Is it the Fallen that can be redeemed, or not?

[Kilofix]

Do the Dark Angels view the Fallen or the rest of the 'traitors' more harshly?

 

And, is it the Fallen who can be redeemed and the rest of the 'traitors' not, or is it the other way around somehow?

 

Because the DA Codex section on Interrogator Chaplains and the Pandorax novel suggests that it is the Fallen who can be redeemed but not the other 'traitors'.

But, the Deathwatch - Flesh of the Angel novel suggests the reverse.

 

Maybe I've confused myself.

 

Thanks for the clarification.

[dalleron]

A traitor no. They are dealt with as in Pandorax. Fallen supposedly had no choice, where as traitor turned their back on choice. Now that you mention it, I don't recall any fallen repenting. What would happen if they did? Has it happened before?

[Beachymike123]

A traitor no. They are dealt with as in Pandorax. Fallen supposedly had no choice, where as traitor turned their back on choice. Now that you mention it, I don't recall any fallen repenting. What would happen if they did? Has it happened before?

 

IIRC, if a Fallen repents, they are granted a swift death and are fully redeemed in the eyes of the 1st Legion. If they don't, they are tortured in more extreme ways. This is going on what I remember from 3rd edition mind, it might have (more than likely) changed a bit over the years. 

 

In the BL novel Eye of Terror, there is a Dark Angel who, during the Heresy, goes into suspended animation drifting through space who gets awoken by a Fallen and told a false version of event at the end of the Heresy. The awoken Angel nearly falls onto the Eightfold Path and has the Khorne icon drawn on his torso IIRC. But then the truth is revealed to him and at the end, he is handed over to the Dark Angels, where he repents in full and his name is absolved of all sins. Pretty good read if you can get a copy.

 Wrapped in spoilers in case anyone hasn't read Eye of Terror by Barrington Bailey (sp?).

[Grand Master Belial]

I know of two different contexts of redemption within the Dark Angels.

 

The first you mentioned is when a Fallen Dark Angel repents of his deeds and given a quick merciful death. This is when an Interrogator Chaplain attains a single black pearl. The feat is so rare that I think the record is with Molochai at 12.

 

The second actually relates to all of the Unforgiven. When ALL of the Fallen are captured, then the Dark Angels believe they will be Forgiven in the eyes of the Emperor and supposedly will renounce all of the dark, secret ways they have engaged in for 10 millenia.

 

There is no mention to my knowledge of redeeming other traitors. They are usually killed without any Interrogation or being asked to atone for their actions. The only exception is where chapters were swindled into fighting others (Badab Wars). They were then sent on a Penitent crusade to prove their loyalty to the Imperium.

 

I haven't read the Deathwatch book. I tend to be a little more skeptical of them for two reasons. The author may not be that familiar with the background and knowledge is fiercely guarded in-universe and people are ignorant to many of the facts to which we are aware. (Humans going through life never seeing a space marine, Imperial Guard being told to shoot the big ones when facing Tyranids, etc...)

[BlackTriton]

It is all the duty to all the unforgiven to chase and capture fallen angels and to make them repent. the traitor must be destroyed.

 

If i remember well it is said in Asmodai lore that even in his career he only saw a few fallen reppent. and he has the best score of all unforgiven interogator-chaplain. note that once they repent, they die. it is the soul that is saved, not the man.

[dalleron]

That is what I was thinking, but I wasn't 100% sure.

[aura_enchanted]

A traitor no. They are dealt with as in Pandorax. Fallen supposedly had no choice, where as traitor turned their back on choice. Now that you mention it, I don't recall any fallen repenting. What would happen if they did? Has it happened before?

plenty do, some even repent the second the dark angels bloody arrive. fallen are on varying levels loyal to luther, some were just scared of the reprecussions of not siding with him or followed their friends in the chapter or their squad. others were blinded by their adherance to the chain of command or just trusted lutehr that much. others were fanatically devoted to his plans and his grab for power and would live and die for him. so are inbetween not really sure of who to trust anymore now that they clearly lost the war on caliban. others are now fighting for themselves and looking out for themselves and want to try and carve their own path. some are genuinely sorry for their action and would not have left the lions side given the chance again. this is the nature of the fallen as diverse as leaves in fall.

 

i imagine those that repent without ever being interrogated are probably treated a lot nicer then those that resist even a little bit. but all fallen that do repent are given their place in the books of honour. its enitrely possible their bodies are then converted to servitors or are simply buried/cremated.

[dalleron]

What I meant by no choice was that when the fallen were scattered by the chaos gods across space and time.  What they did after that probably came down to survival and choice.  I was on an ipad or phone when I wrote that, and didn't feel like expanding on it.

