To fight cheese with cheese

[BlackTriton]

So, I will fight a eldar player for the first time this weekend, and he is known to be really cheesy and tryhard or so said the others.

 

So we discussed about how my Dark Angels would go to fight him (one guys even offered that I borrow models from his collection, he REALLY want to see him loose to a "sub-par" army. 

we discussed how to fight cheese with cheese and the SkyHammer formation came up. I had never even heard of it before, but for what i could found it could be devastating to his transport spam (I dont know a thing about xenos armys) 

 

aparently, this formation is not accessible to dark angels, but since the unit that compose it are the same than the ones from the SM codex it should not mater, right? 

 

Anyway question is : what do I take to complement this skyhammer, is the skyhammer any good against eldar and do anyone has another cheese for a 1500pt game vs eldar.

 

any and all feedback is apreciated.

[SnakeChisler]

Eldar struggle against the Ravenwing, they have a couple of ways of ignoring jink saves but these dont ignore cover so you still get your rerollable cover save if in/behind terrain

 

I used to take 3 min units of legion of the damned with triple melta to nuke wave serpents but black Knights backed with Darkshroud speeder formation should do it with 2+2+

 

They can take a seer council and get ignores cover using the divination table but it's not a gimme

[markham82]

If you do decide to go with the skyhammer formation, go maximum size on your assualt squads and kit them for anti tank (2x eviscerator plus melta bomb). Then combat squad each unit and kill four transports in turn 1 because his jink and cover save doesn't help him in the assualt phase.

[BlackTriton]

If you do decide to go with the skyhammer formation, go maximum size on your assualt squads and kit them for anti tank (2x eviscerator plus melta bomb). Then combat squad each unit and kill four transports in turn 1 because his jink and cover save doesn't help him in the assualt phase.

Good point, how about having a whirlwind to get rid of the infantry afterward? they should be in a nice blob after the transport exploded, plus they are cheap.

I think I will try that skyhammer with ravenwing. 

 

EDIT:

 

Can someone explain how the skyfall hammer interract with the DA in the rules? 

I understand it is codex:SM suplement, but since the unit are generic marine units can i run them with the DA codex or, to be rule compliant, do I need a copy of the SM codex?

How multiple unit with the same name, rules and stats can be from different army is still confusiong to me.

[frostbite]

Do you have any idea of what your opponent will be bringing? It would be useful to know so I can give some more tailored advice.

 

In general, the common scary eldar units are transports full of wraithguard, wraithknights and scatterbikers. If your opponent is renowned for being cheesy, expect any or all of these.

 

The next thing to say is that I don't know what you have in your collection, so some/all of my advice may not be applicable depending on whether you own the models or not.

 

With that out of the way, here's what I recommend:

Firstly, with the Skyhammer, I'd advise that you don't use them as Dark Angels and instead treat them as an allied formation of Ultramarines, so you can get access to the tactical doctrines. Next, give at least one unit of devastators 4 grav cannon and drop them next to the wraithknight. When they disembark, pop the devastator doctrine to twin-link them for the turn and delete that WK.

The other unit of devs I'd give multi-meltas and go transport hunting.

 

As for the two assault squads, I'm gonna have to disagree with markham82 for a couple of reasons. Firstly, equipping 4 men across the squads with eviscerators is hugely expensive. Secondly, the chances of landing all four combat squads within charge range of a transport is slim to none.

Instead, what I'd recommend is take them at minimum strength and give sarge a powerfist. This loadout gives them some flexibility in that they can still threaten vehicles with their krak grenades and sarge's fist while not costing the earth and they can, in a pinch, try to take the last couple of wounds off the WK should the devs fail to kill it. What you engage with the assault marines largely depends on your opponents composition, but you should prioritise scatterbikes and transports.

 

Don't expect the Skyhammer stuff to survive long at all. Its job is to drop in and kill as much as it can before dying in return.

 

As for the rest of the list, I'd go full Ravenwing, using the Ravenwing Strike Force. Now the Skyhammer is gonna use nearly half of your points up, so you're not going to get much else. I'd grab a biker libby with a conversion field and auspex as your HQ. Next I'd have two 3 man bike squads with 2 grav guns to fill out your compulsory slots and then a 3 man bike squad with 2 meltas and a melta bomb on the Sarge. Once you have these, I add in a 4 man Ravenwing Command Squad with a Champion and a Ravenwing Grenade launcher to accompnay the libby. The last thing I'd add would be a Ravenwing Support Squadron comprising a Darkshroud and three Speeders with Typhoon launchers and Heavy Bolters.

