Who would be your Dauntless Few?

[Calas Typhon]

 

 

Some of the Primarchs did accuse Guilliman of being smug and superior in his attitude, but can't that just be their jealousy talking...?

I mean, its not like he did not come across smug or superior, for example the whole Lorgar situation, the Alpharius situation taking that city and Peturabo with the Decimation.

 

Its not jealousy on their fronts, they have legitimate reasons to see him as such.

And yet in their weakness they chose to resent him, rather then rise up and try to surpass him.

 

 

Well Lorgar changed his views when he accepted Chaos and rose to unthought of levels of power and Perturabo seems to have been right with the Decimation, as it achieved what he wanted, who knows if he gave any attention to Guilliman after that event. Alpharius is a bit conflicting so we might explore more of that in the future but from what I gather, surpassing him is exactly what he was doing militarily.

[Calas Typhon]

 

I mean, its not like he did not come across smug or superior, for example the whole Lorgar situation, the Alpharius situation taking that city and Peturabo with the Decimation.

 

Its not jealousy on their fronts, they have legitimate reasons to see him as such.

 

That Lorgar was misinterpreting Guilliman's motives was made clear not just in 'The First Heretic' but unmistakenly so in 'Know No Fear'. Concerning Alpharius' excentric actions, Guilliman was mentioned as but one specific of many individuals who had disagreed with them. In contrast, only one individual, Horus, was mentioned as instead praising Alpharius. And protesting against another Primarch's ill treatment of his warriors is not a selfish act. Those are not examples of Guilliman being smug or egoistical.

 

What I am saying is, the Primarchs would definately view him as superior in those events and it is understandable why they would believe him as smug or superior, through misinterpretation or otherwise. (Lorgar definately would not see that after that storm on Monarchia).

 

Alpharius again would not see it that way and would see it as chastisement or Guilliman acting superior to him.

 

We know the motives of Guilliman for we are reading the story and getting all the views, in universe, they are not and they only see through the events that are unfolding.

[Ishagu]

This is the reason why Guilliman wasn't Warmaster. On merit and ability he's the perfect candidate, but he rubbed a few people the wrong way whether intentionally or not.

[Scribe]

This thread is making a turn towards entertaining... :)

 

There are many paths and motives for the building of power. I do not believe that Rob wanted supreme personal power.

 

I do believe from the more adult 30K perspective he wanted things to run his way, if not the Emperors.

[Remus Ventanus.]

 

 

I mean, its not like he did not come across smug or superior, for example the whole Lorgar situation, the Alpharius situation taking that city and Peturabo with the Decimation.

 

Its not jealousy on their fronts, they have legitimate reasons to see him as such.

 

That Lorgar was misinterpreting Guilliman's motives was made clear not just in 'The First Heretic' but unmistakenly so in 'Know No Fear'. Concerning Alpharius' excentric actions, Guilliman was mentioned as but one specific of many individuals who had disagreed with them. In contrast, only one individual, Horus, was mentioned as instead praising Alpharius. And protesting against another Primarch's ill treatment of his warriors is not a selfish act. Those are not examples of Guilliman being smug or egoistical.

 

What I am saying is, the Primarchs would definately view him as superior in those events and it is understandable why they would believe him as smug or superior, through misinterpretation or otherwise. (Lorgar definately would not see that after that storm on Monarchia).

 

Alpharius again would not see it that way and would see it as chastisement or Guilliman acting superior to him.

 

We know the motives of Guilliman for we are reading the story and getting all the views, in universe, they are not and they only see through the events that are unfolding.

 

I dont see how Guilliman thinks he is superior when he has formed tactics and units from what his brothers have done. He may be a starch arse, but i dont believe him to have a superiority complex

[Calas Typhon]

 

What I am saying is, the Primarchs would definately view him as superior in those events and it is understandable why they would believe him as smug or superior, through misinterpretation or otherwise. (Lorgar definately would not see that after that storm on Monarchia).

 

 

Alpharius again would not see it that way and would see it as chastisement or Guilliman acting superior to him.

