Treading dangerous ground? Is saying this heresy?

[veterannoob]

This came up in an interview over the weekend so the joke of bringing this topic up being heresy comes from that, so please, don't stone me for posing this (hopefully) interesting discussion point. :) The Angels of Caliban thread made me think of this but it's got to be it's own thread I think.

 

Can significant parts of the lore change now? Normally, I'd agree with everyone when discussing 30-39K about the "lore anchors" not changing, such as the death of Primarchs and other significant unfortunate fates befalling the legions. But since 40K is advancing the timeline now with the Wulfen I wonder could there be some actual surprises which align with the evolution of 40K over the next few years? Could we perhaps see major events such as lost chunks of legions returning, special characters, artifacts, dogs and cats living together??!

 

I don't have a position worth arguing on whether 40K will have its own end times or what that would look like but I honestly do think the lore might see some echoes of what happens in the BL releases over the next few years. As to what that scale might be, I can't say, on a scale of Primarch hands to RoboHorusBot 3.0. :)

 

Thoughts? 

 

[DarKnight]

This is exactly what I asked in the Angels of Caliban thread, I thought that McNeill saying with no equivocation (I did not listen myself so I'm taking the word of the posters) that the Lion was dead was kind of a big deal to go out of your way to make 100% fact. Seems much more GW policy to hedge on it, but does it matter if it doesn't come up in-universe? I think it doesn't happen at all if the HH didn't come along and GW couldn't capitalize off of such an important part of IP. As long as you can play Heresy games and buy the Lion's figure and all of the other lost/dead Primarchs, they can profit as well as but a period on the Lion's story.

[ElectricPaladin]

I always looked at this the same way I look at "facts" I talk about when I'm running a roleplaying game. It's a fact when it's happened on the table. And even then, anything you didn't directly see is subject to change behind the scenes. So it doesn't matter to me if someone says that the Lion is definitely dead. Good for him, that's a great idea... but maybe someone else will come along and change that. That's fine by me, as well.

[veterannoob]

It will be interesting to revisit this topic in a couple years to see "how close we called it." :)

[Rob P]

It might be a little off topic but one of the most potentially interesting things was when The Outcast Dead didn't fit the timeline. As it ended up they managed to make it fit the timeline. However, it could have been great if that books started a shift which revealed that 30k was not necessarily an internally consistent setting.

 

Getting back on topic, there are a number of lore changes that could be made to shake things up, but the more I think on it it could just be clarifications rather than massive u-turns. For example, Lorgar could die. Mortarion could turn differently (the known story could be a mis-telling of the Flight of the Eisenstein). Some of the big traitors could turn on each other before Terra. Ghost Ferrus Manus fighting alongside the Emperor in the webway. Alpharius definitely dies. No future Cypher bs. As so on. 

[HeritorA]

It would be uber cool to have changes like - Curze at last died along and forgotten - killed at last by Lion in next novel and his place is taken by the impostor. (All that kill me assassin crap is crap). And Alpharius would die too - in some unknown, mysterious way ;)

[The Red Thirst]

What makes this fandom and setting so great, is that despite McNeills standing as a long running Author, anything he says can be outright ignored...

We do it all the time, whether it be codex fluff, perceived incorrect character portrayal or even changes to key lore anchors. I do it with the Blood Angels novels and completely ignore the fact that they exist (with the exception of Fear to Tread), it doesnt fit my own perception of the 40k universe (and at this point are rather old). Thats not to say that Swallow is bad, I just dont agree with the lore and events in said books.

Its ok to have a different viewpoint to the authors and lore masters, 40k is a reality of half-truths and outright lies mixed with assumptions and whispered secrets. Have fun with it and stay awesome.

[b1soul]

Thats not to say that Swallow is bad

Allow me...

 

Swallow is bad. I haven't read anything redeeming by him. I suppose his Garro work is tolerable...but even Nick Kyme has Fall of Damnos, which I actually enjoyed.

 

It would be uber cool to have changes like - Curze at last died along and forgotten - killed at last by Lion in next novel and his place is taken by the impostor. (All that kill me assassin crap is crap). And Alpharius would die too - in some unknown, mysterious way ;)

Oh trust me...I can't stand the Curze fanboys who claim that Curze would stomp Dorn (because of what happens in Lightning Tower/Dark King) or that Curze > Lion + Guilliman (despite his defeat by the Lion alone in Prince of Crows) . . . so I wouldn't mind having the Lion serve Curze another plate of whoopass.

