Black Hawks - Reasonable/Kill team chapter

[Olis]

Pre-Vandire?

Although I often tell people not to trust Wikis - here's a link to Vandire on Lexicanum.

Okay but what does he have to do with

Erasus, on 23 Feb 2016 - 8:14 PM, said:

It's suggested the raptors have successors pre-Vandire, that's your connection sorted

I'm just providing information. I had assumed you were unfamiliar with Goge Vandire given your response prior to my post.

[Minigiant]

I am going to give up and just make them Raptors in Tundra camo. That is canon and fits because my written campaign story from the Tau side is all Canon too

 

I am getting frustrated that I cannot get a single idea that gains traction, because while you shoot down all my ideas so far with totally viable reasons, I shoot down 5 more by myself

 

People may not like reasonable marines but Raptors make them a thing

 

 

I'm just providing information. I had assumed you were unfamiliar with Goge Vandire given your response prior to my post.

 

 

No I had no idea but I dont understand why having successors before him is a connection. Why cant successors post him be a connection?

[Erasus]

I'm just providing information. I had assumed you were unfamiliar with Goge Vandire given your response prior to my post.

No I had no idea but I dont understand why having successors before him is a connection. Why cant successors post him be a connection?

The Raptors got hit pretty hard in M34/35/36 (one of them), and were not considered full strength again until much later, they also limited communication with Terra making a new Successor impossible. If you wanted a Raptor Successor it would have to be before Abaddon blew up their first homeworld.

Ah it's a shame you've been driven to abandon this, I feel largely responsible

I think that the Raptors add to the difficulty in making Reasonable Marines more accepted, because it's tough to make them not be the Raptors when mot people use them as their cornerstone. ​

Best of luck in all your future endeavours! Never give up!

[Minigiant]

The Raptors got hit pretty hard in M34/35/36 (one of them), and were not considered full strength again until much later, they also limited communication with Terra making a new Successor impossible. If you wanted a Raptor Successor it would have to be before Abaddon blew up their first homeworld.

Ah now it makes sense

Ah it's a shame you've been driven to abandon this, I feel largely responsible

No I wanted my DIY chapter to fit the established fluff and you challenged my ideas in the most reasonable ways possible

You hit the nail on the head with one sentence of what I was after

they took the name White Spectres to represent the image of a spectral spirit of vengeance striking from the white winds of blizzards to slay the hated Eldar.

I just cannot think of any cool ways to make that work and fit established fluff. I have read so many other IA and seen some of the same ideas I had be torn apart

[Erasus]

How about forgetting the reasonable bit, they are hunters? I imagine the locals are reliant on hunting rather than farming, this cultutre could seep into the Chapter and soon the Spectres were hunting the xenos across their homeworld?

 

the local beasts are dangerous so there's an ethos 'to strike first is to strike last'

[Minigiant]

How about forgetting the reasonable bit, they are hunters? I imagine the locals are reliant on hunting rather than farming, this cultutre could seep into the Chapter and soon the Spectres were hunting the xenos across their homeworld?

 

the local beasts are dangerous so there's an ethos 'to strike first is to strike last'

Hmm I want to convert them up with bandoliers etc and in squads of 10 have lots of specialisations

 

Sergeant

2iC

Medic

Special Weapons

Heavy Weapon

Sniper

Spotter

Demo

3 regulars

 

That would only work with reasonable surely

 

Think power armour wearing stuff like this (not the camo, the pouches)

 

http://i1085.photobucket.com/albums/j429/Leon_Felipe/Rebuilt%20and%20share/Russian_soldier.jpg

http://i1085.photobucket.com/albums/j429/Leon_Felipe/Rebuilt%20and%20share/mailgooglecom.jpg

http://i1085.photobucket.com/albums/j429/Leon_Felipe/Rebuilt%20and%20share/mailgooglecom1.jpg

[Olis]

I just cannot think of any cool ways to make that work and fit established fluff. I have read so many other IA and seen some of the same ideas I had be torn apart

 

It's okay, brother. You'll get there eventually. Know that each time you have an idea that does not work don't despair seeing it as a failure, see it as a success for finding an avenue that does not work. It's a learning process. Even I, dare I say, a veteran of the Liber must go through the same processes as you are doing. Remember, the difference between a master and a student is that the master has failed more times than the student has even tried - that's a kung fu saying that I've co-opted - however, I'm in no way referring to myself as a 'master'. That would be ridiculously egotistical. Just know that success does not come easy, but when it does it'll be something to be proud of.

[Erasus]

The squad layout would work better with Imperial Guard platoons honestly. That's the problem with Reasonable Marines, people want them to be like the modern day militaries but that's what the Guard is for, the Space Marines are for ultimate heroes and warriors.

 

This squad layout wouldn't work on the table top, even with Red Scorpion Chapter tactics. I would stop and think if you really want a Space Marine Chapter based on an icy death world or a specialised Astra Militarum Regiment raised from an icy death world.

[Minigiant]

The squad layout would work better with Imperial Guard platoons honestly. That's the problem with Reasonable Marines, people want them to be like the modern day militaries but that's what the Guard is for, the Space Marines are for ultimate heroes and warriors.

 

This squad layout wouldn't work on the table top, even with Red Scorpion Chapter tactics. I would stop and think if you really want a Space Marine Chapter based on an icy death world or a specialised Astra Militarum Regiment raised from an icy death world.