 

The final list would look something like this:

 

Skyhammer Annihilation Force (Ultramarines)

 

Devastator Squad with 4x grav cannon in a pod

 

Devastator Squad with 4x multi-melta in a pod

 

Assault Squad with power fist and jump packs

 

Assault Squad with power fist and jump packs

 

610pts

 

 

Ravenwing Strike Force (Dark Angels)

 

Librarian (Mastery 1) on bike with auspex, melta bombs and conversion field

 

Ravenwing Bike Squad with 2x grav gun

 

Ravenwing Bike Squad with 2x grav gun

 

Ravenwing Bike Squad with 2x melta and melta bombs

 

Ravenwing Command Squad with Champ and RW Grenade Launcher

 

585pts

 

Ravenwing Support Squadron

 

Darkshroud with Heavy Bolter

 

3x Landspeeder with Heavy Bolter and Typhoon Launcher

 

305pts

 

 

Total 1500pts

 

Tactically, I'd use the RWSS to pop open transports with their krak missiles, then use the bikers to harass the contents. The Command squad and Libby can do the same, or charge isolated units and beat them with hammers. A word of warning however, DO NOT charge Wraithguard with D-Scythes, as those are Strength D Flamers. The overwatch will end you. In general, try to stay at more than 18" or more away from them so they have a hard time getting you in range with their short ranged but very powerful guns.

 

If you do decide to go with the skyhammer formation, go maximum size on your assualt squads and kit them for anti tank (2x eviscerator plus melta bomb). Then combat squad each unit and kill four transports in turn 1 because his jink and cover save doesn't help him in the assualt phase.

Good point, how about having a whirlwind to get rid of the infantry afterward? they should be in a nice blob after the transport exploded, plus they are cheap.

I think I will try that skyhammer with ravenwing. 

 

EDIT:

 

Can someone explain how the skyfall hammer interract with the DA in the rules? 

I understand it is codex:SM suplement, but since the unit are generic marine units can i run them with the DA codex or, to be rule compliant, do I need a copy of the SM codex?

How multiple unit with the same name, rules and stats can be from different army is still confusiong to me.

 

 

Technically the Skyhammer is a C: SM only formation. There is no problem including it in your army, as you can just take it as an allied formation. The only issue is if you wanted to use the DA special rules with it, as it is not part of the DA faction, despite the component units being common to both Codexes.

[johnyocum]

Just FYI, if you look at the December 2015 errata on the GW site, https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/Errata/Warhammer_40000/Dark_Angels_EN.pdf shows us that Page 159 - Ravenwing Strike Force, Restrictions has been replaced with:

'All units in this Detachment must have the Ravenwing special rule (pg 148) or be a Dark Angels Character equipped with a Space Marine bike.'

[frostbite]

Just FYI, if you look at the December 2015 errata on the GW site, https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/Errata/Warhammer_40000/Dark_Angels_EN.pdf shows us that Page 159 - Ravenwing Strike Force, Restrictions has been replaced with:

 

'All units in this Detachment must have the Ravenwing special rule (pg 148) or be a Dark Angels Character equipped with a Space Marine bike.'

 

Ah, I didn't realise they'd done an errata/FAQ so recently. Thanks!

[Teetengee]

Also, the skyhammer can only be used with the vanilla dex. It isn't a DA/BA/SW formation.

[Harleqvin]

Eldar struggle against the Ravenwing, they have a couple of ways of ignoring jink saves but these dont ignore cover so you still get your rerollable cover save if in/behind terrain

 

I used to take 3 min units of legion of the damned with triple melta to nuke wave serpents but black Knights backed with Darkshroud speeder formation should do it with 2+2+

 

They can take a seer council and get ignores cover using the divination table but it's not a gimme

Ravenwing only reroll the cover save from jink. It literally says it in the codex.

Or are you getting a rerollable cover from something else?

 

 

 

 

and for the skyhammer formation. The units within the formation have to be from codex: space marine. DA couldn't be used in it. But you can have it just as another detachment within you army. So it would follow the rules for allies for how they interact.

[BlackTriton]

Also, the skyhammer can only be used with the vanilla dex. It isn't a DA/BA/SW formation.

 

 

and for the skyhammer formation. The units within the formation have to be from codex: space marine. DA couldn't be used in it. But you can have it just as another detachment within you army. So it would follow the rules for allies for how they interact.

 

EDIT: please take note that the following opinion piece was not meant to be discussed here, only to explain why as specific rule does not apply in my specific case. i still want to thank people who have clarified the rule for me.

 

"Ok, I see that the rules as written applies only on codex:SM.

But I like to play with the "make sense" rule that state it is ridiculous that every space marine chapter except DA BA and SW can use this formation. 

The make sense rule is back by GW attitude in that "they are not a games company, they're a model company selling collectibles", from which i take we are expected to use a degree of freedom in our interpretation of the rules. *EDIT: as long as it is clear for both party a prioris*

I am lucky enough to have a open minded group that share this approach to the rules, I understand that it is not shared by every one and I am not trying to force it on other, but I do suggest you try it and see where it takes you. moving on."

 

Since people have volunteered to share models for this game, I can bring anything I wish, short of a Titan. 

I will try this SkyHammer with frostbite ravenwing list, probably will cut a few upgrade to bring more guys, I like to have lots of bodies.