 

However, I'm not so sure whether having the Lion kill Curze would be a more meaningful death than death by Emperor's assassin

[HeritorA]

b1soul - Horus Heresy need surprises.

[Carach]

There has already been surprises, and there can continue to be surprises, without drastically changing the main events. 

[HeritorA]

There has already been surprises, and there can continue to be surprises, without drastically changing the main events. 

Oh really? Which one?

[DarkChaplain]

 

There has already been surprises, and there can continue to be surprises, without drastically changing the main events. 

Oh really? Which one?

 

 

Vulkan's fate. Imperium Secundus. Angron's ascension happening years before the Siege. Sotha and its role related to the Tyranid invasion. Ollanius making an appearance. The Damnation Cache being featured. The origins of the Codex Astartes. Changes to the Corax genecrafting incident. The way Bjorn lost his hand. The whole of the Dark Angels loyalty question. The Red Thirst/Black Rage. Individual characters' development. The way Fulgrim ascended. Perturabo being more than a brute force siegemaster. The psychic defences of Terra and the Imperial Palace. The Void Dragon. Fulgrim being possessed by the Laer weapon (not in the original background). Wolf packs to watch the Primarchs.

 

Really, examples of divergence from the old, rough background material are all over the place. In almost every case, they are improvements and add depth to the overall conflict.

[HeritorA]

 

 

There has already been surprises, and there can continue to be surprises, without drastically changing the main events. 

Oh really? Which one?

 

 

Vulkan's fate. Imperium Secundus. Angron's ascension happening years before the Siege. Sotha and its role related to the Tyranid invasion. Ollanius making an appearance. The Damnation Cache being featured. The origins of the Codex Astartes. Changes to the Corax genecrafting incident. The way Bjorn lost his hand. The whole of the Dark Angels loyalty question. The Red Thirst/Black Rage. Individual characters' development. The way Fulgrim ascended. Perturabo being more than a brute force siegemaster. The psychic defences of Terra and the Imperial Palace. The Void Dragon. Fulgrim being possessed by the Laer weapon (not in the original background). Wolf packs to watch the Primarchs.

 

Really, examples of divergence from the old, rough background material are all over the place. In almost every case, they are improvements and add depth to the overall conflict.

 

Vulkan's fate - someone even care about that?

Imperium Secundus - nothing good where so far, except Pharos.

'ngron's ascension happening years before the Siege. Sotha and its role related to the Tyranid invasion.' - how that even by small degree relevant to HH?

Ollanius making an appearance - ? :cussload of Codexes and old fluff books.

The Damnation Cache being featured - and the relevance of it?

The origins of the Codex Astartes - what is a surprise here?

The way Bjorn lost his hand - someone was interested how some astartes lost his hand? OOO

Wolf packs to watch the Primarchs - the stupiest stuff from all the HH.

 

Only 2 surprises (which are actually not) - The whole of the Dark Angels loyalty question and The Void Dragon. Fulgrim being possessed by the Laer weapon.

 

The only 1 real big surprise in HH so far are Alpharius/Omegon duo. That WAS a surprise.

 

Curze dying would have been a true ripple in a stagnant pool.

[DarkChaplain]

Plenty of people did care about Vulkan. I still do want to know what's up. Nevermind that there always were conflicting statements about him being dead but also present to voice his support of the Codex Astartes post-Heresy.

 

Imperium Secundus has a couple of good stories in it, but I feel it has been mishandled overall. Abnett's TUE wanted very much to be a different book, and only remembered that IS was a thing at the very end. The Imperium Secundus arc actually started with Rules of Engagement by Graham McNeill, back in book 16. That's how long that must've been discussed.

Angron's ascension is obviously relevant in that it tells us more about a Primarch and his involvement in the Heresy. We knew he'd go Daemon Primarch before long, same with Lorgar and Fulgrim, but we haven't known *how* they got there. And the Tyranid invasion angle links one more 40k relevant thing back to the Imperium's origin story.

Ollanius has been pretty much absent for ages, and only referenced in the vaguest sense. Now we have him on the stage as an actual character, not a myth.

The Damnation Cache is relevant as one more of those things that originated during the HH and had an impact shortly after and in the 41st Millennium, being one of the first proving grounds for the newly founded Grey Knights. It will also have an effect on the rest of the series somewhere, seeing how Pythos ended with Madail going on a merry hunt. The Cache is one of the biggest warp gates during the Heresy and opens up a lot of daemonic support for Horus.