 

I can make it work imo, sergeant, special and heavy weapons are all fine. 2ic can just be a regular brother. Medic is an apothecary, medics can carry weapons so treat as standard marine. Sniper, use a boltgun similar to Telion, a spotter is just a marine with binoculars

[Erasus]

Like I said before, this is starting to feel like a Regiment, the pouches only reinforce my opinion on that. The Marines are not the military, even the Raptors do not go that far. Why do you want a Chapter? Whats wrong with a Regiment?

[Minigiant]

Like I said before, this is starting to feel like a Regiment, the pouches only reinforce my opinion on that. The Marines are not the military, even the Raptors do not go that far. Why do you want a Chapter? Whats wrong with a Regiment?

Because I already have an imperial guard army

[Erasus]

Yeah the Valhallans, why not leave the specialisations to them as they are a winter Regiment?

The most recent elements you've mentioned seem very Guardsmany rather than reminescent of a Space Marine.

 

The Scouts tend to have a lot of pouches . . .

 

What are the key roles this Chapter undertake in this campaign?

Has the campaign story been wokred out yet or is it yet to be played?

[Minigiant]

Yeah the Valhallans, why not leave the specialisations to them as they are a winter Regiment?

The most recent elements you've mentioned seem very Guardsmany rather than reminescent of a Space Marine.

 

The Scouts tend to have a lot of pouches . . .

 

What are the key roles this Chapter undertake in this campaign?

Has the campaign story been worked out yet or is it yet to be played?

 

I do want scouts but I dont want to do a Scout company

 

The marines attempt a night time raid on an Earth caste facility to recover an ancient artifact the Tau are using to terraform the planet

Recon the remains of a crashed Tau battle cruiser

Ambush in the mountains

Sabotage airfield

Search and Destroy the Shas'O

Rearguard

[Erasus]

These actions sound like the possible work of the Raven Guard, (who are not reasonable marines). Would it be worth having a RG Successor based on an ice world?

You could sidestep all the difficulties that come with Reasonables, I would personally avoid all the pouches, specialists and Raptorness. Use the stealth of the Raven Guard and strike where the xenos is weakest. Strike from the blizzards and show the Ethereals to fear the White Spectres.

Just my opinion

[Minigiant]

What is actually wrong with marine squads having specialised roles within them?

 

A single well timed shot coming through the snow storm can also strike fear in the enemy

[Olis]

What is actually wrong with marine squads having specialised roles within them?

 

Because they don't need them. Marines, especially in the fluff from editions number five and onwards, are incredibly versatile once they make it to being a tactical marine. Need a sniper? Take your pick of any brother in the squad. Need a heavy weapons specialist? Take your pick. Et cetera, et cetera. 

[Minigiant]

 

What is actually wrong with marine squads having specialised roles within them?

 

Because they don't need them. Marines, especially in the fluff from editions number five and onwards, are incredibly versatile once they make it to being a tactical marine. Need a sniper? Take your pick of any brother in the squad. Need a heavy weapons specialist? Take your pick. Et cetera, et cetera. 

 

So would you say its more down to the flexibility in the squad than not needing these roles?

[Olis]

Tactical squads are, in theory, very flexible. They are usually only limited in what they can do by what gear they have with them. 

[Minigiant]

Tactical squads are, in theory, very flexible. They are usually only limited in what they can do by what gear they have with them. 

So my idea of representing more roles in a 10 man tactical squad than just sergeant, special and heavy weapon I need to justify increased amount of equipment available

[Erasus]

As Olis said you dont need these roles because every marine has been trained in them, snipers in the Scouts, heavies in the Devastator 9th, close combat in the Assault 8th and so on. That's why they are called Tactical, because of their tactical flexibility. They exemplify the Codex approach in their 'jack of all trades' abilities

 

WIth marines though, it's less a case of a shot in the dark and more of a angry squad to the enemy HQ kind of situation. They are built as strike forces, they are the bullet.

 

Let the Vahallans take sniper pot shots at what's left

[Minigiant]

But why does adding a sniper and an apothecary esq brother make them any less flexible?

[Erasus]

Ignoring the relative rarity of Apothecaries due to the super healing abilities of space marines, the sniper and medic roles would take away the flexibility by placing other equipment in their hands. The space marines are usually, as a rule, taking the fight to the enemy, even in defensive scenarios. Your sniper would be better off on his own, robbing the squad of the 10th man.

 

Essentially these roles do not add anything to the Chapter.

 

As I said before they are more reminiscent of Imperial Guard Platoons with Heavy Weapon Platoons and Sniper Platoons being added to the regular Infantry Platoons to give the overall Regiment some extra power. The Space Marines do not need extra power.

[Minigiant]

 the sniper and medic roles would take away the flexibility by placing other equipment in their hands.

 

But if they are these super humans then surely they are capable of carrying both

 

When I say sniper I refer to a boltgun similar to Telions, silenced and scoped

Red Scorpions can have apothecaries that are their sergeants, why cant that role be divided? Division of labour is more flexible

[Olis]

But why does adding a sniper and an apothecary esq brother make them any less flexible?

 

Well, imo, the point is not making them less flexible. They just simply don't need specialists such as snipers. It's a moot point. Apothecaries are specialists all of their own distinction, so that's a different subject - the Red Scorpions have the option replace their sergeants (or at least they used to) with apothecaries. But that was more down to their obsession about their own gene-seed than practicality. 

[Minigiant]

I guess I just dont get it, how increasing the capabilities of certain roles makes them less mariney