Beating Daemons with Guard

[Truesight]

I have a 2000 point game coming up against an opponent trying to knock my block off, expect maximum Daemon cheese.  I know he enjoys using Daemon princes, Fate weaver, Be'lakor and all the big nasties.

 

Any advice fellow commanders on how to come out on top?  I've never faced Daemons before.  My current list is looking like this: 

 

Death Korps Siege Regiment Death Rider Squadron

HQ:

Death Rider Company Command Squad

Elites:

Death Korps Rapier Laser Battery: 3x Rapiers

Fast Attack:

Death Rider Squadron: 5 riders, Power Axe

Death Rider Squadron: 5 riders, Power Axe

Heavy Support:

Death Korps Heavy artillery Battery: Basilisk

 

Death Korps Heavy artillery Battery: Medusa

 

Astra Militarum Combined Arms Detachment

HQ:

Company Command Squad, Volkov’s Cane, 2x melta, Chimera

Troops:

Infantry Platoon

20 Conscripts, Commissar

3x Infantry Squads, each with: Autocannon and Grenade Launcher

Platoon command Squad, flamer

 

Veterans, 2xmelta, Chimera

 

Fast Attack:

Vendetta

Vulture w/ Punishers

Heavy Support:

Heavy Artillery Carriage: Medusa

Heavy artillery Battery: Basilisk

Wyvern

 

Inquisition Detachment

Ordo Hereticus Inquisitor, 3x servo skulls, Psyocculum (unit is BS 10 against psykers)

 

Fortification

Aegis Defense Line with Quad gun.

 

 

I have Russes and another Wyvern as options.

 

The current plan is to simply smash anything that dares to appear on the ground with firepower and control the board with plentiful Objective Secured, while doing my best to negate the likely multiple flying monstrous creatures with my fliers and gun emplacement.

I had to drop a wyvern from the list to fit in the quad gun and psyocculum, but I think it might pay off, against daemons a lot of targets will be eating the blobs shots at BS 10, and I badly need the quad gun, it may be worth dropping something else though to keep the wyvern, not sure what though.

 

I also could bring Inquisitor Hector Rex, he seems to be able to bring an absolute beat down to any Daemons silly enough to get in combat with me, but he also appears to needs his spells, and I doubt I'll get a peep against his dice pool.

 

I would really appreciate any tricks anyone has learned for dealing with this army.  

[WarriorFish]

I've not faced Daemons either, but I do know a few things about them. For example they have invulnerable saves so in most cases you're better of with volume of fire - good job that's the Guard way ;) If he's keen on his princes then some form of AA would be an idea, otherwise it'd be a smattering of plasma and AT weaponry to bring their blasphemous constructs and creatures to ruin. My advice would be to trust in the strength of the Guard in numbers and fire power, I'm sure someone with more intimate knowledge can guide you more shortly :)

[Tallarn Commander]

Truesight, I’ve played against demons with my IG many times in this and previous editions.  Demons have always been a hard matchup for me (since you typically get only 1 turn to shoot at them before they hit your line), but the games are always very fun and dynamic.  At least they’re not bunkering down from across the board and shooting at you.  They’re not as powerful as they were a few years ago when you saw numerous flying circuses, but they’re still a very good list.  

 

Warriorfish is right on when he says that high strength is way more important than good AP since all demons get at least a 5++.  So your platoon’s ACs are good (although I’d go with flamers so that you can winnow them down once they hit you).  

 

I don’t really have any tricks to recommend, but I do recommend you shoot Flamers of Tzeench and flying caster FMCs first.  Flamers are what do the most damage to me in games against my regular demon opponent—man these chaps are nasty.  So they should be at the top of your target list if your opponent has them.  Flying buffing units are probably what you want to be targeting with your avenger and vendetta—you often see a lord of change and 1 or more other big things flying around dominating the magic phase.  Your twin-linked lascannons and avenger cannons can hopefully deal with these guys. 

 

With regard to your list, you have 55 dismounted troopers, some horses, a meltavet squad, lots of artillery/rapiers, some fliers, an Aegis and some tanks.  Your list excels in killing the enemy, but you lack durability.