Thank for all the suggestion and precision. 

[SnakeChisler]

 

Eldar struggle against the Ravenwing, they have a couple of ways of ignoring jink saves but these dont ignore cover so you still get your rerollable cover save if in/behind terrain

I used to take 3 min units of legion of the damned with triple melta to nuke wave serpents but black Knights backed with Darkshroud speeder formation should do it with 2+2+

They can take a seer council and get ignores cover using the divination table but it's not a gimme

 

Ravenwing only reroll the cover save from jink. It literally says it in the codex.

Or are you getting a rerollable cover from something else?

and for the skyhammer formation. The units within the formation have to be from codex: space marine. DA couldn't be used in it. But you can have it just as another detachment within you army. So it would follow the rules for allies for how they interact.

I thought it was a a re-rollable jink as well till I read it thougherly and with some back reference to the Eldar codex where it looks like the idea / text come from.

 

Its deliberately worded as if you declare a jink you get a re-rollable cover save, a jink ignoring weapon ignores jink save not cover save

 

So what does ignore jink mean?

Any cover bonuses gained from jinking such as 4+ in the open & skilled rider.

 

It doesn't ignore area terrain saves or the Shroud bonus, and it certainly doesn't stop you from declaring a jink & taking your re-rollable cover save if you have one.

 

There's a plane formation in the Eldar codex with the same rule + They gave them an auto 4+ cover save

[Master Avoghai]

 

Also, the skyhammer can only be used with the vanilla dex. It isn't a DA/BA/SW formation.

 

 

and for the skyhammer formation. The units within the formation have to be from codex: space marine. DA couldn't be used in it. But you can have it just as another detachment within you army. So it would follow the rules for allies for how they interact.

 

EDIT: please take note that the following opinion piece was not meant to be discussed here, only to explain why as specific rule does not apply in my specific case. i still want to thank people who have clarified the rule for me.

 

"Ok, I see that the rules as written applies only on codex:SM.

But I like to play with the "make sense" rule that state it is ridiculous that every space marine chapter except DA BA and SW can use this formation. 

The make sense rule is back by GW attitude in that "they are not a games company, they're a model company selling collectibles", from which i take we are expected to use a degree of freedom in our interpretation of the rules. *EDIT: as long as it is clear for both party a prioris*

It does actually makes sense as much as having different chapters with different modus operandi and way to fight.

 

The DA use the RW and the DW strike forces that other chapters doesn't use

The SW doesn't follow the codex organization and therefore use other tactics

Hence it makes totally sense that they could not have access to this formation as it's not their way to fight...

 

I am lucky enough to have a open minded group that share this approach to the rules, I understand that it is not shared by every one and I am not trying to force it on other, but I do suggest you try it and see where it takes you. moving on."

 

Since people have volunteered to share models for this game, I can bring anything I wish, short of a Titan. 

I will try this SkyHammer with frostbite ravenwing list, probably will cut a few upgrade to bring more guys, I like to have lots of bodies.

Thank for all the suggestion and precision.

 

Hence if I may give an advice for future topics : give this kind of unhabitual information in your original post. B&C is a wide community composed of various players from various location.

By default, we anwer to such a question using the rules without any local cos ensus as there could be as many loval consensus as game locations.

Moreover you have the cultural difference implied too, B&C is international.

 

For example when I read :

 

we discussed about how my Dark Angels would go to fight him (one guys even offered that I borrow models from his collection, he REALLY want to see him loose to a "sub-par" army.

I tend to think that you follow strictly the rules and want to play by the rules without tweaking them. Why?

 

Because you talk of a sub-par army. If it is sub-par, it's because the rules doesn't make them powerful. If you start giving rules they don't have (like access to the skyhammer formation), then they are not sub-par anymore.

And also because you say that your opponent is cheesy and you want to challenge him.

 

But is he cheesy because he includes "local make sense rules" or because he play well "by the rules"? And in the latter case, what would be the point of the challenge if you tweak the rules for your advantage? By using "make sense rules" you'll have a "no sense result".

 

 

Personnly I think you should go on a pure RW list. You''ll respect the rules of this "sub-par" codex ;) and you''ll play with the same advantages as him (speed). I suggest a list built around RW black knights and RWSS. And beware of the BS5 warp spiders.

[SnakeChisler]

I agree using Ravenwing rather than a gimmick formation would be the better course

 

Why do I think its a gimmick? The power in the formation isn't in the 1st turn assault its in the continuous pinning tests from the Devastator units in it.

It doesn't work on a whole range of units scat bikes in particular coz you can't pin bikes, it doesn't work on Wraith constructs coz their fearless.