 

The surprises with the Codex Astartes are: Guilliman abandoned his previous attempt, Aeonid Thiel being involved by giving Guilliman ideas of unorthodox warfare away from the Legion style (before that, he hadn't even thought of combat squads, nevermind splitting the Legions). The Codex Astartes is also no longer simply a post-Heresy thing, but took root during the Heresy itself. There are plenty of things here and there that might be surprising, like Roboute's stance on it being a guideline, not gospel.

 

Yes, I was interested in seeing Bjorn losing his hand (as there had been canon conflicts about it before) and how he earned his Wolf Claw. Turns out he basically stole it.

And as much as I dislike the wolf packs idea, it makes sense for Malcador to send envoys to the Legions. The dumb part is that its wolves, and that they were sent so late as to arrive only when the Heresy was already happening for the most part.

 

Curze dying would be the most idiotic thing to happen. He's well documented past the Heresy, and his whole arc makes no freakin' sense were he to be killed off anyway.

[Augustus]

I was thinking that since the revelation in Gav's "Unforgiven" an alternate or changed timeline would be pretty cool and definitely possibly -- especially as a way to smooth out any inconsistencies.

[Rob P]

The Cabal and the Perpetuals were a pretty big surprise.

 

Also, it wasn't just that there was an Omegon that was a surprise, but the role that the twin primarchs play in the Heresy.

 

I think there is scope for further significant changes going forward that don't need to send ripples to 40k. With that in mind I don't think it would be problematic for Curze to die differently or for Lorgar to die.

 

It's stepping into the scouring, but i'd be majorly annoyed if Alpharius does not get killed by Guilliman.

[HeritorA]

The Cabal and the Perpetuals were a pretty big surprise.

Also, it wasn't just that there was an Omegon that was a surprise, but the role that the twin primarchs play in the Heresy.

I think there is scope for further significant changes going forward that don't need to send ripples to 40k. With that in mind I don't think it would be problematic for Curze to die differently or for Lorgar to die.

It's stepping into the scouring, but i'd be majorly annoyed if Alpharius does not get killed by Guilliman.

He wouldn't be. Omegon will die in his stead - doublecrossed by Alpharius

Plenty of people did care about Vulkan. I still do want to know what's up. Nevermind that there always were conflicting statements about him being dead but also present to voice his support of the Codex Astartes post-Heresy.

Imperium Secundus has a couple of good stories in it, but I feel it has been mishandled overall. Abnett's TUE wanted very much to be a different book, and only remembered that IS was a thing at the very end. The Imperium Secundus arc actually started with Rules of Engagement by Graham McNeill, back in book 16. That's how long that must've been discussed.

Angron's ascension is obviously relevant in that it tells us more about a Primarch and his involvement in the Heresy. We knew he'd go Daemon Primarch before long, same with Lorgar and Fulgrim, but we haven't known *how* they got there. And the Tyranid invasion angle links one more 40k relevant thing back to the Imperium's origin story.

Ollanius has been pretty much absent for ages, and only referenced in the vaguest sense. Now we have him on the stage as an actual character, not a myth.

The Damnation Cache is relevant as one more of those things that originated during the HH and had an impact shortly after and in the 41st Millennium, being one of the first proving grounds for the newly founded Grey Knights. It will also have an effect on the rest of the series somewhere, seeing how Pythos ended with Madail going on a merry hunt. The Cache is one of the biggest warp gates during the Heresy and opens up a lot of daemonic support for Horus.

The surprises with the Codex Astartes are: Guilliman abandoned his previous attempt, Aeonid Thiel being involved by giving Guilliman ideas of unorthodox warfare away from the Legion style (before that, he hadn't even thought of combat squads, nevermind splitting the Legions). The Codex Astartes is also no longer simply a post-Heresy thing, but took root during the Heresy itself. There are plenty of things here and there that might be surprising, like Roboute's stance on it being a guideline, not gospel.

Yes, I was interested in seeing Bjorn losing his hand (as there had been canon conflicts about it before) and how he earned his Wolf Claw. Turns out he basically stole it.

And as much as I dislike the wolf packs idea, it makes sense for Malcador to send envoys to the Legions. The dumb part is that its wolves, and that they were sent so late as to arrive only when the Heresy was already happening for the most part.

Curze dying would be the most idiotic thing to happen. He's well documented past the Heresy, and his whole arc makes no freakin' sense were he to be killed off anyway.

