Letting your friends dictate your hobby.

[MakoBoy88]

Hi Gang.

 

I have a question for you, and this isn't intended to be attention seeking or even a bash of players, but j find myself in a bit of a hobby pickle and genuinely would like some constructive and realistic criticism.

 

So 30k, is low key in our area. And a friend and I decided to take the plunge together and hopefully draw other people in. He has a full company of 40k space marines. I had nothing really.

 

He bought into one Legion, and purchased all 3 special characters and Primarch, both special units and special Dreadnought.

 

I bought into Iron Hands at a discount sale and bought a complete army.

 

We have now played 6 games and today complained I am killing 30k for him. I have a Land Raider heavy army, low troops and max vehicles. He fields a lot of infantry and not much else. He struggles to beat me and usually gives up and complains. Then manages a draw but is very h gracious about it.

 

He now says I should buy into a different Legion, or a whole force upheaval, or even go anti fluff and take some more choices.

 

Now, to me playing 30k is to play to the story and play things you can't play in 40k. Sicarans, leviathans, Scorpius, gorgon terminators, primarchs. Whereas all of his army is just tactical squads and assault squads led by Erebus.

 

As some may know, I was planning on dropping 400 on Imperial Fists this weekend when I visit WW. But now I am having second thoughts and a bit of a hobby crisis.

 

How would you guys deal with this? I don't want to kill 30k as we have loads of local players recently buying into it. But I also don't want to feel as though I'm limiting myself.

 

Thoughts?

[Frater Cornelius]

Dick punch your friend and tell him to man up! :teehee:

 

Seriously, though. Tell him to take it easy and analyse what is going wrong. Make list swaps and try to beat your Land Raiders yourself. Change your lists and play around. Playing the same lists every time won't change jack. Try to approach it like grown matures and solve it together. If he just bitches and tells you to buy a new army then he isn't worth the time to begin with. Work as a community.

 

Besides, your 30k buddy, while important, is not the be all end all. 30k vs 40k works just fine so you will always have some opponent as long as there is 40k.

 

As for your army, keep Iron Hands and don't drop money on IF. Get some Dreadnoughts and run Fury of the Ancient. Get some Predators and run the new tank RoW. There is plenty of room to play with while remaining fluffy and not flooding the board with AV14.

[The Fabricator General]

Interestingly I've been in a similar situation to you're friend. When I started I focused on infantry because as you referred to 30k being a fluff game I saw this as being legions of marines as they were far more numerous than in 40k. However the guys that I was gaming with when straight in for the big guns and that is a trend that I have seen through out the 30k community, big tanks that delete a squad of infantry a turn and a minimum of infantry. The thing to remember is that there is a social contract between the two of you, you are in it together and should both be working to make it an enjoyable experience. If the games aren't enjoyable for him consider not taking all the toys while encouraging him to get some pieces that can deal with the heavier armour in your force. I do wonder why you would feel that you would be limiting yourself by not taking some of these units?

[Yoye]

Say him to buy some grav rappiers, if he got some landspeeders let him proxy that they get grav weaponry.

Also he can put some flyers that deals with  armor

With grav weaponry killing armor is not a problem, also he could ally mechanicum that gives some great anti-armor options etc.

Also you could had some breachers/terminators that fit quite a lot the fluff or iron hands.

Also he cna put meltabombs in bikes etc...

Throwing a lot of bolter at tanks would be uneffective...

( PS: i found the same problem with some local players they put 70-80 marines in the table with mostly bolters and then complains that a leman russ killed 20-30 and was unscratched...)

Even alnd raiders are not sucha strong unit in 30k...

[Archidamus]

You could always recommend units he could take to deal with your Armour such as the aforementioned rapiers. There is also the heavy weapon squads if he's wanting to go down and commit to the infantry route. My Thousand Sons are in the same spot at lacking proper dedicated anti-tank weaponry (aside from the contemptor).

 

Make some alternative army lists up as everything is still 'fluffy' to a certain extent even with the Iron Hands who had a surplus amount of armour available to them. You could always use more terrain that allows him a bit more freedom of movement compared to your tanks, so he has terrain advantages over them. He could proxy stuff using his existing 40k space marine company if he's unsure of what he wants to add to his army so he could make a variety of heavy support squads or veteran squads with suspensor web missile launchers & tank hunters (depending on how much you like/dislike proxies). 