[Kilofix]

Ok thanks.

 

It was this from Deathwatch - Ignition - Flesh of the Angel that confused me:

 

 

 

“No one could really understand what the Fallen were, save for a Dark Angel. They were not traitors, because traitors could be redeemed through sacrifice and made pure again in death. The Fallen could not be redeemed.”

 

Excerpt From: Braden Campbell, Mark Clapham, Ben Counter, Chris Dows, Peter Fehervari, Steve Lyons & Robbie MacNiven. “Deathwatch: Ignition.” iBooks.

 

 

[Lostrael]

Ok thanks.

 

It was this from Deathwatch - Ignition - Flesh of the Angel that confused me:

 

 

 

“No one could really understand what the Fallen were, save for a Dark Angel. They were not traitors, because traitors could be redeemed through sacrifice and made pure again in death. The Fallen could not be redeemed.”

 

Excerpt From: Braden Campbell, Mark Clapham, Ben Counter, Chris Dows, Peter Fehervari, Steve Lyons & Robbie MacNiven. “Deathwatch: Ignition.” iBooks.

 

 

To my impression the short story gives a very shallow look on Dark Angel lore. I read it, and put it aside... Somebody needed to write a short story about a Dark Angels in the Deathwatch. To many things do not fit.

[dalleron]

A Dark Angel in deathwatch would in all likelihood be excluded from joining the DW in the as he has allegiances to the Inquisition, similiar to the tech marines and their allegiance to the omni-messiah. And a DA marine presumably would have little knowledge of the fallen at this point. I think the DA would not allow a DW inducted marine to be seconded to the deathwatch.

[aura_enchanted]

A Dark Angel in deathwatch would in all likelihood be excluded from joining the DW in the as he has allegiances to the Inquisition, similiar to the tech marines and their allegiance to the omni-messiah. And a DA marine presumably would have little knowledge of the fallen at this point. I think the DA would not allow a DW inducted marine to be seconded to the deathwatch.

ah but how better to carry out the chapters work then by being as far from them as possible, and how better to ensure that a fallen never comes into the hands of the deathwatch. It's kinda of a funny little thing; where you'd think it would be safer to keep the deathwing or Ravens out of the mess but it would be invaluable not too.

[shandwen]

As dalleron said the DW wouldn't trust a marine to work separately with anyone- especially the Inquisition. A secondment such as that would probably spell that marines future as a company master or senior sergeant.

[jbaeza94]

I agree with aura, the deathwing wiki also says they are seconded occasionally, and are often tasked to do secondary missions. According to the article, they almost always field in tda. I honestly think a dw or rw would be great choice since they can progress the hunt and risk less exposure to the fallen

[Chmur]

I think the involvement of DW with Deathwatch is more of a catch 22 thing, however the logic would suggest that you need to send higher ranking Inner Circle member there, doesn't it? As well, those drafted for Deathwatch are usually company champions, so you would naturally expect them to be already initiated or having passed through DW. It would be the same as not allowing any "outside-trained/alleged" space marines into DW or IC - I mean Chaplains, Techmarines, Librarian and Apothecaries.

[shandwen]

In the most recent 40k book series they showed many of the companies senior positions to be filled by people who never asked the right questions to be initiated into DW or RW. The secondment could honestly go to either group: the honorable marines who never question thier duty or the initiated wing-ers.

[Brother Tyler]

Getting back to the topic at hand, the Unforgiven aren't trying to redeem the Fallen. The Fallen are beyond redemption. They only seek to capture and execute them (getting them to repent is worth bonus points).

 

It is the redemption of the Unforgiven that is the ultimate end-game, that only being possible once all of the Fallen have been captured and executed (whether or not they repent). And as we have discussed elsewhere, the Unforgiven aren't likely to ever achieve the redemption they seek.

[Kilofix]

If they aren't trying to redeem the Fallen then the only difference with the way the DA regard the Fallen vs the rest of Chaos is that the former have more direct knowledge of the DAs past and are therefore targeted to be killed by the DA with higher priority then?

[Cactus]

If they aren't trying to redeem the Fallen then the only difference with the way the DA regard the Fallen vs the rest of Chaos is that the former have more direct knowledge of the DAs past and are therefore targeted to be killed by the DA with higher priority then?

 

Yes. It's as much about the conspiracy to cover up what happened as it is about the Fallen themselves. The Dark Angels' tragedy is that they mostly don't see this, and the few that do also know that knowledge of the cover up would be far more damaging to the chapter and Imperium than Luther's actions, so they have to keep the secret. The Dark Angels could be redeemed if they would only let it go.