Black Hawks - Reasonable/Kill team chapter

[Erasus]

Because you're being Reasonable and marines aren't. Your suggested options would be great in a Tempestus Scion unit or Regiment but doesn't fit with Astartes because they are not like our military, they're something else.

 

It's one reason that Reasonables don't usually get very far on these kind of sites. That and they're not that interesting to read about.

 

Honestly I'd take a leaf out of the Raven Guard for this particular project

[Minigiant]

Honestly I'd take a leaf out of the Raven Guard for this particular project

 

Why? Raptors have the same geneseed

[Grey Hunter Ydalir]

 

Honestly I'd take a leaf out of the Raven Guard for this particular project

 

Why? Raptors have the same geneseed

 

 

It's not about the geneseed. It's not at all, it's more about the character of the chapter.

 

The Raven Guard are all about the war in the shadows and they make heavy use of Scouts, excessive amounts of intelligence gathering and not being around to get shot. But then they also strike hard and exceptionally fast, utilizing the strengths they inherently possess as Astartes. It doesn't matter what you do, a seven foot tall walking tank that has survived a life of constant warfare for the last century or more is not a reasonable proposition.

 

Their armour is proof against most firepower, physical, physiological and psychological superiority, training and experience in any situation far outstrips that of any possible peers they may have.

 

If you're spending most of your time sniping, you're wasting the inherent strengths of an Astartes. Leave it to a dedicated Scout sniper squad. Also take a look at a Sternguard Veteran squad. They fulfill multiple battlefield roles with just their bolters purely because of carrying multiple ammunition types that allow them to engage almost any foe in any situation. Why do they need different weapons if ammunition for their primary weapon (basically a 20mm rapid fire cannon) allows them to do just the same, with the only limiting factor being supply drops, rather than carrying extra ammunition for yet another weapon, which would essentially half the total ammunition load of the trooper if he's having to carry multiple types of munitions.

 

We don't have a modern day equivilant to the Bolter that is hand held and as easy to adapt to a situation as simply swapping magazines.

 

Use a force comprised primarily of Sternguard Veterans perhaps given their relative flexibility?

[Minigiant]

I think what I am going to do is make up a unit, show it off and then rule of cool will make it a lot easier for me to make them a chapter. My favourite space marine unit of all time had to be the old command squad, the one with apothecary, techmarine etc etc. What I am going to do is make a tactical squad that has lots of roles in it

[Minigiant]

So to not derail Kastor Kriegs thread I will bring back my thoughts here (even though I will continue and contribute to it as it goes because after all we are after one thing, reasonable marines. Just approaching things differently)

 

Quick note:

 

For your campaign Minigiant why not just use Tempestus Scions?

No I very much want marines

 

And echoing something Kastor Krieg said, this thread is no longer for saying Reasonable marines arent a thing, save it for another time another place. This thread is for helping create the 'special forces esq' chapter. People may find the idea dull but evidence suggests that there are people who want to try get a reasonable marines force into the IA

 

Now I guess the big question is should how they fight be a big thing or a collection of little things?

 

Now for me reasonable marines is very much (I use the following carefuly) a Tempestus Scion squad in power armour.

 

I plan to make a 10 man Tactical squad with

Sergeant

Medic (Lower ranked Apothecary?)

Special weapons

Heavy weapon

Sniper (Think HH Recon with Bolter similar to Telion)

Spotter (Maybe an actual scout? count as in game terms)

Pioneer (Marine with servo arm)

 

The main reason for this is that for me 40k is all about narrative and 'water cooler moments' and really want to add personality on an individual basis. You could say, I am trying to build a Kill team chapter IA

 

Now I thought/think I found something with the help of Oris

 

 

 

The Space Marines are NOT the Delta Force/SAS/Spetsnaz or any other special force we know, these units are akin to Tempestus Scions.

 
A radical idea and I am certain would be shot down immediately would be to recruit a chapter from the Tempestus Scions

 

 
Allegedly... the Ultramarines have recruited from a Tempestus Scion regiment before. Allegedly. Bearing in mind that the information, in-universe, is hear-say so the chances of it actually, genuinely being the case are not good. But if this was to be the case with your own Chapter, I suggest that the process be considered a one-off or incredibly rare and that they'd choose the youngest of the Scions (seeing as military age in Imperium is teenager-ish years vs Space marine recruitment being usually fourteen or under). 