 

At the end of the day it's your hobby and enjoyment as well so you shouldn't feel the need to have to change because your friend is getting annoyed. Sit down have a chat talk about your current armies and their lists identify their strengths and weaknesses, then go 'X, Y, and Z will help you deal with A, B, and C.' Hopefully it'll lead to more enjoyable games and war stories to tell for weeks after the games.

[marine7312000]

Always remember that its YOUR army that you spent your money on and assembled\ painted. That being said, there's nothing wrong with doing a list swap to get the experience of a different army. I really wish I had a ton of money. If I had the money, I would put together one of EVERY army and let him pick.

[Balthamal]

This a bit of a tough situation as I can see both points of view. On the one hand, he does have something of a point if you're running the biggest badest mech units you can manage knowing that he'll get a stomping. On the other, you're under no obligation to take an army he'll have the time of his life playing against. It's a two way process and it depends greatly on what type of players you both are. There's some full on power gamers at my club who take the attitude "Man the :cuss up, learn to be a better player and then you might, might win" whereas I and a good chunk of the members are more "screw it so long as it's a good game it doesn't really matter on the result"

 

One thing you can do to help the situation is after games go through the things that worked for each of you and the things that didn't and then look at ways you make changes. You can be giving him ideas on what would be effective against multiple land raiders. It'll improve his experience knowing he can actually do something to dent you and it'll also improve you by forcing you to adapt around counters to your list. 

 

The one thing I can not stress enough in this though is remove any and all attitude from the conversation. You don't owe him a free win and you certainly don't owe him dropping a few hundred quid on stuff for an army that he can kill. On the other hand, keeping him in the current situation without at least offering alternatives would be a dick move and lessen the enjoyment of the hobby which is something you do owe.

 

Sorry if that comes across as mightily condescending but I've been in your friends situation and there's only really two ways of dealing with it: what I've suggested above and knuckle down or throw the toys out of the pram and rage quit

[Yoye]

if you play always with  the same  friend, 

what we do is we make two lists quite equilibrated, and then roll of a dice to see who takes wich one ( like 1-3 i take army A or 4-6 i take army B)

This is due that we have trust on each other that we would not mistreat other models, but i know a lot of folks that would never do that.

[Frater Cornelius]

There can no single solution. Both of you have a point. This is why I said to talk it out. Both of you will have to compromise and meet somewhere in the middle. Stick with IH but diversify your builds. He can get units that deal well with IH and alter his play style. If he refuses to change and does nothing himself, then forget it. This is a mutual thing and needs to be tackled that way. Extremism and selfishness is not the answer here.

[Scribe]

It's a two way street. I would try and tailor your list a bit, maybe take that money and buy some other options for the army.

 

That said there is nothing wrong with discussion about the goals of the game or types of lists you want to bring.

[Lord Blackwood]

Sounds like he just needs some anti tank. 

Change yer lists around , dont always field the same units. 

Play a special  mission that the two of you design

Use more Terrain 

There are a lot of ways to fix the problem if hes the only guy playing you then some concessions can be made here and there to make sure the experience isint just brutal for him all the time.  If hes playing Word Bearers he can do demon stuff right? Tell him to get in on some of that or something. 

If he really is yer friend then the two of you should be able to work this out , I would just  recommend not taking a stance in either huge extreme because going too far in either direction on this makes you look like a dick and no one wants that not you not him not the potential players yer trying to draw into 30k.

[MakoBoy88]

Interestingly I've been in a similar situation to you're friend. When I started I focused on infantry because as you referred to 30k being a fluff game I saw this as being legions of marines as they were far more numerous than in 40k. However the guys that I was gaming with when straight in for the big guns and that is a trend that I have seen through out the 30k community, big tanks that delete a squad of infantry a turn and a minimum of infantry. The thing to remember is that there is a social contract between the two of you, you are in it together and should both be working to make it an enjoyable experience. If the games aren't enjoyable for him consider not taking all the toys while encouraging him to get some pieces that can deal with the heavier armour in your force. I do wonder why you would feel that you would be limiting yourself by not taking some of these units?

I completely get what you're saying, but it's more a case of he had the units to deal with Land Raiders by virtue of having 15k points of marines. But chooses not to.

 

Whereas I bought a 2.5k army and don't have disposable to progress it just yet.