1.)  Add more bodies:  You really don’t have that many troopers for a 2000 point game.  If you have the models, I’d say add at least some of the following:

-a platoon of Death Korps infantry into your Death Korps CAD

-add another platoon into your IG CAD (a standard platoon is superior to the Death Korps platoon because it can blob up)

-A 2^nd conscript blob

-Add more conscripts to your existing group of 20 conscripts.  

-Note that you could also go with more chimera-mounted squads, but this doesn’t really fit the feel of a Death Korps list.  

 

As you know, some of these infantry will screen your artillery so it’s not ripped apart by khorne dogs, beasts, or daemonettes.  And some of these infantry will advance so you can gain board control (e.g. be aggressive with some of your troopers).  If you don’t own the infantry models, you’ll just have to make do with what you have and disregard the above comments.

 

2.)  Drop the horsies:  They are fluffy and fun and if your opponent wasn’t bringing a “maximum demon cheese” list I’d say keep these guys.  But against a competitive, non-casual demons opponent you really as many cheap troopers as possible.  When you get off the charge with death riders, you’ll do some damage, but it will largely be mitigated by their invulnerable saves.

 

3.)  Drop the Quad Gun

You're better off served by the extra wyvern.  If you're dead set on keeping the aegis, you might be better served by a comms array (so you can improve the odds that the avenger and vendetta get onto the battlefield on turn 2) than by the quad guns’ shooting.  

 

4.)  Replace the Commie with a Priest

Demons don’t really shoot much (other than horrors and flamers) so you’d be better off dropping the commissar (and losing the ability to go to ground) and gaining the priests’ buffs.  

 

5.)  Drop Some of Your Bassies and Medusas for Field Artillery

Your bassies and medusas are superb and lethal.  But against demons their good AP is kind of wasted.  You might be better served by using the field artilleries’ (e.g. the heavy mortar’s) weaker but cheaper shots.  More is often better against a horde army like demons.  I was on the receiving end of a heavy quad launcher last weekend and, while the demon player would still get invulnerable saves, I think you’d eat through many of their units with them.

 

 

Good luck!

[Akrim]

Can you tell us any more about his force? Obviously you'll want some anti-air to force grounding tests on his FMCs. Concentrate your force so he has limited areas to fly.

 

A Culexus is pretty good for shutting down psyker powers, key being Belakors invisibility. An Inquisitor with Daemonhammer and Grimoire isn't bad either.

 

The lesser Daemons will fold to anti-infantry shooting.

[Arcima]

If you want to bring an Inquisitorial Detachment I would recommend bringing a Malleus in termi armor with brain mines, grimoire of true names, digital weapons, and a deamon hammer.  This will give you a very good chance of takeing out any deamon prince.  The Grimoire will reduce his WS LD by 5, you being an inquisitor will reduce his I to one, and the brain mines will have to make him take a LD check to swing at you in a challenge.  If you make him fail his LD 4 check each wound you cause with your deamon hammer will cause another check that if he fails will remove him from play.

 

I'm not sure the Melta Vets will get a ton of mileage here, other then the required slot.  I would recommend bringing a hellhound or two to deal with the screamers and possibly the pink horrors.  Best advice is to bubble wrap everything with bodies, once those pesky deamons touch those tanks they will pop.

[Truesight]

I've not faced Daemons either, but I do know a few things about them. For example they have invulnerable saves so in most cases you're better of with volume of fire - good job that's the Guard way If he's keen on his princes then some form of AA would be an idea, otherwise it'd be a smattering of plasma and AT weaponry to bring their blasphemous constructs and creatures to ruin. My advice would be to trust in the strength of the Guard in numbers and fire power, I'm sure someone with more intimate knowledge can guide you more shortly

Roger :)

1.) Add more bodies:

2.) Drop the horsies: They are fluffy and fun and if your opponent wasn’t bringing a “maximum demon cheese” list I’d say keep these guys. But against a competitive, non-casual demons opponent you really as many cheap troopers as possible. When you get off the charge with death riders, you’ll do some damage, but it will largely be mitigated by their invulnerable saves.

3.) Drop the Quad Gun

You're better off served by the extra wyvern. If you're dead set on keeping the aegis, you might be better served by a comms array (so you can improve the odds that the avenger and vendetta get onto the battlefield on turn 2) than by the quad guns’ shooting.