It doesn't have no scatter on Deep Strike & it doesn't have hit & run and its expensive points wise

 

If you want to cheese it up take the Librarius conclave from SM put them on bikes then make them either Iron Hands (+1 FNP) or White Scars (Hunters Eye Relic for ignores cover)

[frostbite]

I agree using Ravenwing rather than a gimmick formation would be the better course

 

Why do I think its a gimmick? The power in the formation isn't in the 1st turn assault its in the continuous pinning tests from the Devastator units in it.

It doesn't work on a whole range of units scat bikes in particular coz you can't pin bikes, it doesn't work on Wraith constructs coz their fearless.

It doesn't have no scatter on Deep Strike & it doesn't have hit & run and its expensive points wise

 

If you want to cheese it up take the Librarius conclave from SM put them on bikes then make them either Iron Hands (+1 FNP) or White Scars (Hunters Eye Relic for ignores cover)

 

The power of the Skyhammer lies in its ability to drop those devastators danger close to priority targets and give them relentless. The forced pinning checks are nice, but not to be relied on. You shouldn't be trying to pin those Wraith constructs, you should be trying to kill them. The appeal of the Skyhammer, in my mind at least, is that it gives marines a hard counter to horrible stuff like Riptides and Wraithknights. I'm assuming that BlackTriton's opponent is going to bring a Wraithknight. If he's not, then the Skyhammer might not be the best use of points.

[BlackTriton]

 

It does actually makes sense as much as having different chapters with different modus operandi and way to fight.

 

The DA use the RW and the DW strike forces that other chapters doesn't use

The SW doesn't follow the codex organization and therefore use other tactics

Hence it makes totally sense that they could not have access to this formation as it's not their way to fight...

 

I am lucky enough to have a open minded group that share this approach to the rules, I understand that it is not shared by every one and I am not trying to force it on other, but I do suggest you try it and see where it takes you. moving on."

 

Since people have volunteered to share models for this game, I can bring anything I wish, short of a Titan. 

I will try this SkyHammer with frostbite ravenwing list, probably will cut a few upgrade to bring more guys, I like to have lots of bodies.

Thank for all the suggestion and precision.

Hence if I may give an advice for future topics : give this kind of unhabitual information in your original post. B&C is a wide community composed of various players from various location.

By default, we anwer to such a question using the rules without any local cos ensus as there could be as many loval consensus as game locations.

Moreover you have the cultural difference implied too, B&C is international.

 

You are right, and we mostly play with strict rules, with a occasional divergence that is agreed before the game begins. 

I am new enough to the hobby to sometimes realise that what I consider the norm may not be so. 

 

as far as house rules go, we really dont use them a lot. If someone want to bring something, he will not see resistance should he provide justification for it. it makes good game but may not befit a challenge. I Will make the Skyhammer from the SM codex and respect the rule to the letters in this case. 

 

I have been kept in the dark as for what he will bring, only know it will be "his usual BS". Understand the guy has the "cocky outsider" reputation.

 

Also, I will look up the army list page to find a ravenwing list as a second option, should he not bring Wraithknight or complain about me taking allies.

 

I will let you know how it went., thanks again.

[Cactus]

If you're willing to go outside the Dark Angels faction I think you should get some onager dunestriders with icarus arrays. 125 points for three S7 and five S6 shots with skyfire and 48" range should pop skimmers better than some oversized chainswords and a melta bomb. You can have up to four in a skitarii maniple detachment and the two compulsory vanguard squads' radcarbines are one of the best weapons available for killing eldar infantry. They can be BS7 for a turn too.

This is why you can't trust techmarines. I'm starting to go native in the Adeptus Mechanicus.

[twopounder]

Well, your first problem is the amount of powerfists you're taking. They rely on getting into close combat and surviving against an army that either gets a ton of attacks or ignores your armor. You're better off with power mauls if you want close combat weapons on your sergeants.

 

The thing is, if you're planning on bum rushing into close combat, you're going to lose against Eldar. The best things to take against them are dreadnought squadrons. It renders their pseudo-rending useless, lances become over priced missile launchers and pulse lasers are only moderately effective against them. With an insane amount of attacks and bs 2, 3, or 4 overwatch, they are living wrecking balls that chew through the army. very quickly.

 

A librarius conclave of level 2 psykers can also annoy the crap out of them.

[frostbite]

Well, your first problem is the amount of powerfists you're taking. They rely on getting into close combat and surviving against an army that either gets a ton of attacks or ignores your armor. You're better off with power mauls if you want close combat weapons on your sergeants.

 

The thing is, if you're planning on bum rushing into close combat, you're going to lose against Eldar. The best things to take against them are dreadnought squadrons. It renders their pseudo-rending useless, lances become over priced missile launchers and pulse lasers are only moderately effective against them. With an insane amount of attacks and bs 2, 3, or 4 overwatch, they are living wrecking balls that chew through the army. very quickly.

 

A librarius conclave of level 2 psykers can also annoy the crap out of them.

Assuming you're talking about the list I suggested, the powerfists are only there for helping to crack waveserpents open. Jumping Eldar infantry squads with those Assault Marines is not their intended purpose. You kill the Eldar's rides and make them walk, so your bikers and landspeeders can deal with them.