 

When we started, we was using a lot of daemon plough, and Mara Ghal, and Zardu Layak and it was all amazing and fun! But now it's just Erebus in a rhino casting psychic scream surrounded by tactical squads.

 

Just seems to me that the social contract you both enter into, should be about having fun. And if he isn't then of course we should both try and help, I just resent it all being my fault.

[Atia]

Who are your friends to tell you what to do with your hobby?

 

Of course there is the point that you should try to get some variation with your army, but your friend also needs to change his army. 

 

Maybe you two should try some Zone Mortalis games? These are just for infantry and dreadnoughts, great for smaller points games 'till your friend gets some tanks/anti-tank/whatever?

[Balthamal]

 

Interestingly I've been in a similar situation to you're friend. When I started I focused on infantry because as you referred to 30k being a fluff game I saw this as being legions of marines as they were far more numerous than in 40k. However the guys that I was gaming with when straight in for the big guns and that is a trend that I have seen through out the 30k community, big tanks that delete a squad of infantry a turn and a minimum of infantry. The thing to remember is that there is a social contract between the two of you, you are in it together and should both be working to make it an enjoyable experience. If the games aren't enjoyable for him consider not taking all the toys while encouraging him to get some pieces that can deal with the heavier armour in your force. I do wonder why you would feel that you would be limiting yourself by not taking some of these units?

I completely get what you're saying, but it's more a case of he had the units to deal with Land Raiders by virtue of having 15k points of marines. But chooses not to.

 

Whereas I bought a 2.5k army and don't have disposable to progress it just yet.

 

When we started, we was using a lot of daemon plough, and Mara Ghal, and Zardu Layak and it was all amazing and fun! But now it's just Erebus in a rhino casting psychic scream surrounded by tactical squads.

 

Just seems to me that the social contract you both enter into, should be about having fun. And if he isn't then of course we should both try and help, I just resent it all being my fault.

 

 

Like you say there's a social contract you're both involved with in terms of fluff/character/fun etc but there's always a point where that'll meet the practicalities of the game - a game where one side wins and the other loses and has rules to decide which is which. From what you're saying, he's deliberately stepping away from that to focus on the fluff/character which is outside of your control.

 

If you have the HH volumes play the variety of missions in there not just the bog standard bloodbath missions from the main rule book, no matter how anyone dresses it up that's what they ultimately are

[MakoBoy88]

Who are your friends to tell you what to do with your hobby?

 

Of course there is the point that you should try to get some variation with your army, but your friend also needs to change his army.

 

Maybe you two should try some Zone Mortalis games? These are just for infantry and dreadnoughts, great for smaller points games 'till your friend gets some tanks/anti-tank/whatever?

I think this has been suggested tonight as a plan :) and I hope something we can do.

 

It's not a case of him not having 30+ tanks and 12+ Dreadnoughts etc, he just chooses to not use them.

[Ishagu]

If I may, I certainly wouldn't change army because I'm told to, but would adjust my list to create a more fun battle for my opponent.

 

Clearly his list as it stands struggles with armour, large portions of his army can't interact with yours.

If it's not fun for him change the type of force you field. I always advocate we should play to our meta, then to fluff, then to efficiency.

 

Also make sure you're doing objective missions and not just kill-points.

[Brofist]

Is he your friend? Is he not having fun because of your army? Then I think you know the answer here. You're not obligated to do anything of course, but he isn't obligated to be your friend or play gamea with you either. It goes both ways. This is just a game and you should probably prioritize your persona relationship above tiny plastic dolls.

 

I would definitely lighten up my lists. If he is a worse player than you then play more of a mentorship role. Play games so they are close and help build up his confidence. Teach him things. Walk him through your decisions. Sign up for a team event or play some casual team games so he knows you two are in it together. 30k is cool, but if he is your friend who cares about your army and fluff. You should consider his enjoyment of the game in addition to your own.

 

If you only want to win, cool, but you'll need to find another person to play with because you are playing for different reasons.

[MakoBoy88]

Is he your friend? Is he not having fun because of your army? Then I think you know the answer here. You're not obligated to do anything of course, but he isn't obligated to be your friend or play gamea with you either. It goes both ways. This is just a game and you should probably prioritize your persona relationship above tiny plastic dolls.