Curze dying would be the most idiotic thing to happen. He's well documented past the Heresy, and his whole arc makes no freakin' sense were he to be killed off anyway. - IT'S TIME FOR A CHANGE. And it should start at HH, not at the W40K times.

[DarkChaplain]

 

IT'S TIME FOR A CHANGE. And it should start at HH, not at the W40K times.

 

Changing well-established facts, scenes we have actually SEEN HAPPEN ALREADY and that a whole character is based around is ridiculous. Change for change's sake isn't a good thing. It needs to make sense in the context of the lore and established material, not happen just to be edgy.

 

Curze isn't going to die. His vindication is coming to him, post Heresy, on Tsagualsa, at the hands of M'Shen (who already got a mention in the Heresy in Nemesis). He goes willingly, just as he said it would happen. That is the whole point of the character: He cannot escape his ultimate fate, and does not want to at that point.

We have seen those things happen in AD-B's works before. They won't change that.

[HeritorA]

IT'S TIME FOR A CHANGE. And it should start at HH, not at the W40K times.

Changing well-established facts, scenes we have actually SEEN HAPPEN ALREADY and that a whole character is based around is ridiculous. Change for change's sake isn't a good thing. It needs to make sense in the context of the lore and established material, not happen just to be edgy.

Curze isn't going to die. His vindication is coming to him, post Heresy, on Tsagualsa, at the hands of M'Shen (who already got a mention in the Heresy in Nemesis). He goes willingly, just as he said it would happen. That is the whole point of the character: He cannot escape his ultimate fate, and does not want to at that point.

We have seen those things happen in AD-B's works before. They won't change that.

I totally agree that each change should be well motivated and have planned consistency for it. And as Sanguinius said 'I will not be a slave to fate'

[Augustus]

If Sang felt that way he should have murdered Curze. Now he can go "nanner nanner you didn't kill meeee. now you are a slave to fate. " or at least not getting in its way?

[Prot]

This idea of static lore to me is funny. If you've been around this game long enough, then you know some significant parts of it changed eons ago. But now we're locked into this patten of believing what's been said in whole or part is law.

 

I also remember McNeil saying he presented a LOT of different takes on what happened to certain primarchs including leaving some very open ended situations available. It's up to some controlling entity at Black Library, and it's his/their final say. It's very easy to change what we believe to be an absolute 40K truth... you simply change it. You write as if people were mistaken, or the outcome of some story line was not quite truthful. There's a zillion ways of doing this.

 

There are no untouchable '40k facts'. This is entirely limited by the guy at the top of the food chain at Black Library. Like I said if you've been around 40K long enough you know some very big ideas were very grey eons ago.

[veterannoob]

I do admit when I started this thread I was specifically thinking about longterm fluff moving forward with the wulfen more than Primarchs coming back to life, though returning from *lost* totally possible. We've had some great discussion here about opportunities BL has especially now with these series and I look forward to what comes out.

It would be a little strange but possibly exciting to see Kurze have a different fate...or delay until the one we discover in the NL trilogy. I expect Vulkan but I'd love to see more of the demon primarchs in play beyond what BL has done with them so far. Loved Morty's heart (<--see what I did there) and I have bought but yet to read Angron's Monolith or the Hunt for Magnus. Who's that other guy??? Sssssssseeerrr, I mean, Fulllllllgrim. My 30K fix is providing enough of that. But Lion or Guilliman waking up could be fun.

[Augustus]

Do the author's read each other's books in full? If not maybe that explains how they are not as sick of Curze as I am :p

 

I ask that cause maybe they avoid reading them in full to avoid plagiarizing, or developing two stories of too similar themes.

 

I wouldn't care if any of the Primarch fates are changed. Although my only caveat is that it is changed and still good.

[veterannoob]

Do the author's read each other's books in full? If not maybe that explains how they are not as sick of Curze as I am

I ask that cause maybe they avoid reading them in full to avoid plagiarizing, or developing two stories of too similar themes.

I wouldn't care if any of the Primarch fates are changed. Although my only caveat is that it is changed and still good.

They don't. I interview authors all the time and they will say something before if, for example, it's a series but BOB has't read all of JIM and VERN's works. It's a lot so I wouldn't expect it except for Heresy titles.

[Lord Tharand]

I would not be shocked if Lorgar dies during the Heresy.  Both Erebus and Kor Phaeron might be lying he's alive to better control their brothers.