lacking ravens, I've played BA/marines together with the Skyhammer. Allying anything would give up the points edge though. Shooting armies are so strong atm, my BA is more iconic and fun. DC, sanguinary guard. I do have plenty of marines and bikes. And jumpers and melta units and... and...

 

I'll definitely let you all know how it goes if I can make it there.

 

 

P.s. if you gave suggestions and ideaa I'm all ears.

[Sviox]

Interesting. I live in Helsinki but haven't really participated in any tournaments (more of a play-with-friends type), but this one has quite interesting rules.

[Brother Raul]

I really, really like handicapped tournaments. They are a great idea but hard to scale right. The mission type format is great too.

 

Is 450 pts enough? Hell yeah. No matter which way you slice it, that's a stormraven and a sanguinary guard squad.

 

Other than our handicap being too high I actually really agree with the others. I'd just swap us and C:DE. They suck, I've tried playing them. Its not hard as in fun hard, its hard as in brickwall that your banging your head up against kind of hard.

[Ushtarador]

That's.... a lot of extra points! I'd wager this definitely gives you a good fighting chance against everyone :)

[SM1981]

It's interesting to see that we are basically ranked as one of the two weakest codex in the game. I know some other factions seem over powered, but I never saw us as being completely boned. Can't wait to hear Frater Antodeniel's take on this.

[Spagunk]

I think the "weakest" moniker is mostly because of our low number of super-star units. We don't have access to many of the deathstar type of setups that a lot of armies have.

 

However I think what people don't understand is that Blood Angels, at this time, are designed to accomplish objectives. We are fast enough to take and hold objectives, we can potentially clear other objectives and our tactical cards are set up to do just that. We don't have an Iron Fist 3++ biker squad of doom, we don't have Thunderwolf calvary, we don't have mass gravitons but we have the most units that are fast and we have our marine stat-line to work with.

 

Most of the time I eek out my wins through objective taking. The times that I do poorly is when I have to fight above my weight. However usually those types of battles end up being an epic multi-round close combat bonanza. However I will specifically point out how difficult it is to take down a knight titan without one of my own: those guys are the worst!

[Bartali]

Edit - Ignore, I'm talking rubbish

[Ceril]

I think the "weakest" moniker is mostly because of our low number of super-star units. We don't have access to many of the deathstar type of setups that a lot of armies have.

 

However I think what people don't understand is that Blood Angels, at this time, are designed to accomplish objectives. We are fast enough to take and hold objectives, we can potentially clear other objectives and our tactical cards are set up to do just that. We don't have an Iron Fist 3++ biker squad of doom, we don't have Thunderwolf calvary, we don't have mass gravitons but we have the most units that are fast and we have our marine stat-line to work with.

 

Most of the time I eek out my wins through objective taking. The times that I do poorly is when I have to fight above my weight. However usually those types of battles end up being an epic multi-round close combat bonanza. However I will specifically point out how difficult it is to take down a knight titan without one of my own: those guys are the worst!

Surely White Scars would be better? In a pure codex vs codex, they have fast bikers with a better jink. They have everything we have access to, and some more.

 

When it comes to the tournament, I'm doubtfull if the points will be enough. A Gladius Strike Force usually takes 2-4 Rhinos 1-2 Drop pods and rest as Razorbacks. For a total of at least 8 transport. That's a lot of points in their command benefit. We don't really have anything to challene that kind of lead with. They also have Objective Secured on everything within the gladius. The only comfort is that kill points is 6 out of 20 points in every mission. If the Gladius does its gladius thing, they will bleed points. With roughly 27 units they will be able to cover most Maelstrom with multiple ObSec units that are hard to get rid of.

[MadMek83]

We are ranked lower than Sororitas... Ouch... 

[Ceril]

We are ranked lower than Sororitas... Ouch... 

If the LVO is anything to go by, we was the worst IIRC.

 

Some statistics I found:

http://ftgtgaming.blogspot.fi/2016/02/lvo-by-numbers.html

 

There is one thing to keep in mind: any great player, that aimed for good positions would be pick a strong codex. Like Eldar, Necrons, Space Marines. So in that sense, maybe in the hands of a top8 Blood Angels could've done better. This is true for all codexes (codices?) though. Looking at the data we're last on avg points per game. We didn't make it into top 50, barely top 100 with a guy on 93rd place I think. Sisters of Battle placed in top 50. Orks placed 53rd.

Not that your army codex is decided by were you place your warlord.

 

[MadMek83]

 

We are ranked lower than Sororitas... Ouch... 

If the LVO is anything to go by, we was the worst IIRC.

 

Some statistics I found:

http://ftgtgaming.blogspot.fi/2016/02/lvo-by-numbers.html

 

There is one thing to keep in mind: any great player, that aimed for good positions would be pick a strong codex. Like Eldar, Necrons, Space Marines. So in that sense, maybe in the hands of a top8 Blood Angels could've done better. This is true for all codexes (codices?) though. Looking at the data we're last on avg points per game. We didn't make it into top 50, barely top 100 with a guy on 93rd place I think. Sisters of Battle placed in top 50. Orks placed 53rd.

Not that your army codex is decided by were you place your warlord.

 

 

True and Sisters do get cheap rending heavy bolters and other neat tricks...