4.) Replace the Commie with a Priest

Demons don’t really shoot much (other than horrors and flamers) so you’d be better off dropping the commissar (and losing the ability to go to ground) and gaining the priests’ buffs.

5.) Drop Some of Your Bassies and Medusas for Field Artillery

Your bassies and medusas are superb and lethal. But against demons their good AP is kind of wasted. You might be better served by using the field artilleries’ (e.g. the heavy mortar’s) weaker but cheaper shots. More is often better against a horde army like demons. I was on the receiving end of a heavy quad launcher last weekend and, while the demon player would still get invulnerable saves, I think you’d eat through many of their units with them.

Good luck!

Great advice!

1/2-Yes unfortunately I am limited on models. I'm still building so my infantry element isn't able to go full blob mode yet. I'd consider dropping the horses, but then to get all my guns I'd have to take expensive DKK Troops choices, which will limit my infantry wounds even more.

3-I agree, in fact I've decided I'm going to drop the aegis entirely. I'm not sure how it can help me, daemon shooting seems almost non existent. I'm going to save more points by changing the Vendetta for another Vulture. Why get a quad gun when I can simply have 2 vector dancing fliers with 46 twin linked strength 5 shots. Dodge that daemon princes.

4- Done

5-I agree with the Basilisks, I will change them to Thudd guns for more punishing anti daemon firepower, the medusa's though I think I might keep, they should have no problem with targets as the enemy will be running at me, and they have the potential to Instant Death princes, with ignores cover and twin link orders it becomes a real threat.

Can you tell us any more about his force? Obviously you'll want some anti-air to force grounding tests on his FMCs. Concentrate your force so he has limited areas to fly.

A Culexus is pretty good for shutting down psyker powers, key being Belakors invisibility. An Inquisitor with Daemonhammer and Grimoire isn't bad either.

The lesser Daemons will fold to anti-infantry shooting.

Unfortunately my knowledge of his force in minimal. Never seen it fielded. I know he likes big gribblies and princes, and loves the new Daemon formations that came out in the new space wolf campaign. So I suppose the new 4 Daemon prince formation is a possibility? Or lots of Lords of Change and Thirsters with a screamer star?

I am giving a culexus serious thought, I may go out and buy one tomorrow.

If you want to bring an Inquisitorial Detachment I would recommend bringing a Malleus in termi armor with brain mines, grimoire of true names, digital weapons, and a deamon hammer. This will give you a very good chance of takeing out any deamon prince. The Grimoire will reduce his WS LD by 5, you being an inquisitor will reduce his I to one, and the brain mines will have to make him take a LD check to swing at you in a challenge. If you make him fail his LD 4 check each wound you cause with your deamon hammer will cause another check that if he fails will remove him from play.

I'm not sure the Melta Vets will get a ton of mileage here, other then the required slot. I would recommend bringing a hellhound or two to deal with the screamers and possibly the pink horrors. Best advice is to bubble wrap everything with bodies, once those pesky deamons touch those tanks they will pop.

How viable is a melee inquisitor against daemons? Will it beat a daemon prince hands down? I figured the psyccolum would just be good for buffing the blob, but if I can bring a model that can kill any pesky flying MC's that swoop in it might be worth it. I just checked out the malleus, the brain mines are an initiative check, but that's even better as if I charge him my grenades make him initiative 1, if he charges me the grimoire will knock it down by 5, meaning usually a 50% chance of him not being able to attack.

....I think I may have talked myself into it.

Updated list coming soon, thanks guys!