 

Although there is precedent, it's incredibly tenuous. Treat the idea with great care and use such information sparingly. If you do not them using the idea would make your Chapter feel like a 'Special Snowflake'.

 

 

Now as they would never recruit an entire chapter from it, I am think somewhere between a handful and 10 for its founding. If this is the case it leads me to lots of small things rather than one giant fact as to why they are reasonable

 

Now a quick rundown in how my thought process is going at the moment

1. Captain from X compant of the Raven guard is the most reasonable as they come for a RG

2. X Company  fights alongside Tempestus Scion - Add importance in how it was won
3. Captain from X company becomes Chapter Master of Z Chapter
4. Requests and handful of recruits be selected from 2 following this "precedent"
5. Official sources lost during Age of Apostary
6. Rumours live on through Olis example:

 

Make it an isolated event that's not officially recognised. Perhaps have the nobles of world such-and-such boast that it was their Scions that were bestowed the honour and a distant family member (4th cousin's nephew on his wife's side, or some such) is now a space marine. It's basically hot air and boasting used to elevate their social status. Outside of that, nothing is confirmed, nor does the Chapter wish to comment on it.

 

Other possible contributing factors ideas list (please help add to it):

1. Incomplete CA (Not defining composition of tactical squads, complete scout roles, concentration of reasonable type tactics etc)

 

Potential chapter names

1. Black Hawks - (Not only does it imply modern military, it connects to the RG and can recruit from US first nation esq people)

 

Right there we have it so far

[Grey Hunter Ydalir]

The whole idea of a well developed chapter is that the themes you use for them aren't too on the nose.

 

Your desire to bring in 'reasonable marines' as a theme is fine, in concept. So long as you don't over use a theme to turn a chapter into a caricature of it's roots, it's good.

 

To be fair, I do understand that GW official chapters are quite literally the absolute worst at this. They are over-themed to the nines. However, they are really good examples of what not to do.

 

Character. You're essentially writing a character that is made up of a thousand superhuman warriors. If you break it down like that, it becomes easier to conceptualize overall.

 

Ok so to be a bit more constructive:

 

The main reason for this is that for me 40k is all about narrative and 'water cooler moments' and really want to add personality on an individual basis. You could say, I am trying to build a Kill team chapter IA

 

 

Ok Kill Team IA is fine, but I'd not tread on the Deathwatch's ground too much. The Deathwatch is limited in manpower, extremely so, even more so than a regular chapter naturally. Now, your guys are not so limited in manpower.

How about expanding it from single characters to small squads. Five man teams, drawn together for specific jobs that go into an unusually small deployment. Perhaps even split up Companies into different teams for individual deployments? You have a specific enemy or warzone to be dispatched to so from the men in the Company an operational commander chooses small teams for their specific abilities. Fighting Tau? Maybe bring two assault teams to tie up their firepower instead of one as standard for example.

 

You could even explain away more Apothecaries being thrown into all these smaller deployments as there being one true Apothecary per deployment, but all of his trainees, or apprentice Apothecaries. Perhaps each Apothecary has his cadre of medics, which replace him based on seniority when he is eventually killed. This is all due to the smaller and more dispersed operational deployments that the chapter and even the companies take by comparison to a regular Astartes deployment.

[Minigiant]

Thank you Grey Hunter Ydalir, that is very constructive.

 

Now I am thinking 21st founding

Decimated by X opponent

Left severely understrength

Now all they can do is supplement imperial forces with units, or is that how they get around their curse

 

Now I may start another thread and lock this one simply because this is now very different from the OP.

 

Has any Reasonable marines made it to a full IA? If so could anyone provide links

[Minigiant]

Okay so I am going to try approach this like one of my university essays. Sections, bullet point it out, expand

 

Origins of the Blackhawks

 

*will be in black

 

Context

 

In the forests of Panam Captain [iNSERT NAME] of the Raven Guards 3^nd company found himself more and more frequently conducting operations alongside the Militarum Tempestus regiment the 22^nd Selena Leviathans.

The 22^nd Selena Leviathans gained significant amounts of acknowledgement and respect having made planetfall and conducted successful operations alongside the 2^nd, 3^rd and 5^th Raven Guard companies.

