FW Veracity

[A D-B]

 

 

 

 

I genuinely don't understand this. Literally nothing - literally nothing - has changed.

I honestly think the main problems here are:

 

Laurie is implying the FW books are not 100% canon. (In fact, he is implying "everything" may be false ...)

Laurie is implying his novels (-> since he edited them, you know what i mean) are "more canon" or more accurate than FW books.

I'm not seeing the second implication.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, here, as I really do want to grasp this. Especially after having seen most of y'all in canon threads where we've all discussed this a hundred times before, regarding how the setting works.

 

So help me out. A couple of people thought the FW books were the One True Source (which was never true, never mentioned as true anywhere, never suggested to be true, would go against every other rule of the setting, and was blatantly not true given that they lack loads of information and are written by an in-universe character who keeps mentioning holes in the archives he/she is drawing from).

 

And now they've realised years later that those books are exactly like every novel, codex, and article (and of course they are, why wouldn't they be, and where has it ever said they weren't?) and... suddenly everything is bad and it's impossible to make armies or understand where the line is drawn?

 

Literally nothing has changed. At all. These same people could make armies when they just had codexes. I'm not trying to be wilfully ignorant, here. I just... What's going on?

No clue buddy, for me it's just how he wrote his comment - he should have said it smarter.

 

I'm fully aware that the FW books aren't more accurate than the novels written from in universe PoV's. Yet the novels had errors in it.

 

This was the question he got asked:

In the Forge World HH book 1, which describes the history of the Death Guard it states that Mortarian was given command of his legion immediately. I don't have the book to hand right now so I can't give a page quote. Now I know that this clashes with Chris Wraight's later novella which I also feel has some timeline issues surrounding the Primarch discovery list. However Chris's story does not say that Mortarion was not initially given command and then later temporarly removed for 'retraining' from the Emperor. Perhaps due to some extreme behaviour or other indescretion. This is how I like to square this little circle anyway and I think it would make an very interesting story.

and Lauries' answer:

That's the great thing about those Forge World books - once you realise who the mysterious "AK" is, everything contained in the background section is cast into doubt... And yes, that was deliberate from the start.

 

(Whoa, what was that? Did I just hear Warseer explode again?)

 

So, instead of adressing the issue (f.e., a simple "maybe AK didn't knew of this?"), he just said "If you realise who AK is, you will get he/she/it isn't an accurate narrator - or worse, his narrating may be deliberately false".

Atia nailed it. The idea that the FW books aren't loose canon, but intentional deception and it being out forward in such a flippant manner is disheartening.

 

 

Ahhhhhhhhhh.

 

'kay, I'm with you now, frater. Sorry, I wasn't trying to be obtuse. I thought you'd gone mad or something (or more likely, I was missing the point.)

[Scribe]

So really it's the suggestion that they are less that's the issue. Not on par with other sources.

[Marshal Rohr]

The idea that the veracity was intentionally engineered to be a big 'gotcha' moment for the online communities was the issue. If the AK version of the heresy isn't 100 percent true is fine, and as ADB said, just the way the cookie crumbles.

[Remus Ventanus.]

Imo the novels and FW books are meant to work together. Where one leaves information out, the other gives us that info. If the two have conflicting information, that was fine deliberately, and allows the reader to choose what to believe.

 

It would be sort if boring if everything was handed to us on a silver platter. It's nice, imo, to b able to think for ourselves, and ask what may and may not be true

[GhostMalone]

---

[Scribe]

I'm missing the reference kurama

[SkimaskMohawk]

Yea, never been a fan of how Golding interacts with the community. Maybe its just how I interpret it, but he always reads like he's extremely condescending and takes pleasure over talking down the online community 

[Spinsanity]

The problem is that there is a world of difference between saying, 'Alexis Polux was in command of the Retribution Fleet at Phall and you can read about it in Shadows of Treachery and Extermination but some parts may be untold or misremembered', and 'Extermination may never have happened'. What is the motivation to play with the Iron Hands under Autek Mor if he doesn't exist? How is that remotely fair to the people that drop tons of money on their army, only to be told 'well Mor didn't really exist'. I don't understand why saying that we are owed a little bit of foundational knowledge is making me 'just trying to be angry about something'.