 

We know the motives of Guilliman for we are reading the story and getting all the views, in universe, they are not and they only see through the events that are unfolding.

 

I dont see how Guilliman thinks he is superior when he has formed tactics and units from what his brothers have done. He may be a starch arse, but i dont believe him to have a superiority complex

Again, we know the events and how different characters think and what the think of other Primarchs. But those parties who might view him as superior do not in Universe.

 

Guilliman might not think himself above or superior to his brothers, but due to events during the Great Crusade and onwards, some might be led to believe he thinks that way. The Primarchs stated above might be prime examples of events leading them to believe Guilliman is acting superior to them.

 

I do not think that Guilliman is superior, however I understand why other Primarchs may view him as such and I can see examples where he comes across as such.

[Knight of the Raven]

This is the reason why Guilliman wasn't Warmaster. On merit and ability he's the perfect candidate, but he rubbed a few people the wrong way whether intentionally or not.

It's not really on topic, but I wanted to comment on that. Well, quote an old post of mine actually.

 

I'm not sure Guilliman would have been a good choice. Yes, he's a master logistician and can solve the public debt of every country on earth in his sleep, but he doesn't strike me as hypocritical compromising enough to be Warmaster. It's not only deciding who and what go where and how; it's also about convincing Mortarion not to pounce on Magnus when he turns his back to look condescendingly down on some marine who never heard the word 'jentacular' before, praising without meaning it Alpharius for wasting three months on one backwater planet when even Lorgar managed to conquer three planets in the same time so that he's 000,17% less likely to stab you in the back before the next meeting, not punching Perturabo in the face for demanding to be treated with respect when that jerk doesn't even consider his own sons people and so on.

Militarily speaking, Guilliman would indeed make a fine warmaster, and probably one who doesn't throw the Raven Guard into the meat grinder just so his legion can look better. But the title of warmaster is as much about warfare as it is about politics. Maybe even more about the latter.

 

To be more on topic, I'd take the Ultramarines. Always. If only because I don't have to worry about going back to that defeated world because the only guys left defending it from xenos and/or rebels after I killed everyone who didn't agree with Dad were Kicks the janitor and Giggles the gardener.

[Kol Saresk]

Hey! Giggles is very dependable! So what if he couldn't grow a garden with an overabundance of greenhouse gases and rain?

 

 

 

 

 

What I am saying is, the Primarchs would definately view him as superior in those events and it is understandable why they would believe him as smug or superior, through misinterpretation or otherwise. (Lorgar definately would not see that after that storm on Monarchia).

 

 

Alpharius again would not see it that way and would see it as chastisement or Guilliman acting superior to him.

 

We know the motives of Guilliman for we are reading the story and getting all the views, in universe, they are not and they only see through the events that are unfolding.

 

I dont see how Guilliman thinks he is superior when he has formed tactics and units from what his brothers have done. He may be a starch arse, but i dont believe him to have a superiority complex

Again, we know the events and how different characters think and what the think of other Primarchs. But those parties who might view him as superior do not in Universe.

 

Guilliman might not think himself above or superior to his brothers, but due to events during the Great Crusade and onwards, some might be led to believe he thinks that way. The Primarchs stated above might be prime examples of events leading them to believe Guilliman is acting superior to them.

 

I do not think that Guilliman is superior, however I understand why other Primarchs may view him as such and I can see examples where he comes across as such.

This times a million. We the readers know one thing. The characters in the book know something else. We get the advantage of seeing every angle the author feels fit to show us. That's why we can all hate Cuu for killing Bragg and yell at Larkin for not doing anything, even though Larkin will omly think Bragg was called by the Archenemy for another two books or so.

 

We all know Guilliman isisn't a complete and total egotist. Lirgar doesn't know that. Angron doesn't know that. Curze doesn't know that. And in reality, they don't care because it makes hating him that much easier.

[Remus Ventanus.]

Hey! Giggles is very dependable! So what if he couldn't grow a garden with an overabundance of greenhouse gases and rain?