 

I would definitely lighten up my lists. If he is a worse player than you then play more of a mentorship role. Play games so they are close and help build up his confidence. Teach him things. Walk him through your decisions. Sign up for a team event or play some casual team games so he knows you two are in it together. 30k is cool, but if he is your friend who cares about your army and fluff. You should consider his enjoyment of the game in addition to your own.

 

If you only want to win, cool, but you'll need to find another person to play with because you are playing for different reasons.

I definitely don't just want to win, I'm really not that bothered about it. He beat me for about 2 years straight at 40k.

 

I concede the point to soften my list as much as I can, and really don't mind doing that.

 

I think maybe I'm not putting the point across that he is a very experienced player with an absolutely huge collection. I am a very experienced player with a very small collection. And to be told to change it because it's too hard to beat, is frustrating when I know he easily could beat it if he just changed his army.

 

and I am playing my army for fluff. I have fluff for my Iron Father and my Gorgons. But he has nothing. Just uses Erebus because he is a Psycher and then uses a lot of infantry because.. Well I don't know why. But there isn't a fluff decision from him to do that.

[Dizzyeye01]

It's not your fault for him deciding to just bring Erebus, that's on him. From what you've said it seems like he's being the unreasonable one in terms of making an army for him to kill. Since you don't have the money to spend tell him that while you can't make additions now you can always make changes later on. It is a two way street after all and your mate should understand that.

[Brofist]

Is he your friend? Is he not having fun because of your army? Then I think you know the answer here. You're not obligated to do anything of course, but he isn't obligated to be your friend or play gamea with you either. It goes both ways. This is just a game and you should probably prioritize your persona relationship above tiny plastic dolls.

I would definitely lighten up my lists. If he is a worse player than you then play more of a mentorship role. Play games so they are close and help build up his confidence. Teach him things. Walk him through your decisions. Sign up for a team event or play some casual team games so he knows you two are in it together. 30k is cool, but if he is your friend who cares about your army and fluff. You should consider his enjoyment of the game in addition to your own.

If you only want to win, cool, but you'll need to find another person to play with because you are playing for different reasons.

I definitely don't just want to win, I'm really not that bothered about it. He beat me for about 2 years straight at 40k.

I concede the point to soften my list as much as I can, and really don't mind doing that.

I think maybe I'm not putting the point across that he is a very experienced player with an absolutely huge collection. I am a very experienced player with a very small collection. And to be told to change it because it's too hard to beat, is frustrating when I know he easily could beat it if he just changed his army.

and I am playing my army for fluff. I have fluff for my Iron Father and my Gorgons. But he has nothing. Just uses Erebus because he is a Psycher and then uses a lot of infantry because.. Well I don't know why. But there isn't a fluff decision from him to do that.

Ah, yeah, that clears up quite a bit Just talk to him about it then. Don't start a new army, but talk to him about what kinds of meta and games you want to play. Smashing piles of dudes into each other can be really fun and fluffy. Just get your priorities aligned and then you're set.

[MakoBoy88]

After a few texts and chats he has decided to buy a Glotkin and get some more Daemon allies.

 

And I'm going to go full Breacher, but not apply liberal use of Apothecary's and so forth haha

[Atia]

After a few texts and chats he has decided to buy a Glotkin and get some more Daemon allies.

 

And I'm going to go full Breacher, but not apply liberal use of Apothecary's and so forth haha

As what do you guys want to use Glotti? Scabeithrax count as? Just curious :)

[MakoBoy88]

Probably just a GUO? I used to run Plague Marines for years so I think he wants revenge now haha.

[Memento Of Prospero]

Honestly,  you are Iron Hands. Flesh is weak and your Rite of War is the Head of the Gorgon. It's ridiculously fluffy for you to run big armour and fewer troops, because that's what your RoW does.

 

which legion does he play? They all have access to melta bombs, grav weapons and chain fists. It's time for him to man up, not up to you to squander income to cater to his bruised ego.

[Athrawes]

Honestly, if you're both each others primary opponents, you both need to vary your lists, buy a few units that are fluffy for your iron hands, to allow you to run alternate lists and your friend needs to get a bit more anti tank into his Word Bearer list.

 

It's your hobby so you can do what ever you want, I think it's perfectly reasonably for friends to change up their armies a bit if one or the other is losing interest (assuming you want to keep him in the hobby).