Issue with Dreads is that they get flattened by the amount of D the Eldar can have. Or glanced to death by the scatterbikes. The eldar, for their part shouldn't be charging them, unless it's with a Wraithknight. Instead they'll get their Wraithguard or Fire Dragons to 12" and shoot them dead with all that D/Melta

[Leif Bearclaw]

 

 

The thing is, if you're planning on bum rushing into close combat, you're going to lose against Eldar. The best things to take against them are dreadnought squadrons. It renders their pseudo-rending useless, lances become over priced missile launchers and pulse lasers are only moderately effective against them. With an insane amount of attacks and bs 2, 3, or 4 overwatch, they are living wrecking balls that chew through the army. very quickly.

 

Not only is this terrible advice, it's also contains wrong information. Taking Dreadnoughts vs the Kings of D? That's crazy for precisely the reasons frostbite laid out. Shuriken weaponry is not what makes Eldar the scariest faction in the game, that's their array of D, accurate high S shooting spam and the undercosted GC Wraithknight. All of which can and (with varying degrees of success granted, as S6 needs 6s to hurt AV12) will mess up Dreads without serious trouble. However, what you are incorrect about is the bright lance. Thanks to its AP2 it's still better than a missile launcher, even vs AV 12 and lower, as it can cause explode results, unlike the AP3 Krak missile.

[twopounder]

 

Well, your first problem is the amount of powerfists you're taking. They rely on getting into close combat and surviving against an army that either gets a ton of attacks or ignores your armor. You're better off with power mauls if you want close combat weapons on your sergeants.

 

The thing is, if you're planning on bum rushing into close combat, you're going to lose against Eldar. The best things to take against them are dreadnought squadrons. It renders their pseudo-rending useless, lances become over priced missile launchers and pulse lasers are only moderately effective against them. With an insane amount of attacks and bs 2, 3, or 4 overwatch, they are living wrecking balls that chew through the army. very quickly.

 

A librarius conclave of level 2 psykers can also annoy the crap out of them.

Assuming you're talking about the list I suggested, the powerfists are only there for helping to crack waveserpents open. Jumping Eldar infantry squads with those Assault Marines is not their intended purpose. You kill the Eldar's rides and make them walk, so your bikers and landspeeders can deal with them.

Issue with Dreads is that they get flattened by the amount of D the Eldar can have. Or glanced to death by the scatterbikes. The eldar, for their part shouldn't be charging them, unless it's with a Wraithknight. Instead they'll get their Wraithguard or Fire Dragons to 12" and shoot them dead with all that D/Melta

 

 

Does the Eldar player use all of this? Last Eldar cheeselist I saw had no D weapons and no bikes. Given that there was no list for the Eldar player submitted, you can't speculate that they will have overwhelming D or bikes. Assuming they did, the range on those is short, allowing long range weapons to engage them. If memory serves, you can also take a DWSF with venerable dreads dropping all over the place on turn 2.

 

 

 

 

The thing is, if you're planning on bum rushing into close combat, you're going to lose against Eldar. The best things to take against them are dreadnought squadrons. It renders their pseudo-rending useless, lances become over priced missile launchers and pulse lasers are only moderately effective against them. With an insane amount of attacks and bs 2, 3, or 4 overwatch, they are living wrecking balls that chew through the army. very quickly.

 

Not only is this terrible advice, it's also contains wrong information. Taking Dreadnoughts vs the Kings of D? That's crazy for precisely the reasons frostbite laid out. Shuriken weaponry is not what makes Eldar the scariest faction in the game, that's their array of D, accurate high S shooting spam and the undercosted GC Wraithknight. All of which can and (with varying degrees of success granted, as S6 needs 6s to hurt AV12) will mess up Dreads without serious trouble. However, what you are incorrect about is the bright lance. Thanks to its AP2 it's still better than a missile launcher, even vs AV 12 and lower, as it can cause explode results, unlike the AP3 Krak missile.

 

 

The bright lance can only get +1 to its roll if it gets to roll. It has the same chance as a missile launcher to penetrate a dreadnought. While it does get a buff, you're not getting its points value against the dreadnought the same way you are against heavy tanks. At this point, pulse lasers are far more effective than a lance and a unit of fire dragons in a grav-tank is more effective than the grav-tank with a bright lance.

 

And, for all you know, the cheese list is a seer council with reapers, warp spiders and prism cannons.

 

Power lists are relative to the group they typically fight against, so using a blanket assumption of 3 wraithknights and 30 bikes with scatter lasers is counter productive.

 

The only assumptions I would make is no banshees or scorpions, since those aspects are pretty garbage now compared to everything else and I haven't seen them since power weapons became AP3.