[Spagunk]

Surely White Scars would be better? In a pure codex vs codex, they have fast bikers with a better jink. They have everything we have access to, and some more.

Two words: Fast. Rhinos

Okay, maybe more that then. All heavy vehicles except for Land Raiders are fast for us. Which means we have the armor to break through lines or quickly cover ground to support our assault units. White scars have a lot of fast and agile vehicles, they don't require heavy fire to kill tbh. AV 13 fast predators/vindicators are pretty nifty and you can't kill av 11 with bolters (vs AV 10 for speeders). The jink save plus toughness 5 is really nice and adds a lot of durability but jink curtails your ability to shoot for a turn which may not work well if you intend to take someone off of an objective. So I wouldn't discount our ability to move and take things.

Certainly, White scars have some toys that are different than ours and may be better at certain things, but I just think we are best suited to objective based games.

[The Unseen]

What does fast actually give you though? For rhinos, its extra flat out speed, 18" to 24". Predators of any variety are fairly terrible for their price, a heavy support slot by themselves since no squadrons, whirlwinds don't need to move. Vindicators and lasplas razors are about the only thing that really benefit from fast to any great degree, and it isn't turning them into super units. I would almost agree with you if Baal preds were still fast attack and we could run an effective av13 wall, but not since they got moved into heavy, and lost scout. When SISTERS OF BATTLE, the red-headed stepchild of red-headed stepchild of GW places better than you, you know they screwed up your book. These results just show what a lot of us have been feeling, that our codex wasn't treated very well, and more broadly, the game balance is messed up.

[Spagunk]

I will disagree with your assessment on the utility of predators. Having a fast predator/rhinos could make the difference between getting that objective or being able to kill what is left on it. Also, having an extra 6 inches means you increase your threat range with heavier weapons. Dropping pie plates becomes scarier and can definitely help mow the objectives for your assault units.

 

Regarding the WhirlWind, I don't see how that one is relevant. Normal tournament armies for other armies don't even field it so the WW remains a lackluster choice regardless of being fast or not.

 

BA's are hindered by the lack of squadrons but it isn't as much of a problem what with the large number of different formations that includes a storm raven by default. Missing the squadrons does hurt but I think you are still going to be hindered by points rather than the ability to field more predators. Heck, my standard force includes both a CAD and BSF which gives me 6 slots for vehicles if I need. I mean yeah, having to have a troop tax in there really sucks but think about how many more HQ's and Elites you can now add!

 

But i digress as I am not a tournament player. As alway YMMV and everyone has different local metas they have to work with or against.

[The Unseen]

If I could take a squadron of whirlwinds, with 3 out of sight, getting what is it, twin-linked and shred? That's an amazing unit for under 225 pts. Almost makes up for not having thunderfire cannons. And I mentioned vindicators are better with fast, but their still fundamentally the same unit, same with lasplas razors, they get better. That doesn't necessarily make them GOOD. Occasionally having that extra bit of movement can let you do things you normally couldn't, but it is very much an occasional thing.

 

Also, I don't trust vindicators much. Not after that boxcar scatter directly on to my own unit about to make a critical charge for the centerfield. That gunner was assuredly lobotomized and turned into a techmarines servitor.

 

BA are almost fine in a non-competetive setting, their still a lot better off than our chaos-corrupted brethren, and if I come across as overly pessimistic I apologize, I end up discussing the bad a lot more than the good, of which there is still quite a bit. Against all but 3-4 of the codexes out their in a casual setting, BA can hold their own just fine, but against the upper-mid tier of stuff they really struggle, and against stuff like optimized eldar or tau they don't have a chance, because essentially they lack the "toys" that put other codexes over the top.

[Remtek]

Quad Mortars from forgeworld can taken by BA and their better overall compared to TFC's. It's experimental rules, but most tournaments are allowing them now. 

 

https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/resources/fw_site/fw_pdfs/Horus_Heresy/RapierQuadMortar40k.pdf

[Bartali]

I'd contend that any blast/large blast weapon aren't very good for BA. As nicely demonstrated by The Unseen above.

 

Probably the best BA mech is the Flamestorm Baal. Run them along with Grav Bikers and DC.

[Remtek]

Scorpius and Mortars have been amazing in my testing, but the vindicators has always been a turd. It gives us a decent chanse at beating the top tier books. My meta might be different though, i guess everything is relative :)

[Xenith]

Seeing as this is roughly tournament centric, I posted this list in the "red tide" thread, about horde BA. We can pull some shenanigans at 1950pts

 

Using 3 Flesh Tearer Strike Force Detachments:

For 1875 pts you can get:

 

Detachment 1 665pts

Sanguinary Priest

5 Scouts

5x (5 assault marines, 2x melta, free rhino, extra storm bolter)

 

Detachment 2 565pts 

Sanguinary Priest

5 Scouts

5x (5 assault marines,, free rhino, extra storm bolter)

 

Detachment 3 715pts

Sanguinary Priest

5 Scouts

5x (5 assault marines 2x plasma, free rhino, extra storm bolter)

 

This is 1945pts, including 93 bodies and 15 free Rhinos. This leaves 50 for whatever wargear you want. 16 plasma shots/turn at 30", 32 shots at 18", along with 60 bolt shots from the rhinos.