Alongside the Raven Guard 2^nd Company in the forests of Panam, they were critical in successfully purging the region from Orks. The Leviathans regiment navigated themselves within close proximity of the last Ork stronghold, opening fire the Orks charged at them with all their might, the Leviathans nerve held, slowly withdrawing forces and luring the Orks from their high ground the Leviathans led the Orks right into the Adeptus Astartes, who had patiently waited for the opportune moment to strike. Captain [iNSERT NAME] observed that these humans fought with discipline, nobility and profound loyalty to the Raven Guard’s orders. It took little to convince his fellow Shadow Captains of the scions worth. As tribute to their sacrifice and actions, the 22^nd Selena Leviathans were granted additional training alongside the Raven Guards 10^th company.

 

Founding

 

Founded shortly before 991.M35 as part of the 21^st Founding, the second largest founding in history, to defend the [NAME] sector and the [FORGEWORLD]. Captain [iNSERT NAME] of the Raven Guard was to be honoured leading the training cadre and become their first Chapter Master. Upon his appointment rumour suggests that he requested a handful of the best 22^nd Selena Leviathans be incorporated into the recruitment. Now official records of this event occurring have unfortunately been lost or destroyed with many other important pieces of information during the Age of Apostasy. The Blackhawks have refrained from commenting on such matters however on Selena the nobles boast that it was their Scions that were bestowed the honour and a distant family member is now a space marine. Outside of those rumours, nothing is confirmed, and the Chapter does not look as if they will comment soon.

 

Homeworld

• Nearby to said Forgeworld
• Agri-world
• Planet name Kalagesi
• American first nation type people e.g Apache, Blackfeet, Cherokee etc
• Tribal

History

• Not long after founding left near decimated by an Alpha legion led attack on said forge world
• Part of the curse? or were they cursed for recruiting scions?
• Had to conduct guerrilla war esq conflict to clear forge world and reclaim it

 

Combat Doctrine

 

After the occupation of [FORGEWORLD] and the successful eradication of any taint of chaos the severely depleted Blackhawks had to significantly alter their modus operandi and reduce the amount of campaigns and war they are able to undertake. [CHAPTER MASTER] vowed to never allow such casualties to become his chapter again and to hunt down and destroy the traitorous Alpha legion leader [AL NAME] and now only in the direst of circumstances will they fight at full company strength. Instead they now conduct significant recon and intelligence gathering in pursuit of the defence of [sTAR SYSTEM] and when valuable intelligence come to light, they will send an elite kill team to accomplish their objectives. They will also send out squads to compliment other imperial forces, the Skitarii from [FORGEWORLD] are the most privy of forces, considering the amount of assistance and supplies they provide the chapter.

 

In battle the lessons and experience of the [FORGEWORLD] occupation has led them to diverge from the Codex Astartes, now extensive preparations are made before actually attacking a target, including using spies and corruption to weaken an enemy's resolve. Not only is an enemy attacked from every angle, but every attack is often coordinated to achieve the most destructive results. The Black hawks do not fight like any other Adeptus Astartes chapter, for their mere survival they have to avoid direct combat as much as possible, using subterfuge, infiltration, sabotage, brainwashing, and meticulous multi-year plans to destroy their enemies instead. Hit-and-run tactics seem to be preferred over close quarters fighting, the encouragement of independent thought within all levels of the Chapter means that it is not uncommon for combat methods to differ widely either when operating in isolation or in concert with each other. This independent spirit allows for the most appropriate application of resources and/or tactics for a given mission ranging from the use of warzone specific camouflage to ad hoc unit composition and even working with local forces to ensure success.

 

 

Organisation

• Due to lack of numbers, most commonly seen in supplementing other imperial forces
• notably skitarii
• Similar in sense to the Mentor legion?
• Relatively independent companies (tribal homeworld aspect)
• Scout squads are used, when a scout is near ready to be promoted to a full brother, will be assigned to his squad as sniper to provide overwatch. Only when he has observed his new squad from a distance and in safety will he be promoted to full brother

Geneseed

 

The degeneration of the Raven Guard gene-seed means several of the unique organs of the Space Marines no longer works properly or no longer grow. Like the Raven Guard the Black Hawks do not have the Mucranoid or Betcher's Gland. However, they do not appear to have the same mutated Melanchromic Organ, their skin does not grow paler and their eyes do not darken. Now whether they have a completely different organ to the standard geneseed or the alterations of the 21^st founding changed the mutation, is yet known.