 

 

 

What I am saying is, the Primarchs would definately view him as superior in those events and it is understandable why they would believe him as smug or superior, through misinterpretation or otherwise. (Lorgar definately would not see that after that storm on Monarchia).

 

 

Alpharius again would not see it that way and would see it as chastisement or Guilliman acting superior to him.

 

We know the motives of Guilliman for we are reading the story and getting all the views, in universe, they are not and they only see through the events that are unfolding.

I dont see how Guilliman thinks he is superior when he has formed tactics and units from what his brothers have done. He may be a starch arse, but i dont believe him to have a superiority complex

Again, we know the events and how different characters think and what the think of other Primarchs. But those parties who might view him as superior do not in Universe.

 

Guilliman might not think himself above or superior to his brothers, but due to events during the Great Crusade and onwards, some might be led to believe he thinks that way. The Primarchs stated above might be prime examples of events leading them to believe Guilliman is acting superior to them.

 

I do not think that Guilliman is superior, however I understand why other Primarchs may view him as such and I can see examples where he comes across as such.

This times a million. We the readers know one thing. The characters in the book know something else. We get the advantage of seeing every angle the author feels fit to show us. That's why we can all hate Cuu for killing Bragg and yell at Larkin for not doing anything, even though Larkin will omly think Bragg was called by the Archenemy for another two books or so.

 

We all know Guilliman isisn't a complete and total egotist. Lirgar doesn't know that. Angron doesn't know that. Curze doesn't know that. And in reality, they don't care because it makes hating him that much easier.

 

But as Ishagu stated earlier, thats those primarchs own problem. 

[Kol Saresk]

Yes, it is. But everytime Cthonia brings up that it is those primarchs who think of him that way, the rebuttal is "but we know he isn't!" It's irrelevant what we know. It will only matters what the in-universe perception is.

[Calas Typhon]

 

But as Ishagu stated earlier, that those primarchs on problem for not trying to get to know Guilliman. 

 

This is the thing though, we do not have the full information on some of the relationships with other Primarchs. Unless I am mistaken, we have no information on the relationship between Lorgar and Guilliman prior to Monarchia do we? other than perhaps a minor mention in Know no Fear. It is entirely possible he knows him well enough. After all, they were pretty damn similar in nature bar Lorgars excessive Emperor worship.

 

It is entirely possible that they actually knew him well enough and that is where they get the views they have from.

[Hesh Kadesh]

 

 

 

Some of the Primarchs did accuse Guilliman of being smug and superior in his attitude, but can't that just be their jealousy talking...?

I mean, its not like he did not come across smug or superior, for example the whole Lorgar situation, the Alpharius situation taking that city and Peturabo with the Decimation.

 

Its not jealousy on their fronts, they have legitimate reasons to see him as such.

And yet in their weakness they chose to resent him, rather then rise up and try to surpass him.

Why would they need to? They see him as self righteous, pompous, uptight, and overly ambitious. He had no friends during the Heresy. Some recognised his ability, but Sanguinius tired of him, and The Lion called him out on it when there was less of a need to maintain a facade when for all they knew, they were the only 3 Primarchs still loyal to the Emperor, and even if the Rest of the Imperium stood.

 

For what Macragge and the '500' represented, the rest of the Primarchs also achieved, its just that they cared little enough to go around naming it after themselves.

[Amon777]

If all I have to do is attack I think any foe could be beat with BA, UM, and IH. Assuming I get their primarchs.

 

BA for the orbital assault and quick reaction. IH for mechanized warfare and resilience. And UM for logistics and large amounts of line infantry.

[Legatus]

For what Macragge and the '500' represented, the rest of the Primarchs also achieved, its just that they cared little enough to go around naming it after themselves.

 

"500 worlds" meains absolutely nothing. A drop in the ocean. Every Legion would have liberated thousands of worlds over the course of the Great Crusade. It is a complete mystery to me why anyone at BL thought it to be a good idea to increase the size of Ultramar from nine local systems which had maintained contact throughout the Age of Strife needed to a 500 world realm that was formed during the Crusade.