[Leif Bearclaw]

Dude, what you think is Eldar cheese really, really isn't. Wraith constructs and scatterbikes are quite simply the most efficient and powerful choices in the book, therefore they're to the 'go to' top tier cheese. So, lacking any other information, it makes sense to advise to counter the strongest force the Eldar can throw down. As what counters the stinkiest cheese will tend to work against milder types as well.

 

Seer Council, Reapers, Spiders and Fire Prisms? That isn't a cheese list. I would love to play against a list like that, cos that Eldar player isn't bringing his A game (quite frankly, that game sounds more fun, but that's not the point.). Granted, I still may well lose, because most of the Eldar book is pretty damn good, but it'll be a far closer, more engaging game than going up against the bikes and constructs.

 

 

 

The bright lance can only get +1 to its roll if it gets to roll. It has the same chance as a missile launcher to penetrate a dreadnought. While it does get a buff, you're not getting its points value against the dreadnought the same way you are against heavy tanks. At this point, pulse lasers are far more effective than a lance and a unit of fire dragons in a grav-tank is more effective than the grav-tank with a bright lance.

 

So? It's still better than a missile launcher.Especially when regarding Eldar, as they pay through the nose for their MLs thanks to plasma missiles being better than frag, so the points difference isn't in the same league as Imperial weapons.

 

Units of Fire Dragons delivered up close are more effective than any Eldar vehicle at AT work, regardless of armament. ML, bright lance, pulse laser, prism cannon, all pale in comparison to the volume of melta those boys chuck out.

[frostbite]

 

 

Well, your first problem is the amount of powerfists you're taking. They rely on getting into close combat and surviving against an army that either gets a ton of attacks or ignores your armor. You're better off with power mauls if you want close combat weapons on your sergeants.

 

The thing is, if you're planning on bum rushing into close combat, you're going to lose against Eldar. The best things to take against them are dreadnought squadrons. It renders their pseudo-rending useless, lances become over priced missile launchers and pulse lasers are only moderately effective against them. With an insane amount of attacks and bs 2, 3, or 4 overwatch, they are living wrecking balls that chew through the army. very quickly.

 

A librarius conclave of level 2 psykers can also annoy the crap out of them.

Assuming you're talking about the list I suggested, the powerfists are only there for helping to crack waveserpents open. Jumping Eldar infantry squads with those Assault Marines is not their intended purpose. You kill the Eldar's rides and make them walk, so your bikers and landspeeders can deal with them.

Issue with Dreads is that they get flattened by the amount of D the Eldar can have. Or glanced to death by the scatterbikes. The eldar, for their part shouldn't be charging them, unless it's with a Wraithknight. Instead they'll get their Wraithguard or Fire Dragons to 12" and shoot them dead with all that D/Melta

 

 

Does the Eldar player use all of this? Last Eldar cheeselist I saw had no D weapons and no bikes. Given that there was no list for the Eldar player submitted, you can't speculate that they will have overwhelming D or bikes. Assuming they did, the range on those is short, allowing long range weapons to engage them. If memory serves, you can also take a DWSF with venerable dreads dropping all over the place on turn 2.

 

 

 

 

The thing is, if you're planning on bum rushing into close combat, you're going to lose against Eldar. The best things to take against them are dreadnought squadrons. It renders their pseudo-rending useless, lances become over priced missile launchers and pulse lasers are only moderately effective against them. With an insane amount of attacks and bs 2, 3, or 4 overwatch, they are living wrecking balls that chew through the army. very quickly.

 

Not only is this terrible advice, it's also contains wrong information. Taking Dreadnoughts vs the Kings of D? That's crazy for precisely the reasons frostbite laid out. Shuriken weaponry is not what makes Eldar the scariest faction in the game, that's their array of D, accurate high S shooting spam and the undercosted GC Wraithknight. All of which can and (with varying degrees of success granted, as S6 needs 6s to hurt AV12) will mess up Dreads without serious trouble. However, what you are incorrect about is the bright lance. Thanks to its AP2 it's still better than a missile launcher, even vs AV 12 and lower, as it can cause explode results, unlike the AP3 Krak missile.

 

 

The bright lance can only get +1 to its roll if it gets to roll. It has the same chance as a missile launcher to penetrate a dreadnought. While it does get a buff, you're not getting its points value against the dreadnought the same way you are against heavy tanks. At this point, pulse lasers are far more effective than a lance and a unit of fire dragons in a grav-tank is more effective than the grav-tank with a bright lance.

 

And, for all you know, the cheese list is a seer council with reapers, warp spiders and prism cannons.

 

Power lists are relative to the group they typically fight against, so using a blanket assumption of 3 wraithknights and 30 bikes with scatter lasers is counter productive.

 

The only assumptions I would make is no banshees or scorpions, since those aspects are pretty garbage now compared to everything else and I haven't seen them since power weapons became AP3.

 

 

I think we have wildly different opinions on what constitutes 'cheese' in the Eldar book.

 

Granted, I didn't know what the Eldar player would bring when I submitted that list suggestion. And I still don't. Neither do you.

