Orkinstein Posted March 7, 2016 Share Posted March 7, 2016 Hi Brothers, I am a big fan of terminators ... so I always try to use them. But they performed so bad when I used DWRF or DWSF. Because now DW has to DS from turn 2. I found them usually did nothing but die other than 2 twin-linked missiles. They are basically close combat units. Can't arrive at turn 1 really hurt them... Then that make rest of our army in a bad situation especially when I meet other space marine armies which can alpha strike. I had a 2000 game yesterday. My DA vs my friend's Ravenguard. I ran a mixwing. A DWSF with 5 DW knights, DW command squad and a TDA Interrogator-Chaplain. A CAD for Librarian and grav-gun command squad. A RWSS with Darkshroud and Typhoon LS A RWSF contains 1 Nephilim Jetfighter and 1 Dark Talon. Some RWAS My friend used Ravenguard Pinion Battle Demi-Company and Ravenhawk Assault Group. He went first. His 1st turn reserves only failed 1 DP. By outflank and DS, almost all his army can attack mine at 1st turn. That means he use 2 times of points to attack my army because half of them still in reserve. Their Scout Sarge can give units in Demi-Company Ignores Cover which is pretty brutal to my RW units. The DWs did arrive at 2nd turn. But a lot of small guns and the Dread assaulted from Stormraven just crushed them into pieces. BTW I rolled three 1s save for three bolt gun wounds on my DW knights I am just thinking when we meet our sm battle brothers try to alpha strike maybe run DWs in a CAD is a better choice. Hide DWs in covers with Darkshroud they get 3+ cover save. Then They can assault the enemy units just landed without eating overwatch thanks to Darkshroud. And I feel that DW knight really need a Landraider...maybe a Redeemer so I can add a TDA chaplian in DW knights. Did anyone tried LS Vengeance in RWSS for interceptor? Thanks in advance! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/320128-need-some-advice-for-using-deathwing/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solrac Posted March 7, 2016 Share Posted March 7, 2016 The Vengeance is awesome in the RWSS. I used it at a Tournament not long ago. Most people avoided trying to deep strike straight in my face when they found out I could throw a S7 AP2 blast their way. The scare tactic alone was very worth it. The rest of the RWSS had Typhoon missiles and they are also awesome to intercept with. How far is the range on the ignore cover on the Raven Scout Sergeant? It sounds to me in your game you needed a better deployment strategy ala turtling in a corner. By the looks I think your lack of bodies didn't help either combined with the large amount of reserves you had. If you take the DWSF and is a good chunk of your army I would avoid taking anything else that has to go in reserves (e.g flyers). If you ever need some bodies for area denial or to do the castle/turtle corner deployment a couple of 10 man units of Scouts is cheap and effective. In a non-kill point game you can always combat squad them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/320128-need-some-advice-for-using-deathwing/#findComment-4329170 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orkinstein Posted March 7, 2016 Author Share Posted March 7, 2016 Thanks Brother Solrac. The Vengeance is awesome in the RWSS. I used it at a Tournament not long ago. Most people avoided trying to deep strike straight in my face when they found out I could throw a S7 AP2 blast their way. The scare tactic alone was very worth it. The rest of the RWSS had Typhoon missiles and they are also awesome to intercept with. I am going to try next time. But I just a little bit worry about running RW without Darkshroud since I only have one magnetized Darkshroud/Vengeance LS. How far is the range on the ignore cover on the Raven Scout Sergeant? It sounds to me in your game you needed a better deployment strategy ala turtling in a corner. By the looks I think your lack of bodies didn't help either combined with the large amount of reserves you had. If you take the DWSF and is a good chunk of your army I would avoid taking anything else that has to go in reserves (e.g flyers). Yes, you are right. Lack of bodies was a big problem yesterday. Scout Sarge can spot for another unit from the Company within 9", this unit get Ignore Cover. My friend usd 1 scout squad help Devastators, then the rest of scout squads lead Tacs outflank at 1st turn and give them Ignore Cover. Our flyers are the only units with skyfire though... did you used Black knights to anti-air? If you ever need some bodies for area denial or to do the castle/turtle corner deployment a couple of 10 man units of Scouts is cheap and effective. In a non-kill point game you can always combat squad them. I think scouts will help a lot to increase body count. Any advice for loadout of scouts? There are two boxes of them with different weapons... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/320128-need-some-advice-for-using-deathwing/#findComment-4329193 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solrac Posted March 7, 2016 Share Posted March 7, 2016 Our flyers aren't the best at anti air so if that's why you have them I'd drop them. If you want to dedicate something to it then maybe get an Aegis Defence Line with the Quad Gun or Icarus Lascannon otherwise I would ignore them or shoot at them with your RWSS/other jinking units after they have jinked. 6 Typhoon missile you are bound to get 1 six and if you force one of his flyers to jink that's a job well done. This is what I did at the Tournament I went to and worked well. If you are planning to use scouts as meatshields keep them cheap and give them bolters. 9" for ignore cover isn't very reliable just make sure all your stuff that can jink is toward the centre of the table and you should avoid it. You can always intercept the unit that is being spotted. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/320128-need-some-advice-for-using-deathwing/#findComment-4329301 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orkinstein Posted March 7, 2016 Author Share Posted March 7, 2016 Our flyers aren't the best at anti air so if that's why you have them I'd drop them. If you want to dedicate something to it then maybe get an Aegis Defence Line with the Quad Gun or Icarus Lascannon otherwise I would ignore them or shoot at them with your RWSS/other jinking units after they have jinked. 6 Typhoon missile you are bound to get 1 six and if you force one of his flyers to jink that's a job well done. This is what I did at the Tournament I went to and worked well. If you are planning to use scouts as meatshields keep them cheap and give them bolters. 9" for ignore cover isn't very reliable just make sure all your stuff that can jink is toward the centre of the table and you should avoid it. You can always intercept the unit that is being spotted. Thanks again. But that is one of their unit within 9" getting ignore cover. For example the Devastators next to their scout can shot 4 ignore cover heavy weapons. And his scout usually in a LS. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/320128-need-some-advice-for-using-deathwing/#findComment-4329313 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solrac Posted March 7, 2016 Share Posted March 7, 2016 Ahh I see how it works. Can he give it to any unit or just infantry? Haven't really read the new Ravenguard bag of tricks. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/320128-need-some-advice-for-using-deathwing/#findComment-4329370 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orkinstein Posted March 8, 2016 Author Share Posted March 8, 2016 Ahh I see how it works. Can he give it to any unit or just infantry? Haven't really read the new Ravenguard bag of tricks. Any unit in Demi-Company. Really hurt my RW. I need a Vindicare... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/320128-need-some-advice-for-using-deathwing/#findComment-4329460 Share on other sites More sharing options...
march10k Posted March 8, 2016 Share Posted March 8, 2016 Need some advice for using Deathwing Three crusaders, Belial leading seven thundernators, and sixteen knights...done and done! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/320128-need-some-advice-for-using-deathwing/#findComment-4329528 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orkinstein Posted March 8, 2016 Author Share Posted March 8, 2016 Need some advice for using Deathwing Three crusaders, Belial leading seven thundernators, and sixteen knights...done and done! Oh, my! I love this! I need 6 more knights! But that will be over 2000 points... How about: Combined Arms Detachment: HQ: Belial TH/SS Troops: Scouts x5 Scouts x5 Elites: Deathwing Knights x5 Land Raider Redeemer Deathwing Knights x5 Land Raider Redeemer Deathwing Terminator Command Squad x5 2TH/SS 1Apothecary Land Raider Crusader Librarius Conclave Ezekiel Librarian lv1 Librarian lv1 2000 points Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/320128-need-some-advice-for-using-deathwing/#findComment-4330248 Share on other sites More sharing options...