[duz_]

Daemons are tough

 

Artillery is useful and watch out for their flamers! Don't bunch your infantry too close

 

Force weapons are handy because although they have a 5++ and usually multi wound they're not EW even the daemon princes

 

Also worth noting in a kill point mission all daemon models count as being destroyed at end of game for kill point scoring

[Truesight]

New list:

 

Death Korps Siege Regiment Death Rider Squadron

HQ:

Death Rider Company Command Squad

Elites:

Death Korps Rapier Laser Battery: 3x Rapiers

1x Death Korps Heavy Quad Launcher

1x Death Korps Heavy Quad Launcher

Fast Attack:

Death Rider Squadron: 5 riders

Death Rider Squadron: 5 riders

Heavy Support:

Death Korps Heavy artillery Battery: Medusa

 

Astra Militarum Combined Arms Detachment

HQ:

Company Command Squad, Volkov’s Cane, 2x plasma, Chimera

Troops:

Infantry Platoon

Priest

3x Infantry Squads, each with: Autocannon and Grenade Launcher

2x Infantry squads with flamer

Platoon command Squad, flamer

 

Veterans, 2x plasma, Chimera

 

Fast Attack:

Vulture w/ Punishers

Vulture w/ Punishers

Heavy Support:

Heavy Artillery Carriage: Medusa

Wyvern

Wyvern

 

Inquisition Detachment

Ordo Malleus Terminator Armour and Daemonhammer, Empyrian Brain Mines, Girimoire of True Names, Psyker level 1.

 

Changelist:

Dropped: aegis line, basilisks, Vendetta, conscripts, commissar, Psyocculum inquisitor

Gained: 2x infantry squads with flamers, melta into plasma, wyvern, vulture, 2x Heavy Quad Launchers, Priest, Beatstick inquisitor

 

I almost feel bad for any enemy infantry that get put on the board.

 

Tactics question:  Should I castle up and make sure there is no backline or flank room for anything to be summoned or land, or spread out and make sure he can't focus everything on one part of the board.

I am currently leaning towards having pockets of supporting units across the board.

 

Battle plan:  Flamer squads, PCS and cavalry disrupt enemy charges by getting in the way of the main firing line.    Ignore FMC's totally if they are zooming, leave them for the vultures, if they come down they can eat ignores cover blob shots and rapiers/ medusas.  Destroy anything on the ground.  Priest and inquisitor goes in the blob.  If a prince or greater daemon lands near it for mischief the inquisitor can likely solo it.

[Akrim]

Looking good. The Inquisitor should be able to bop any DP or GD in assault if you're able to get force off. Remember Grimoire only works in a challenge, Empryean mines means they still test on I4-5 so no guarantees there. Good chance it IDs the Inquisitor at I1 step (unweildly vs psyc-out grenades) .

 

That said unless you're really good at multiple +5 terminator invuls, I would consider taking just multiple cheap Malleus hammer inquisitors just in 8pt power armour.

[Truesight]

Looking good. The Inquisitor should be able to bop any DP or GD in assault if you're able to get force off. Remember Grimoire only works in a challenge, Empryean mines means they still test on I4-5 so no guarantees there. Good chance it IDs the Inquisitor at I1 step (unweildly vs psyc-out grenades) .

 

That said unless you're really good at multiple +5 terminator invuls, I would consider taking just multiple cheap Malleus hammer inquisitors just in 8pt power armour

If I get the charge though wouldn't the psyk-out grenades mean that a daemon enemy is reduced to initiative 1 for the phase, thus his initiative is 1 for the test against empyrean brain mines?  I was counting on that combo for him to live.

 

What do you guys think?

Here are the rules:

Psyk-out grenades: When a unit equipped with psyk-out grenades launches an assault, any models with the daemon, psyker, psychic pilot or brotherhood of psykers special rules in the assaulted unit(s) are reduce to initiative 1 for the remainder of the phase.

 

Empyrean Brain Mines: Empyrean brain mines are used at the start of the fight sub phase.  Nominate one enemy model in base contact  with the bearer.  That model must pass an initiative test to avoid the brain mine.  If the test is passed, the effects of the brain mine have been resisted.  If the test is failed, the victim has been rendered memorability catatonic and cannot strike any blows during this sub-phase.

[Truesight]

Good point on the terminator armour though...  Anything he wants to be fighting will have smash and S6, so likely won't care what armour he has.  If I downgrade the terminator armour to carapace and lose the psyker level I could save 55 points and he still serves his purpose in the list.  Thoughts?