 

Like Leif said, Wraithguard in Serpents, Scatterbike and Wraithknights are the go to Eldar cheese. If you prepare for those, you'll probably find yourself in a good position to deal with anything else they might bring. The list I proposed would work just as well against seer councils, reapers and fire prisms (incidentally, if that's what he does bring, you use the devs to kill the tanks, the assault marines engage the reapers and the bikes and speeders kill the seer council.)

 

If you load for bear and only find squirrels, you're gonna be just fine.

 

 

Given that there was no list for the Eldar player submitted, you can't speculate that they will have overwhelming D or bikes. Assuming they did, the range on those is short, allowing long range weapons to engage them. If memory serves, you can also take a DWSF with venerable dreads dropping all over the place on turn 2.

 

This is a self-contradictory statement. You discount D weapons for their short range and then immediately suggest deep striking terminators and dreads. The dreadnoughts will drop in and get whacked by the D. Same for the Termies. Also, I would hardly classify scatterbikes as 'short ranged'.

[Teetengee]

Important to note: the other cheese list: warp spiders that basically can't be assaulted.

[twopounder]

 

 

 

Well, your first problem is the amount of powerfists you're taking. They rely on getting into close combat and surviving against an army that either gets a ton of attacks or ignores your armor. You're better off with power mauls if you want close combat weapons on your sergeants.

 

The thing is, if you're planning on bum rushing into close combat, you're going to lose against Eldar. The best things to take against them are dreadnought squadrons. It renders their pseudo-rending useless, lances become over priced missile launchers and pulse lasers are only moderately effective against them. With an insane amount of attacks and bs 2, 3, or 4 overwatch, they are living wrecking balls that chew through the army. very quickly.

 

A librarius conclave of level 2 psykers can also annoy the crap out of them.

Assuming you're talking about the list I suggested, the powerfists are only there for helping to crack waveserpents open. Jumping Eldar infantry squads with those Assault Marines is not their intended purpose. You kill the Eldar's rides and make them walk, so your bikers and landspeeders can deal with them.

Issue with Dreads is that they get flattened by the amount of D the Eldar can have. Or glanced to death by the scatterbikes. The eldar, for their part shouldn't be charging them, unless it's with a Wraithknight. Instead they'll get their Wraithguard or Fire Dragons to 12" and shoot them dead with all that D/Melta

 

 

Does the Eldar player use all of this? Last Eldar cheeselist I saw had no D weapons and no bikes. Given that there was no list for the Eldar player submitted, you can't speculate that they will have overwhelming D or bikes. Assuming they did, the range on those is short, allowing long range weapons to engage them. If memory serves, you can also take a DWSF with venerable dreads dropping all over the place on turn 2.

 

 

 

 

The thing is, if you're planning on bum rushing into close combat, you're going to lose against Eldar. The best things to take against them are dreadnought squadrons. It renders their pseudo-rending useless, lances become over priced missile launchers and pulse lasers are only moderately effective against them. With an insane amount of attacks and bs 2, 3, or 4 overwatch, they are living wrecking balls that chew through the army. very quickly.

 

Not only is this terrible advice, it's also contains wrong information. Taking Dreadnoughts vs the Kings of D? That's crazy for precisely the reasons frostbite laid out. Shuriken weaponry is not what makes Eldar the scariest faction in the game, that's their array of D, accurate high S shooting spam and the undercosted GC Wraithknight. All of which can and (with varying degrees of success granted, as S6 needs 6s to hurt AV12) will mess up Dreads without serious trouble. However, what you are incorrect about is the bright lance. Thanks to its AP2 it's still better than a missile launcher, even vs AV 12 and lower, as it can cause explode results, unlike the AP3 Krak missile.

 

 

The bright lance can only get +1 to its roll if it gets to roll. It has the same chance as a missile launcher to penetrate a dreadnought. While it does get a buff, you're not getting its points value against the dreadnought the same way you are against heavy tanks. At this point, pulse lasers are far more effective than a lance and a unit of fire dragons in a grav-tank is more effective than the grav-tank with a bright lance.

 

And, for all you know, the cheese list is a seer council with reapers, warp spiders and prism cannons.

 

Power lists are relative to the group they typically fight against, so using a blanket assumption of 3 wraithknights and 30 bikes with scatter lasers is counter productive.

 

The only assumptions I would make is no banshees or scorpions, since those aspects are pretty garbage now compared to everything else and I haven't seen them since power weapons became AP3.

 

 

I think we have wildly different opinions on what constitutes 'cheese' in the Eldar book.

 

Granted, I didn't know what the Eldar player would bring when I submitted that list suggestion. And I still don't. Neither do you.

 

Like Leif said, Wraithguard in Serpents, Scatterbike and Wraithknights are the go to Eldar cheese. If you prepare for those, you'll probably find yourself in a good position to deal with anything else they might bring. The list I proposed would work just as well against seer councils, reapers and fire prisms (incidentally, if that's what he does bring, you use the devs to kill the tanks, the assault marines engage the reapers and the bikes and speeders kill the seer council.)