GruntAngel Posted March 9, 2016 Share Posted March 9, 2016 If you lose your landraiders your knights will be sitting ducks. So if you opponement only have to concentrate his firepower on 3 vehicles because there are next to no other bodies around... I feel the firepower of terminators simply cannot compensate for a diversified army that boost each others. The knights are slow and are good at defending or pushing for one objective but not at moving from one position to another. And their transports cost a lot. You need a solid back up or decent numbers to help your deahtwing. That mean units that have long range and can endure some deep strikes on their own. Scouts, many attack bikes squads of 1 unit equiped with multi melta, land speeder with typhoon missile and a darkshroud to force your opponement to take them into account when he deploy and move on his first turn, even a demi company with the strick minimum could be good, etc. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/320128-need-some-advice-for-using-deathwing/#findComment-4331121 Share on other sites More sharing options...
march10k Posted March 9, 2016 Share Posted March 9, 2016 GruntAngel, It's not an army intended to win Ard Boyz (although I did go to regionals with a similar army the last year they ran ard boyz...I beat one lance spam DE list and drew another...in three games, from a pool of 40 players, I drew 2 of the 3 armies that were my nemesis...I'm pretty sure the TO did that on purpose), it's ultra-elite, and therefore obviously not insanely competitive in a D6-based system. That said, killing one landraider is one thing, killing three of them in one game is pretty tough if you aren't unbalanced yourself. Anyway, even if some knights get forcibly dismounted, it's not the end of the world...T5 with a 2+/3++ is going to eat a lot of fire before going down, besides which in my ten years of playing mechanized deathwing, although landraiders died all the time, it was usually after they'd delivered their cargo into the enemy's lap...my bigger problem was immobilizing myself on terrain! Orkinstein, Redeemers are a terrible choice for deathwing. They excel at killing power armor, but are unlikely to get more than one chance per game to fire those flamers. Besides that, termies don't need help in the "MEQ-killing" department. Crusaders are much better for DW because they provide something you're desperately short on: small arms fire (and it should be shooting 4+ times a game, not just once!) Other than that, cool list! I guess if you're willing to pay the tax of ten scouts, you can still do mechanized deathwing. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/320128-need-some-advice-for-using-deathwing/#findComment-4331328 Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilB Posted March 9, 2016 Share Posted March 9, 2016 It's probably a filthy cop out for the DA purists on here, but wouldn't you be better off running a Land Raider Spearhead formation from the SM codex instead of taking the LRs as dedicated transports? That way you'd ignore those pesky immobilised results ensuring your Knights reach there destination. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/320128-need-some-advice-for-using-deathwing/#findComment-4331356 Share on other sites More sharing options...
GruntAngel Posted March 10, 2016 Share Posted March 10, 2016 That's good to know march10k. Every battle report I've seen with terminator armies failed rather spectaculary. I gave it a shot nevertheless. My problem when I runned the list with regular landraiders (2, and I borrowed one from a friend) wasn't with the vehicles themselves, it's when my troops got out of it. The guy was simply running away, shooting from afar and from cover while easily taking the rest of the objectives. Once he killed my small bikes squads it was a real pain to score points. I guess I lack experience. I'll keep your comment in mind and try again. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/320128-need-some-advice-for-using-deathwing/#findComment-4331387 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnakeChisler Posted March 10, 2016 Share Posted March 10, 2016 The problem with some of the new fancy formations such as the Raven Guard one is they can infiltrate, they also have a high incentive to take scouts. Faced with more and more Infiltrators & Scouting in my gaming group due to formations etc.. I now run a stock inquisitor with 3 servo skulls - best 34 points I ever spent with decent placement you can leave very few options for out of deployment infiltration, remember a unit needs to start at least 18" away. Shuts down Tau Stealth suits sneaking in close with locator beacons stops Skitarii bounding forward, blocks White Scars etc.. etc.. It also overrides the Assassin who can deploy within 3" of a unit, server skull wording says Infiltrators cannot set up or scout within 12" of them Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/320128-need-some-advice-for-using-deathwing/#findComment-4331828 Share on other sites More sharing options...
aura_enchanted Posted March 10, 2016 Share Posted March 10, 2016 I view terminators as a dessert unit, they have to act as one with other units in harmony to achieve a stronger reaction they just poofing them onto the table. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/320128-need-some-advice-for-using-deathwing/#findComment-4331946 Share on other sites More sharing options...