[Arcima]

 

If you want to bring an Inquisitorial Detachment I would recommend bringing a Malleus in termi armor with brain mines, grimoire of true names, digital weapons, and a deamon hammer.  This will give you a very good chance of takeing out any deamon prince.  The Grimoire will reduce his WS LD by 5, you being an inquisitor will reduce his I to one, and the brain mines will have to make him take a LD check to swing at you in a challenge.  If you make him fail his LD 4 check each wound you cause with your deamon hammer will cause another check that if he fails will remove him from play.

 

I'm not sure the Melta Vets will get a ton of mileage here, other then the required slot.  I would recommend bringing a hellhound or two to deal with the screamers and possibly the pink horrors.  Best advice is to bubble wrap everything with bodies, once those pesky deamons touch those tanks they will pop.

How viable is a melee inquisitor against daemons?  Will it beat a daemon prince hands down?  I figured the psyccolum would just be good for buffing the blob, but if I can bring a model that can kill any pesky flying MC's that swoop in it might be worth it.  I just checked out the malleus, the brain mines are an initiative check, but that's even better as if I charge him my grenades make him initiative 1, if he charges me the grimoire will knock it down by 5, meaning usually a 50% chance of him not being able to attack.

....I think I may have talked myself into it.

 

Updated list coming soon, thanks guys!

 

 

Ah well! I thought it was a LD check, but Initiative is even better, because the grimoire reduces that by five as well.  Your inquisitor has a very good chance of beating a daemon prince in melee combat, you are hitting and wounding on 4's (thanks to the grimoire) which is the reason to take digital weapons so you have that extra chance to re-roll the wound.  But the daemon hammer is for sure the LD check when he takes a wound.  Doesn't matter if he makes his FNP it still counts as an unsaved wound.  Granted if he fails his initiative check you are 100% dead, you only have to fail one 5+ save.  Still one of the best drop of points you can spend for fighting daemon princes.

 

Edit: You still have to snap fire at swooping FMC's.  You jump up to BS10 then drop down to one to snap fire because you are shooting at flyers.  The termi armor is for when you aren't fighting a daemon prince.  You don't need the Mastery Level 1 because your one chance at force will be shut down by a case of dice he throws at it. If there is a solo daemon prince he will have to accept any challenge you issue.

[march10k]

I would say that, against daemons, a culexus is absolutely essential.  They do two things with their psychic phase that are essentially auto-win buttons, although it's questionable whether they can do both of them simultaneously. 

 

First is summoning spam.  They can create enough new units every turn that you struggle to kill off the new models, and forget about making any headway against the units they actually paid for.  Fateweaver is an excellent platform for that sort of cheese because he has access to summon whatever he wants, and with flying, he can drop those new units wherever he wants.  Punisher vultures should take care of him, though.  

 

Belakor is only really there for one thing, a 100% chance of getting invisibility.  Expect him to be paired with a horde of hounds with embedded heralds. The hounds themselves have a squad size of 20 or 30, and they have no trouble spreading out so that the entire table is in charge range (castling would work better than anything else against this particular flavor of cheese) When I've faced Belakor's Invisible Puppies, they've killed 2-3 units a turn every turn from turn 2 till the end of the game.  Without taking casualties.

 

The hounds aren't actually that durable if they're visible.  So the culexus is key.  Unmask them and pound them. 

 

I would put the culexus in a valkyrie with rocket pods.  That gives him incredible mobility without exposing him to getting charged.  He can't prevent fateweaver from flying outside the no-casting bubble and summoning more daemons, but he can put that bubble right on top of the logical spot for the daemons to appear and make fateweaver drop them someplace else instead.  The hound pack is going to be fairly large, so it'll be hard for it to keep him from unmasking them.  He could even get out of the vakyrie and murder belakor.

 

Another flavor of cheese to be aware of is flying daemon princes of nurgle.  If they jink, it's a 2+ save, and they don't carry shooty weapons, so there's absolutely no downside to jinking.  They don't need to fly to evade your shooting, they can just do the jump infantry mode and jink their way across the table to start punching your tanks.  Unless you have AP3 cover ignoring shooting, they're pretty hard to deal with.  Massed multilaser fire, maybe?  They're only T5, but with a 2+, even S10 shooting is incredibly unreliable, even if it does give them anxiety with the "2+ or die" save.