I already got burned once with the Templars, it doesn't make me inflammatory or aggressive to be genuinely worried it will happen again.

While I can see your point, why should that matter? Why is it so important to you?

 

Some people have created whole alternate universes (think DH or BotL) and yet people still build armies out of it and enjoy their fluff.

Do you absolutely need the background you create for your army to be backed by 'cannon'? How about the fluff others create for theirs? Would you dismiss the creativity of people who create their own chapters, units and characters if their reading of the fluff differed from yours? As long as you're happy with the units and army you play, why do you care if the so-called 'official' cannon changes?

[1000 Sons]

Will we eventually find out who the mysterious AK is ?  I do think it was a bit of a jerk way to ruin the ending by telling us now, "Wait until you find out who AK is, it will be awesome !!'   Now we all know that there will be some kind of a twist at the end for our narrator.

 

Kind of like telling some one who is about to watch The Usual Suspects, "Just wait until you find out which of the group is Keyser Soze"

[Soldier of Dorn]

Yea, never been a fan of how Golding interacts with the community. Maybe its just how I interpret it, but he always reads like he's extremely condescending and takes pleasure over talking down the online community 

 

He certainly hates Warseer a lot.

 

http://i.imgur.com/zcbuYlI.jpg

 

 

The idea that the veracity was intentionally engineered to be a big 'gotcha' moment for the online communities was the issue. If the AK version of the heresy isn't 100 percent true is fine, and as ADB said, just the way the cookie crumbles.

 

Now I got ya. I think a lot of people misunderstood you when you originally posted. I have to agree, though. If the Black books are a complete falsity, as you say, that will piss me off.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

he wasnt exactly complimentary of the B&C in the same thread

 

 

 

Oh no, my mistake! It was Bolter & Chainsword...

http://i.imgur.com/u3lWw.gif

Everyone got popcorn? Excellent.

 

But if thats his normal manner of posting, I'll take A D-B. 

Far friendlier and less 'tude.

[Marshal Rohr]

 

Yea, never been a fan of how Golding interacts with the community. Maybe its just how I interpret it, but he always reads like he's extremely condescending and takes pleasure over talking down the online community

 

He certainly hates Warseer a lot.

 

http://i.imgur.com/zcbuYlI.jpg

 

 

The idea that the veracity was intentionally engineered to be a big 'gotcha' moment for the online communities was the issue. If the AK version of the heresy isn't 100 percent true is fine, and as ADB said, just the way the cookie crumbles.

 

Now I got ya. I think a lot of people misunderstood you when you originally posted. I have to agree, though. If the Black books are a complete falsity, as you say, that will piss me off.

I had never seen that fb post. That's.... Harsh.

 

 

You can't really consider us in the same category as warseer. Look at all the positive things we do for the community.

[KBA]

Laurie can say The Emperor killed Horus with a fart on the Internet for all I care. As always with my favorite paracosms -- and especially The Horus Heresy as it's text based; we don't have plot-cementing movies to hold our hand -- I will consume every tasty morsel of fluff, consider the period-piece context of this all, read inbetween the lines, form my own opinion, and (most importantly) have fun debating truths with my friends about it.

[Scribe]

Ha! I thought maybe I was wrong and there wasn't a reason to disregard all this guy says. That FB post proves I should.

[Soldier of Dorn]

 

I had never seen that fb post. That's.... Harsh.

 

 

You can't really consider us in the same category as warseer. Look at all the positive things we do for the community.

 

 

It's very harsh. I mean, I despise Warseer, but I don't think even they deserve that. I like to think that what separates us from forums like Warseer is that we try to be more tactful and fair than places like that, and so in that vein, I thought that Laurie's response to our thread should be quoted in full.

 

 

It's fine. If people want to take my quotes out of context and then get themselves all riled up, that's their business...