GruntAngel Posted March 10, 2016 Share Posted March 10, 2016 How much points for an ideal small back unit to get those servo skulls with the Inquisitor? I know nothing of these. Thanks! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/320128-need-some-advice-for-using-deathwing/#findComment-4331990 Share on other sites More sharing options...
march10k Posted March 10, 2016 Share Posted March 10, 2016 34 points Anyway, deathwing has a steep learning curve because of low model count, it gets even steeper when you mechanize them because you're cutting your model count even more. Under the previous codex, I was actually mixing deepstriking shooty and mechanized assaulty terminators to fairly decent effect (granted, the tanks had a 4++). One of the keys was using the crusaders to block LOS so that the incoming small arms fire was minimized. That's been a key all along, but when I added in deepstrikers (two codexes ago, my list was belial, 3x5 complex squads [for wound allocation shenanigans], three crusaders, and a dreddy) last edition, I had termies that were permanently footslogging once on the table, no ability to get back inside AV14 and ride off to the next assault target, that made "shaping enemy line of sight" with the land raiders even more critical. As I said before, though, I didn't lose land raiders to enemy fire on turns 1-2 very often (after that, at least the passengers were in the target-rich environment of the enemy deployment zone, not walking across the table under fire!), but I did immobilize myself on difficult terrain with maddening regularity (seems to happen to my IG Demolishers, too...) I haven't run pure or even pure-ish deathwing under the current codex. That's not because it wouldn't work, but more because the synergy between deathwing and ravenwing got turned up to 11 (12" telehomer bubble and my choice of turns 2-4 to come in? Yes, please!) and because this is the first time since 3rd edition that greenwing has been viable, and I'm reliving my glory days of fielding tactical marines (now supported by devastators and jumpers) that just plain outperform what you expect power armored generalists to be capable of. So these days, it's demi, rwas, and the non-lion's blade deathwing detachment for me. BS4 overwatch just drives people nuts, and with bikes zipping around dropping scatter-free terminators where and when I want, the enemy has better things to do than kill greenwing squads anyway. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/320128-need-some-advice-for-using-deathwing/#findComment-4332096 Share on other sites More sharing options...
NuclearSnowyOwl Posted March 11, 2016 Share Posted March 11, 2016 I haven't run pure or even pure-ish deathwing under the current codex. That's not because it wouldn't work, but more because the synergy between deathwing and ravenwing got turned up to 11 (12" telehomer bubble and my choice of turns 2-4 to come in? Yes, please!) and because this is the first time since 3rd edition that greenwing has been viable, and I'm reliving my glory days of fielding tactical marines (now supported by devastators and jumpers) that just plain outperform what you expect power armored generalists to be capable of. So these days, it's demi, rwas, and the non-lion's blade deathwing detachment for me. BS4 overwatch just drives people nuts, and with bikes zipping around dropping scatter-free terminators where and when I want, the enemy has better things to do than kill greenwing squads anyway. I just got my DA codex and core rulebook last night. I haven't played since 6th. What you are describing here march10k is exactly what I want to run. What is the "non-lion's blade deathwing detachment?" I only see the DW Redemption Force and the DW Strike Force. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/320128-need-some-advice-for-using-deathwing/#findComment-4333180 Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalleron Posted March 11, 2016 Share Posted March 11, 2016 The non lions blade detachment is the Strike force. Unless he is talking regular force org army with termies in it, which I doubt. I find the DWRF good if you want shooty termies and are trying to use bs4 overwatch. Though that's probably not a good use of point, but can be fun to field. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/320128-need-some-advice-for-using-deathwing/#findComment-4333238 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Sheol Posted March 12, 2016 Share Posted March 12, 2016 I think that having a DWSF is always better than a DWRF... If you get also a RWSF or RWAS then you have reserve control instead of "all together the same turn" and in a lion's blade you can have the RWAS with a LSV and the always useful 12" Homer... My army is usually a Lion's blade with JP chaplain (he goes with assault squad) leading the demi company and a RWAS (6 grav bikes and 1 LST or 1 LSV)... To this i usually add a RWSF to have BK and biker librarian and/or a DWSF to have a termi librarian 1 DWCS and 1 DWK squad.. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/320128-need-some-advice-for-using-deathwing/#findComment-4333504 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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