 

 

 

 

Edit: You still have to snap fire at swooping FMC's.  You jump up to BS10 then drop down to one to snap fire because you are shooting at flyers.

Yes...unfortunately.  The psyoculum temporarily makes you BS10...but even BS10 models, be it natural BS10 or assisted BS10, they still follow snap-shot rules.

[Akrim]

Ooo good point, yeah I would say Empyreans and Psyk-out grenades stack. Good odds to kill a DP or GD, almost assured if you get Force and they fail an invul.

 

With stuff like Nurgle Princes and Be'lakor I would want to have a juicy unit to order ignores cover on.

 

Fateweaver will probably stay in the air all game if he's smart. Doesn't take much to ground and kill him though.

[Truesight]

Alright, final changes: I changed out the inquisitors terminator armour and mastery level and picked up 3 servo skulls and an armoured sentinel.  Stopping scout moves with skulls, and then charging and tying up a unit of bloodletters or hounds for the game with a sentinel sounds magical.

 

Match is tomorrow, wish me luck.

[WarriorFish]

Good luck, show them who's boss! :D

[CaptainHelion]

 Doesn't matter if he makes his FNP it still counts as an unsaved wound.  Granted if he fails his initiative check you are 100% dead, you only have to fail one 5+ save.  Still one of the best drop of points you can spend for fighting daemon princes.

This isn't true, by the by. FNP means that the wound is treated as having been saved. However, FNP cannot be used against wounds that cause instant death.

[Emicus]

My experience with daemons is that you need quantity over quality shooting. Because everything has a god damned invulnerable save you just need to shell the everyliving ghost out of everything with weight of fire.

​next up is "what flavour is it"
​1. Fliers, ah shucks. If it's a thirster looking for you to shoot it down so it can charge, don't bother. If it's almost anything else, it's still not worth it because 3++ invulnerable saves and things like that is too good.
​2. Soul Grinders. They're evil and where you'd actually want anti-tank capability. But because his entire army is going to be 'in the way' you're looking at suicide deep-striking units or Vanquishers. Neither an awesome prospect
​3. KDK. Awful to play against with Guard. If your opponent goes this route he'll likely have five billion hounds that aren't just fast but have 2 wounds to boot. Entire army will have FNP from turn 2 and onwards.

[march10k]

 

 Doesn't matter if he makes his FNP it still counts as an unsaved wound.  Granted if he fails his initiative check you are 100% dead, you only have to fail one 5+ save.  Still one of the best drop of points you can spend for fighting daemon princes.

This isn't true, by the by. FNP means that the wound is treated as having been saved. However, FNP cannot be used against wounds that cause instant death.

 

Yes, but not retroactively, by the by.  Anything that's triggered by an unsaved wound is triggered at the same time as FNP. 

[Truesight]

Well, I wish I could report my findings against Daemons, but my opponent decided to pull a fast one and surprise everyone by bringing 15 thunderwolves suitably deathstared that could run and charge in the same turn.  Luckily my list was still able to bring the hurt against them, and we ended on turn 6 with a draw on ITC mission 6, with myself winning primary, linebreaker and slay the warlord, and him getting maelstrom, first blood (First turn charge due to thunderwolves running + charging and Wulfen buffs) and slay the warlord.

 

The vultures were the star units, they both behaved and came on turn 2, and proceeded to absolutely lay on the hurt, and snatch two objectives turn 6.

[CyderPirate]

Nice one, Truesight, well played.

This is one of the reasons I don't have a problem with list-tailoring (to a certain extent) - the element of guessing/second-guessing and bluffing your opponent before the actual game starts! You gear up to fight what you think he's likely gonna bring, and he brings something completely different, but the surprise wasn't enough to secure him a win.

[WarriorFish]

As long as it's just bringing something unexpected and not saying you'll bring one army and taking another While my group doesn't list tailor (opponents are often randomised, too) there's always that element of "playing what's before you" - metas always exist even if you don't consciously build for them. This helps create a sort of cat and mouse game where people try to build for things and you to confound them by trying something different. It's why I advocate a healthy Guard collection so your opponents can never truly know what will be arrayed against them

Either way you earned a great result against such a list. I'd say that chalks up to a moral victory for you so be proud of your achievement! :D