 

Feel free to question those points, raise points of your own, but also if possible please suggest a solution

[Minigiant]

[Dizzyeye01]

Just a wee suggestion her, you don't need to always write out the whole chapter when you change something. You can always just include the new parts in new posts and update the OP with new content :)

[Ekim_Trub]

Your Chapter is very similar to my own DIY in some aspects, I look forward to seeing where you take them. 

I am not sure about removing the mutation of the Melanchromic Organ though, it is kind of the big thing regarding the RG geneseed (it makes for pale Marines).
I actually like the idea of having the Marines within a Tactical Squad carrying out further roles/specializations, and explored it for a while myself, however it just came across as an attempt to make them a bit Mary-Sue, so I would suggest maybe showing some restraint on the idea. Instead of everyone having an extra role, pick a specialization or two, and introduce that across their Squads? My Sable Hawks will have one or two Marines per Squad who (fluffwise) are designated marksmen, and will have received slightly more training in this aspect than the others, but the only difference visually will be slightly more ornate Boltguns.

[Minigiant]

I am not sure about removing the mutation of the Melanchromic Organ though, it is kind of the big thing regarding the RG geneseed (it makes for pale Marines).

 

Now I am glad you have questioned this, I thought long and hard about this. Now I dont know how to say this politically correctly but having a properly functioning Melanchromic organ maintains the 'redish' skin from the chapters homeworld. That was my thinking anyway

 

I actually like the idea of having the Marines within a Tactical Squad carrying out further roles/specializations, and explored it for a while myself, however it just came across as an attempt to make them a bit Mary-Sue, so I would suggest maybe showing some restraint on the idea. Instead of everyone having an extra role, pick a specialization or two, and introduce that across their Squads? My Sable Hawks will have one or two Marines per Squad who (fluffwise) are designated marksmen, and will have received slightly more training in this aspect than the others, but the only difference visually will be slightly more ornate Boltguns.

Entirely agree and actually think the decimation of the chapter can help me here. Not only will they need scout companies to eventually replace the lost companies but also scouts will need to replace fallen brothers in actual units. So I am only going to add a Mechanic and Medic (Apprentice Techmarine and Apothecary respectively) add that to the Sergeant, Special and heavy weapons that is 5 in a 10 man squad. Add 2 scouts, small sniper team and 3 regular marines

[Ekim_Trub]

A fully functioning Melanchromic Organ will require some explaining, as it is the key mutation of the RG geneseed, I wonder if there are any other ways to explain their skin tone?

 

[Minigiant]

A fully functioning Melanchromic Organ will require some explaining, as it is the key mutation of the RG geneseed, I wonder if there are any other ways to explain their skin tone?

 

 

Well at the moment, I have attempted to do it through the 21st founding, from my understanding during that founding they played around with the geneseeds

[Grey Hunter Ydalir]

I understand what you want to do with making the squad more flexible, but I still don't like it. I'll make one more pass on the subject then I'll leave you to it on this particular topic's regard.

 

Your increased flexibility in gear choices is fine, you choose the load-out you'll need for the environment and conditions you're in.

 

You wouldn't take a sniper rifle scout or initiate when you were doing subterranean tunnel clearing, would you? Shotguns and Bolters all the way. Fighting in the steppes of a world that resembles Afghanistan? Bolters and issuing longer range munitions is the key. Even then, these days you'll still see varying degrees of specialization. Marksman roles are inclusive, but a lot of the time their marksman designated weapons are older, heavier munition weapons (like the re-adoption of the M14 in Iraq, literally dusting off old stores of the weapons for the role), or with different configurations on older receivers, such as the HK416/7 variants.

 

Anyway I'm getting slightly off point.

 

I never saw you address the point of Bolters being situationally fluid weapon system just by virtue of it being capable of accepting a wide variety of different ammunition types to suit whatever situation the marine finds himself in, combined with the Power Amours own targeting systems and the marines own augmented abilities. You've essentially taken what is one of the Astartes most flexible positive points and turned it on it's head.

 

Don't get me wrong I'm not trying to tear you down, or give you grief, I'd just prefer to see an answer I'm satisfied with I suppose. If you're set beyond being set for this idea to go ahead, all good. I just like to see reasoning set out, rather than justification for the inclusion of something just because you like the idea of it is all.

