FW Veracity

[Marshal Rohr]

QUOTE (mal310 @ Mar 7 2016, 09:23 PM)

In the Forge World HH book 1, which describes the history of the Death Guard it states that Mortarian was given command of his legion immediately. I don't have the book to hand right now so I can't give a page quote. Now I know that this clashes with Chris Wraight's later novella which I also feel has some timeline issues surrounding the Primarch discovery list. However Chris's story does not say that Mortarion was not initially given command and then later temporarly removed for 'retraining' from the Emperor. Perhaps due to some extreme behaviour or other indescretion. This is how I like to square this little circle anyway and I think it would make an very interesting story.

 

That's the great thing about those Forge World books - once you realise who the mysterious "AK" is, everything contained in the background section is cast into doubt... And yes, that was deliberate from the start.

 

(Whoa, what was that? Did I just hear Warseer explode again?)

 

http://z13.invisionfree.com/The_First_Expedition/index.php?showtopic=202&st=2340

 

Well, fellas, loos like even the Forge World books might be entirely made up/intentional misinformation. In another stunning turn of events for the loose canon philosophy, those nice leather bound books on your shelves might be complete :cuss and we will never know what actually happened in the heresy.

 

Fun stuff.

[GhostMalone]

Books are still worth it, I think Laurie golding is just toying with us because really everything is misinformation half truths and perceived actions.

 

Ima stand by our books fluff and lore on this one and say that no matter what the case is I'm happy with what's written within those tomes as my personal truth

[Scribe]

I seem to think I hated something else Laurie posted. Not the first time, wont be the last. :]

 

That said, I have no issues with choosing what I believe to be canon. With so many authors now (many of which far below the ADB/French/Sanders level) I just shrug.

 

Do I think that outside those 3, anything in the HH books is far and away the top of what GW can produce? Yes.

 

Do I much care about the rest? Nope.

[Lord Blackwood]

This topic seems to be designed to be inflammatory   

[Scribe]

I was called to it, yes. :>

[Marshal Rohr]

This topic seems to be designed to be inflammatory

It's important information for conceptualizing and creating individual army backgrounds. For instance, if you want Albian Ironsider recruits in your Iron Warriors or Uropan nobles in your Iron Warriors. If the veracity of the FW books is in doubt, it expands options for fluff developers.

[depthcharge12]

I was called to it, yes. :>

Heh - and I thought I was the only one who didn't like him.

 

I still don't think it devalues these great tomes we carry around. It honestly sounds like Laurie is playing Goge Vandire and going coo coo for coco puffs :P

 

Alan Bligh's (and to a larger extent FW) work with the heresy is canon to this sub forum. There may be discrepancies, but usually it seems due to poor authorship/bookkeeping rather than actual flip flopping.

[Scribe]

Thats exactly how I see it. Am I going to take Laurie (still editor I assume?) and Black Library as my source of truth, or am I going to take Forge World?

 

Lol. Its not even up for debate to me.

[Arkangilos]

Also, FW fluff is *usually* better overall. My personal canon is GW/Forgeworld/ADB, then the other novels. 

 

If GW and FW contradict the novels, I always take FW over the novels. ADB is up there because I can't think of anything he's done that has contradicted or been contradicted.

 

On the other hand, while enjoyable reads (I really do enjoy reading them), I don't consider the Blood Angel stuff written by Swallow to be exact, completely accurate, canon. I don't mean to say that to him, but it's just so... contradictory. (His works that don't contradict any of the codices or anything are fabulous, though. Even the Blood Angel ones). So for his work, I usually take it as visions or prophecies (his 40k works are easier to do that with, considering they physically cannot happen within the current timeline, and if you add up the numbers happen after the turn of the millennium, for example). 

 

So even with FW saying that, I still consider their books more accurate for my personal fluff, personally.

[SkimaskMohawk]

 

This topic seems to be designed to be inflammatory

It's important information for conceptualizing and creating individual army backgrounds. For instance, if you want Albian Ironsider recruits in your Iron Warriors or Uropan nobles in your Iron Warriors. If the veracity of the FW books is in doubt, it expands options for fluff developers.

 

 

You mean if you want the models wearing power armour that have no personality other than how they're modeled and painted?

 

If you're talking about fanfiction, the great thing about fanfiction is that they don't have to follow cannon or can stray from it.

 

its not that important, and just shows that its hard to keep the facts accurate when you have a series going on for over 10 years with tons of different authors. Who would have guessed

[Kol Saresk]

This topic seems to be designed to be inflammatory

I concur. No one can read the Forgeworld books, the CodexesTM, the Realms of Chaos, and, yes, even the "hallowed" Index Astartes and see all of the "ifs", "buts", "we don't knows", "reports suggest", etc and believe they are written with an all-knowing point of view.

 

The FW Black Books in particular explicitly take the stance of being historical records pieced together from personal logs and after action reports.

 

And now we have a "conflict" in which we have already 200 year old, fragmented, historical record that is based off of other historical records saying one thing, and then the hearsay of a Primarch which could be based on any number of things, saying another.

 

But suddenly the historical record is absolutely false in all instances because of "he said, she said" in one instance?

 

That's where this post becomes inflammatory. Because it isn't taking time to consider how the entirety of the background has been presented. It also fails to take into account that person being quoted has and probably still is, swearing up and down that Crysus Mortug died on Istvaan III even though he has a personal log dated fifty years after the Heresy.

 

So what the background is intentionally written to be in conflict with itself? It was always been that way. And it gives us more room to maneuver than imaginable. So welcome to the grand world of Warhammer.