 

You can post on my behalf, if you like. Tell them that I love talking to GW fans, and anyone who wants to have an actual, reasonable, face-to-face chat about any aspect of the hobby is welcome to meet me in Bugman's for a coffee. Just drop me a tweet to arrange. http://i2.ifrm.com/html/emoticons/smile.gif

 

Also, tell them that AK refers to whichever person they most prefer from this list:

 

Andrew Kenrick, former WD editor and now an immortal warlord

Anna Kournikova, champion tennis player and hunter of daemons

Ashton Kutcher, professional punk and renegade inquisitor

Anna Kendrick, diminutive Hollywood starlet and certified heretic

[KBA]

Ha! I thought maybe I was wrong and there wasn't a reason to disregard all this guy says. That FB post proves I should.

I can imagine such public scrutiny, especially some of the cruel, ignorant stuff, can jade the most level headed individuals into making statements like that Facebook post. I'm not sure I can blame him for that.

[Scribe]

You have every opportunity to not click 'post'. It reeks of a lack of professionalism.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

 

Ha! I thought maybe I was wrong and there wasn't a reason to disregard all this guy says. That FB post proves I should.

I can imagine such public scrutiny, especially some of the cruel, ignorant stuff, can jade the most level headed individuals into making statements like that Facebook post. I'm not sure I can blame him for that.

 

 

I can.

 

That stuff comes with the job, any job, relating to public service or goods for purchase. 

 

When you exist in a niche industry, maybe insulting the fans isnt a good idea. 

[SkimaskMohawk]

That's an extremely unprofessional series of posts. There's no excuse for saying "it's better to die than accidentally post", if I said "it's better to die than to accidentally engage with X user on this forum" I'd be banned.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

That's an extremely unprofessional series of posts. There's no excuse for saying "it's better to die than accidentally post", if I said "it's better to die than to accidentally engage with X user on this forum" I'd be banned.

or at the very least, show the "Ignore" function

[Soldier of Dorn]

You have every opportunity to not click 'post'. It reeks of a lack of professionalism.

 

 

 

Ha! I thought maybe I was wrong and there wasn't a reason to disregard all this guy says. That FB post proves I should.

I can imagine such public scrutiny, especially some of the cruel, ignorant stuff, can jade the most level headed individuals into making statements like that Facebook post. I'm not sure I can blame him for that.

 

 

I can.

 

That stuff comes with the job, any job, relating to public service or goods for purchase. 

 

When you exist in a niche industry, maybe insulting the fans isnt a good idea. 

 

 

This. I can't express it well enough. If you are employed by a company, any company (including governments,) you have to acknowledge that any public action that you might take reflects back upon you and your employer.  There is a code of conduct, a certain amount of tact that one must adhere to, and I do not think that he has been sticking to these sort of things.

 

Besides, I can't imagine any situation which would justify a statement like that. If Mr. Goulding is watching this thread, as I suspect he might be, I would ask that he would please explain the context in which that statement was made, if it is not too much trouble.

[KBA]

That's an extremely unprofessional series of posts. There's no excuse for saying "it's better to die than accidentally post", if I said "it's better to die than to accidentally engage with X user on this forum" I'd be banned.

He posted that on his personal Facebook page (still unprofessional, yes), not a forum, so I'm not sure that comparison is completely fair. I can't seem to find anything but his Twitter account, so maybe a lesson was already learnt there. Anyone know the date and time of that Facebook post, just so we're not lynching a rotten horse corpse here?

 

We're dealing with quite a bit of unknown factors, for me at least, to crucify him for those comments eternally. Was his Facebook page public at the time? Did he edit or delete the post afterward? Was he censured in any way for it? All we are going off here is a jpeg clipping of something that happened on Facebook.

[Brother-Chaplain Kage]

Speaking of dead horses, it's time to shovel the dirt on top of this one. It was going in circles for a little while, but now it's just getting mean.

 

The in-universe history has always been patchy and suspect, and nothing new has surfaced to change that. Everything is as true or false as you wish it to be and I don't really understand how people can lose their minds over this sort of thing.

 

For example: I prefer to believe that Nemesis and Battle for the Abyss were tales told by a drunkard somewhere that a lowly scribe jotted down in the hopes of making some some quick currency in chapbook sales and they never really happened at all.

 

 

http://i.imgur.com/u9yQtVs.gif