 

 

Entirely agree and actually think the decimation of the chapter can help me here. Not only will they need scout companies to eventually replace the lost companies but also scouts will need to replace fallen brothers in actual units. So I am only going to add a Mechanic and Medic (Apprentice Techmarine and Apothecary respectively) add that to the Sergeant, Special and heavy weapons that is 5 in a 10 man squad. Add 2 scouts, small sniper team and 3 regular marines

 

 

 

I'd say this could be workable, except for the mechanic. Wouldn't you have all your apprentice Techmarines function as drivers and crew for the chapters vehicles? This keeps them in close proximity to the things they are supposed to be learning to take care of, and allows other less technologically able marines stick to the front lines rather than be stuck with duty with Armour.

 

This also keeps your more technologically savvy marines a little bit safer than just being shot on the front lines for no discernible benefit. Having say, a dedicated communications specialist or some other kind of situational specialist would be more acceptable in my mind.

 

 

 

Only other thing I'd mention is questioning the use of the Alpha Legion as your main foil here. Perhaps just create another warband for the task? It's just you're going up against the consummate masters of the shadow war here, with a rookie chapter and only learning through decimation. I don't think you'd out-insurgent the insurgency masters. The other thing is styles of warfare. While the Alpha Legion do fight as other Astartes during combat operations, their key is that they have plans within plans within plans and are always ten steps ahead, using human cultists and infiltrators to further their goals, enigmatic though those goals may be.

 

A guerrilla war is essentially a response to an overwhelming enemy force that cannot be fought conventionally. It's asymmetrical warfare. The Alpha Legion aren't really a great force of occupiers are they? I don't see it as being in their purview. They get what they came for and then they leave, sowing discord in their wake perhaps but not overwhelming numbers, especially if they're facing a full strength chapter to begin with.

 

Keep in mind that anti-insurgency ops are not the same as fighting fire with fire, aka starting your own guerrilla war.

 

 

I'm wondering whether you'd think to perhaps have most of the chapter fighting in engagements elsewhere when the Alpha Legion attack the forgeworld. When they leap to it's defense the chapters remaining company(ies) at home are wiped out.

When the survivors of the various other deployments return home, they find their fortress and nearby forgeworld in ruins. They piece things together through investigation as to how their brothers were taken apart as they were, and through that learn of the methods of the Alpha Legion. They then endeavor to master their way of war in order to best them and avenge their fallen brothers?

 

Just an idea, not sure if you'd be on board with it but I thought I'd throw it out there anyway.

[Olis]

 

A fully functioning Melanchromic Organ will require some explaining, as it is the key mutation of the RG geneseed, I wonder if there are any other ways to explain their skin tone?

 

Well at the moment, I have attempted to do it through the 21st founding, from my understanding during that founding they played around with the geneseeds

 

Without trying to throw yet another obstacle in your way, I advise that you think about this decision carefully. If you do make them a 21st Founding Chapter then you're going to have to put in extra work adding and explaining what's wrong with them (because the 21st Founding is known as the 'Cursed' Founding for a reason). 

 

Maybe they have bad luck, like the Lamenters. Maybe, like a sizable proportion of Cursed Founding Chapters, they have a mutation in the gene-seed (likely detrimental or something that would provoke a reaction from the =][=). Or maybe it's something else. I don't know.  

[Minigiant]

 

I understand what you want to do with making the squad more flexible, but I still don't like it. I'll make one more pass on the subject then I'll leave you to it on this particular topic's regard.

 

Your increased flexibility in gear choices is fine, you choose the load-out you'll need for the environment and conditions you're in.

 

You wouldn't take a sniper rifle scout or initiate when you were doing subterranean tunnel clearing, would you? Shotguns and Bolters all the way. Fighting in the steppes of a world that resembles Afghanistan? Bolters and issuing longer range munitions is the key. Even then, these days you'll still see varying degrees of specialization. Marksman roles are inclusive, but a lot of the time their marksman designated weapons are older, heavier munition weapons (like the re-adoption of the M14 in Iraq, literally dusting off old stores of the weapons for the role), or with different configurations on older receivers, such as the HK416/7 variants.