[b1soul]

It's not all BS...that is extreme

 

IMO, the FW books are clearly written from an in-universe perspective (I believe during the Scouring or early era of the Imperium). They are largely accurate but not entirely

[Forward Assist]

Who is 'AK' meant to be?

[DuskRaider]

Amandera Keeler, he's saying. I'll take the FW background I understand over BL any day, although there was some painfully obvious mustache twirling tropes in Book VI that I wasn't too pleased with, TBH.

[GhostMalone]

I think you an kendel the sister of silence

[DuskRaider]

Kendel, Keeler... whatever. FW themselves have refused to reveal the identity of the author, whichears is Goulding spoiled it he's just being obtuse. Although that's the most obvious choice, which means it may be a rouse.

[Marshal Rohr]

 

 

 

This topic seems to be designed to be inflammatory

It's important information for conceptualizing and creating individual army backgrounds. For instance, if you want Albian Ironsider recruits in your Iron Warriors or Uropan nobles in your Iron Warriors. If the veracity of the FW books is in doubt, it expands options for fluff developers.

You mean if you want the models wearing power armour that have no personality other than how they're modeled and painted?

 

If you're talking about fanfiction, the great thing about fanfiction is that they don't have to follow cannon or can stray from it.

 

its not that important, and just shows that its hard to keep the facts accurate when you have a series going on for over 10 years with tons of different authors. Who would have guessed

I think I'm missing your point. How would creating background mean the armies have no personality?

[Brother Aiwass]

Well, for me, I disregard everything from BL (with the sole exception of A D-B) and only FW and old GW non-retconed fluff is valid.

[Marshal Reinhard]

Not everyone will like everything written about X, especially if X concerns their favourite faction or whatnot, and this becomes more likely the more detailed it is. By putting in small subtle caveats or hint that "this might possibly be slightly wrong", you allow for people to modify it to slightly to suit them. You allow them to make space for their stuff if they wish to insert into something otherwise already thuroughly detailed. There's nothing really wrong with this. To have a super bible of every event with no possible deviations, is frankly unneccesary.

[Kol Saresk]

Not everyone will like everything written about X, especially if X concerns their favourite faction or whatnot, and this becomes more likely the more detailed it is. By putting in small subtle caveats or hint that "this might possibly be slightly wrong", you allow for people to modify it to slightly to suit them. You allow them to make space for their stuff if they wish to insert into something otherwise already thuroughly detailed. There's nothing really wrong with this. To have a super bible of every event with no possible deviations, is frankly unneccesary.

And I'm not even sure it is worth having since conflicts are going to rise up anyway. Heck, Star Wars just got a brand new, clean slate and it's already starting to run into conflicts all over again.

 

At least with the caveat of every conflict being the result of "personal bias" vs "historical bias", you can choose which one you run with.

[Spinsanity]

Simply considering every single piece of canon to be written from an in-universe PoV resolves every single dispute, always, so who cares? With a galaxy so vast, with warp-bound travel and warp-bound interplanetarey phone calls disrupting time flow, there is no way two different sources will record and/or interpret the same information in exactly the same way. Discrepancies like this ARE a plus, since they allow different players, with different viewpoints and expectations, to create different stories out of the same original point of inspiration, stories that will suit each of them differently.

 

Having too rigid a cannon could (would?) severely limit player creativity. So why do some players give more than 0 [censored]?

[Arkangilos]

Simply considering every single piece of canon to be written from an in-universe PoV resolves every single dispute, always, so who cares? With a galaxy so vast, with warp-bound travel and warp-bound interplanetarey phone calls disrupting time flow, there is no way two different sources will record and/or interpret the same information in exactly the same way. Discrepancies like this ARE a plus, since they allow different players, with different viewpoints and expectations, to create different stories out of the same original point of inspiration, stories that will suit each of them differently.

 

Having too rigid a cannon could (would?) severely limit player creativity. So why do some players give more than 0 [censored]?

Only it isn't. Take the Lion. Literally zero people knows he is alive. That is out of universe.

[Jareddm]

Only it isn't. Take the Lion. Literally zero people knows he is alive. That is out of universe.

Like clockwork...

[Spinsanity]

 

Simply considering every single piece of canon to be written from an in-universe PoV resolves every single dispute, always, so who cares? With a galaxy so vast, with warp-bound travel and warp-bound interplanetarey phone calls disrupting time flow, there is no way two different sources will record and/or interpret the same information in exactly the same way. Discrepancies like this ARE a plus, since they allow different players, with different viewpoints and expectations, to create different stories out of the same original point of inspiration, stories that will suit each of them differently.

 

Having too rigid a cannon could (would?) severely limit player creativity. So why do some players give more than 0 [censored]?

Only it isn't. Take the Lion. Literally zero people knows he is alive. That is out of universe.

 

Well, while technically not human*, the Watchers are aware of his existence... 

 

* Which once again raises the question why do the DAs tolerate the little blighters?

[depthcharge12]

 

 

 

Simply considering every single piece of canon to be written from an in-universe PoV resolves every single dispute, always, so who cares? With a galaxy so vast, with warp-bound travel and warp-bound interplanetarey phone calls disrupting time flow, there is no way two different sources will record and/or interpret the same information in exactly the same way. Discrepancies like this ARE a plus, since they allow different players, with different viewpoints and expectations, to create different stories out of the same original point of inspiration, stories that will suit each of them differently.

 

Having too rigid a cannon could (would?) severely limit player creativity. So why do some players give more than 0 [censored]?

Only it isn't. Take the Lion. Literally zero people knows he is alive. That is out of universe.

Well, while technically not human*, the Watchers are aware of his existence...

 

* Which once again raises the question why do the DAs tolerate the little blighters?

Because they're so damn cute and they're like portable coffee mug holders....except for your sword.