It is not an achievement, it is a blemish for a Legion to forge their own realm during the Great Crusade. As such the "500 worlds of Ultramar" retcon played straight into the Ultra-haters' hand. Now Guilliman really is the "empire builder" they had so long accused him of being. Whereas previously that had not been the case. Ultramar had existed before Guilliman entered the Great Crusade, and nothing Guilliman did throughout the crusade changed anything about it.

[Ishagu]

But his Empire was a jewel of freedom, efficiency and prosperity in an otherwise miserable galaxy.

 

Remember that Guilliman made life for regular humans far, far better than anyone else even dreamed it could be in the Imperium. Also his loyalty to the Emperor can't be questioned.

[Lord Blackwood]

This topic has spiraled so far out of control it even brought Legatus out of the woodwork

[Slips]

Yeah.

 

So as much as the Discussion on just the Ultramarines is cool and all, this is about the Dauntless few and which Legions you'd include into your own version.

 

This isn't about the Ultramarines.

 

If it was, well, then history is set to repeat itself in regards to this topics lifespan if thats the case.

 

Back on topic.

[b1soul]

Have I shared my DF?

 

I'm WS

 

...so our weakness is we suck at attrition warfare or being solid as a rock. We are water, fluid and fast-flowing

 

1 of DG, Sallies, IW, Iron Hands for scenario 1

 

TSons, Sons of Horus, Blood Angels for 2

[Azkaellon3]

Well this topic has gone far...

 

But I'd say the problem with this fictional scenarios is that it ignores the actual relationships between the legions and the fact that the term "dauntless few" doesn't refer to its original meaning.

 

ANY legion could bring a system into compliance! But the sons of Horus and the ultramarines have brought the most planets into the imperium and so if there is the question you would be best at taking a world it are those two.

 

I think what this thread should be named (the most suited for its topic) "conquering force".

In my humble opinion it would be best if everyone choose legions regarding their relationship and also would give explanation on why they would choose them and not just say "oh I can bring down any wall" or "I just kill everyone".

 

We are talking about an empire which wants to conquer worlds they can use for themselves afterwards and not just have barren worlds that don't serve any purpose.

 

Also inuniverse war isn't just fought on the ground, what about space battles? Sure I can take world eaters and decimate every world but if my opponent engages me in heavy void battles I'm screwed.

 

 

But that were just some considerations from my side.

[Marshal Rohr]

But his Empire was a jewel of freedom, efficiency and prosperity in an otherwise miserable galaxy.

 

Remember that Guilliman made life for regular humans far, far better than anyone else even dreamed it could be in the Imperium. Also his loyalty to the Emperor can't be questioned.

 

*chuckles at freedom* 

[Remus Ventanus.]

 

But his Empire was a jewel of freedom, efficiency and prosperity in an otherwise miserable galaxy.

Remember that Guilliman made life for regular humans far, far better than anyone else even dreamed it could be in the Imperium. Also his loyalty to the Emperor can't be questioned.

 

 

*chuckles at freedom*

Catholic Church on Calth....

[lokkorex]

Secret police...

[Marshal Rohr]

Whoops

[lokkorex]

After having a d'oh! moment after remembering what guilliman actually said about his dauntless few, here's my revised lists:

 

With the sons of horus as main army, i'd would pick the blood angels, emperors children, imperial fists and iron hands.

Mostly because these legions and/or their primarchs had good relations with horus and his legions, and/or were able to complement each others fighting style, for example fists being defensive and the sons offensive, while the hands were highly mechanized and the sons more infantry-based.

With iron warriors as main i'd pick imperial fists, death guard, salamanders and world eaters, because all of these legions have somewhat similar mentality of never giving up and stubborness, or outright suicidal tendencies. Of course primarch relations between these legions wouldn't exactly be optimal, meaning ultimately they might require an outside source of leadership like horus or the emperor for these alliances to function properly.

[Scribe]

Who's got that quote about fearing more those who believe they act in our best interests..

 

I cannot find it but thats the Ultra's to me. They believe themselves to be right, and on the surface, for the majority perhaps they are, but they are Enlightened Dictators as Rohr states, and nothing more.