 

 

Now I can see something here, first I will say just because I am going to build my physical models in this way does not mean they fight identically to this in theory. Instead they are a representation of how a unit could be. Now about the sniper rifle, you are right it is stupid of me stating it. Instead I can keep the initiate provides overwatch. By this I means, the scouts inside the tactical squads (Just like BT) are responsible for the least important role regarding the safety of the entire squad, as well as the safest place they can be

 

 

I never saw you address the point of Bolters being situationally fluid weapon system just by virtue of it being capable of accepting a wide variety of different ammunition types to suit whatever situation the marine finds himself in, combined with the Power Amours own targeting systems and the marines own augmented abilities. You've essentially taken what is one of the Astartes most flexible positive points and turned it on it's head.

 

Don't get me wrong I'm not trying to tear you down, or give you grief, I'd just prefer to see an answer I'm satisfied with I suppose. If you're set beyond being set for this idea to go ahead, all good. I just like to see reasoning set out, rather than justification for the inclusion of something just because you like the idea of it is all.

 

Because I dont think I have too. Now taking into consideration I am not going to be saying a scout is always a sniper anymore. As I will be modelling one as a sniper lets take 10 man squad split. Assuming the sergeant is boltgun not bolt pistol + CCW. The squad is 8-2 boltguns to specialised weapons, what is one more? When Sergeants can take things like plasma pistols making it 7-3

 

Entirely agree and actually think the decimation of the chapter can help me here. Not only will they need scout companies to eventually replace the lost companies but also scouts will need to replace fallen brothers in actual units. So I am only going to add a Mechanic and Medic (Apprentice Techmarine and Apothecary respectively) add that to the Sergeant, Special and heavy weapons that is 5 in a 10 man squad. Add 2 scouts, small sniper team and 3 regular marines

 

 

 

I'd say this could be workable, except for the mechanic. Wouldn't you have all your apprentice Techmarines function as drivers and crew for the chapters vehicles? This keeps them in close proximity to the things they are supposed to be learning to take care of, and allows other less technologically able marines stick to the front lines rather than be stuck with duty with Armour.

 

This also keeps your more technologically savvy marines a little bit safer than just being shot on the front lines for no discernible benefit. Having say, a dedicated communications specialist or some other kind of situational specialist would be more acceptable in my mind.

 

I get this point, but a Techmarines job is not just vehicles. Also what if the unit has a transport?

 

Having say, a dedicated communications specialist or some other kind of situational specialist would be more acceptable in my mind.

 

Now I gave this some hard thought, why would they, what more can a comm specialist do that a helmet cannot

 

Only other thing I'd mention is questioning the use of the Alpha Legion as your main foil here. Perhaps just create another warband for the task? It's just you're going up against the consummate masters of the shadow war here, with a rookie chapter and only learning through decimation. I don't think you'd out-insurgent the insurgency masters. The other thing is styles of warfare. While the Alpha Legion do fight as other Astartes during combat operations, their key is that they have plans within plans within plans and are always ten steps ahead, using human cultists and infiltrators to further their goals, enigmatic though those goals may be.

 

A guerrilla war is essentially a response to an overwhelming enemy force that cannot be fought conventionally. It's asymmetrical warfare. The Alpha Legion aren't really a great force of occupiers are they? I don't see it as being in their purview. They get what they came for and then they leave, sowing discord in their wake perhaps but not overwhelming numbers, especially if they're facing a full strength chapter to begin with.

 

Keep in mind that anti-insurgency ops are not the same as fighting fire with fire, aka starting your own guerrilla war.

 

 

I'm wondering whether you'd think to perhaps have most of the chapter fighting in engagements elsewhere when the Alpha Legion attack the forgeworld. When they leap to it's defense the chapters remaining company(ies) at home are wiped out.

When the survivors of the various other deployments return home, they find their fortress and nearby forgeworld in ruins. They piece things together through investigation as to how their brothers were taken apart as they were, and through that learn of the methods of the Alpha Legion. They then endeavor to master their way of war in order to best them and avenge their fallen brothers?

 

Just an idea, not sure if you'd be on board with it but I thought I'd throw it out there anyway.

 

 

This is really helpful, a lot better than what I was having in mind. Even if I now need to go rewrite what I have written so far

 

 

 

A fully functioning Melanchromic Organ will require some explaining, as it is the key mutation of the RG geneseed, I wonder if there are any other ways to explain their skin tone?

 

Well at the moment, I have attempted to do it through the 21st founding, from my understanding during that founding they played around with the geneseeds

 

Without trying to throw yet another obstacle in your way, I advise that you think about this decision carefully. If you do make them a 21st Founding Chapter then you're going to have to put in extra work adding and explaining what's wrong with them (because the 21st Founding is known as the 'Cursed' Founding for a reason). 

 

Maybe they have bad luck, like the Lamenters. Maybe, like a sizable proportion of Cursed Founding Chapters, they have a mutation in the gene-seed (likely detrimental or something that would provoke a reaction from the =][=). Or maybe it's something else. I don't know.  

 

 

Can you think of any other way?

 

I was going to go down the way of the Lamenters with the terrible luck, roping in the near decimation of the chapter

[Olis]

Can you think of any other way?

 

Short of simply keeping it easy and make them paler than an English shut-in, it's going to be tough sell whatever you do. On the one hand, there's the Cursed Founding - a convenient answer to gene-seed manipulation - and there is baggage that comes with that. On the other, you could go the really long route and come up with a narrative where the Chapter solves the problem, with or without help, themselves. This particular option is less favourable seeing as it would rely on good writing and will to stay the course, whatever the critique may be. 

 

Maybe there is something I can offer in the way of ideas: Have you considered albinism as a side effect of the Cursed Founding? It's a mutation, a relatively benign one, that could help go some way to selling the idea that the Chapter gene-seed ain't as good as the parent stock. Maybe the brothers of the Chapter suffer from some form of anaemia, in conjunction with the albinism.  

 

I realise it's completely the opposite to your intended 'solution' to their melanchromatic issues but, hey, it an interesting turn of events I think. Rather than solving their problem, the Imperium exacerbated it instead. ;)

[Minigiant]

Can you think of any other way?

Short of simply keeping it easy and make them paler than an English shut-in, it's going to be tough sell whatever you do. On the one hand, there's the Cursed Founding - a convenient answer to gene-seed manipulation - and there is baggage that comes with that. On the other, you could go the really long route and come up with a narrative where the Chapter solves the problem, with or without help, themselves. This particular option is less favourable seeing as it would rely on good writing and will to stay the course, whatever the critique may be.

Maybe there is something I can offer in the way of ideas: Have you considered albinism as a side effect of the Cursed Founding? It's a mutation, a relatively benign one, that could help go some way to selling the idea that the Chapter gene-seed ain't as good as the parent stock. Maybe the brothers of the Chapter suffer from some form of anaemia, in conjunction with the albinism.

I realise it's completely the opposite to your intended 'solution' to their melanchromatic issues but, hey, it an interesting turn of events I think. Rather than solving their problem, the Imperium exacerbated it instead.

Its a fair idea however it completely undoes everything 21st founding was chosen for. 21st founding was chosen to allow the organ to be altered, meaning I can represent the chapters homeworld and recruitment pool more easily. Now I could just accept the white skin from the RG geneseed in which case 21st founding is pointless and would save me work

I guess I have another question, how much influence do you think my homeworld should have on its chapter

[Conn Eremon]

It might be helpful to point out that the Raven Guard's gene-seed does not immediately affect the Marine' skin, eye and hair color. There is a gradual shift that takes time. Eventually, the Marine will be alabaster-white of skin, and jet-black of hair and eyes. In the beginning, he will appear more like the native stock he was recruited from.

 

I don't really recall the timescale involved, but it certainly can vary among the XIXth's successors. Maybe a century might be a good upper limit, between an Initiate looking no different from his mortal life to a Captain of stark, Coraxian appearance.

 

If you choose the 26th Founding, which occurs just under three centuries from the "present day," the majority of the Chapter might be young enough for the gene-seed to not so terribly affect their appearance. Especially as Raven Guard gene-seed has other problems that make implantation successes more rare than other, more stable gene-lines. A Raven Guard successor almost three centuries old may still be trying to reach Codex strength.

 

Edit: As far as what is acceptable for a home world's influence, it can really vary from Chapter to Chapter, from total to non-existent. It's all about how much influence you want it to have.

[Minigiant]

If you choose the 26th Founding, which occurs just under three centuries from the "present day," the majority of the Chapter might be young enough for the gene-seed to not so terribly affect their appearance. Especially as Raven Guard gene-seed has other problems that make implantation successes more rare than other, more stable gene-lines. A Raven Guard successor almost three centuries old may still be trying to reach Codex strength.

Now this is a great idea, think I will do that