 

If you load for bear and only find squirrels, you're gonna be just fine.

 

 

Given that there was no list for the Eldar player submitted, you can't speculate that they will have overwhelming D or bikes. Assuming they did, the range on those is short, allowing long range weapons to engage them. If memory serves, you can also take a DWSF with venerable dreads dropping all over the place on turn 2.

 

This is a self-contradictory statement. You discount D weapons for their short range and then immediately suggest deep striking terminators and dreads. The dreadnoughts will drop in and get whacked by the D. Same for the Termies. Also, I would hardly classify scatterbikes as 'short ranged'.

 

 

Apparently you've never hunted squirrels with rifles meant for bear, as it's not at all suitable (both costly and heavy when far superior methods exist). The same goes for 40k. Good luck fighting the green tide with your "bear hunting" anti-gargantuan army. Or even a balanced Eldar army that has a large number of fast moving, low cost units with high fire power (vyper squadrons, wraith fighters, etc).

 

Also, that's not a contradictory statement. It shouldn't be that hard to figure out that you drop a twin-heavy flamer dreadnought on top of the bikes not the wraithknights. Furthermore- this is contradictory:

 

 

 

So we discussed about how my Dark Angels would go to fight him (one guys even offered that I borrow models from his collection, he REALLY want to see him loose [sic] to a "sub-par" army. 

we discussed how to fight cheese with cheese and the SkyHammer formation came up.

 

 

And if you want a cheese setup, why aren't you suggesting 30 sternguard with comb-grav in drop pods and 3 venerable dreadnoughts with twin heavy flamers in drop pods as part of a DWSF. Drop pod assault allows you to dump all three sternguard on the first turn, each one able to knock out a wraithknight by itself. Then drop the dreadnoughts on top of the bikes and torch them on the second turn. Drop Pod Assault doesn't require drop pods be from the same detachment, just that you have a pool of drop pods in deep strike reserve.

 

If the eldar player doesn't have wraithknights (or only has one) grav-guns will still take out wraithlords, wraithguard, bikes, and vehicles (you just need one 6 to crash as skimmer) while the special rounds will kill anything else. When backed up by ravenwing bikes, they can't out run anything either.

[frostbite]

 

Apparently you've never hunted squirrels with rifles meant for bear, as it's not at all suitable (both costly and heavy when far superior methods exist). The same goes for 40k. Good luck fighting the green tide with your "bear hunting" anti-gargantuan army. Or even a balanced Eldar army that has a large number of fast moving, low cost units with high fire power (vyper squadrons, wraith fighters, etc).

 

Also, that's not a contradictory statement. It shouldn't be that hard to figure out that you drop a twin-heavy flamer dreadnought on top of the bikes not the wraithknights. Furthermore- this is contradictory:

 

 

 

So we discussed about how my Dark Angels would go to fight him (one guys even offered that I borrow models from his collection, he REALLY want to see him loose [sic] to a "sub-par" army. 

we discussed how to fight cheese with cheese and the SkyHammer formation came up.

 

 

And if you want a cheese setup, why aren't you suggesting 30 sternguard with comb-grav in drop pods and 3 venerable dreadnoughts with twin heavy flamers in drop pods as part of a DWSF. Drop pod assault allows you to dump all three sternguard on the first turn, each one able to knock out a wraithknight by itself. Then drop the dreadnoughts on top of the bikes and torch them on the second turn. Drop Pod Assault doesn't require drop pods be from the same detachment, just that you have a pool of drop pods in deep strike reserve.

 

If the eldar player doesn't have wraithknights (or only has one) grav-guns will still take out wraithlords, wraithguard, bikes, and vehicles (you just need one 6 to crash as skimmer) while the special rounds will kill anything else. When backed up by ravenwing bikes, they can't out run anything either.

 

 

 

Apparently you've never hunted squirrels with rifles meant for bear, as it's not at all suitable (both costly and heavy when far superior methods exist).

 

No, you're right I haven't. But that was meant as a pithy, somewhat humorous analogy to sum up the argument I made, not an in-depth statement based on my knowledge and experience of hunting. Clearly I was wide of the mark.

 

 

Good luck fighting the green tide with your "bear hunting" anti-gargantuan army. Or even a balanced Eldar army that has a large number of fast moving, low cost units with high fire power (vyper squadrons, wraith fighters, etc).

We're discussing how to fight a cheesy Eldar list, so how my proposed list would fare against the green tide is utterly irrelevant. As for how is would perform against a more balanced Eldar list, I believe I already covered it in my last post. It comes down to target priority. Skyhammer Devastators will still wreck Vypers quite handily thanks to them only having two HP each. I'll grant that aircraft are a tough proposition for the DA's, as our AA capabilities are somewhat lacking. But there isn't much you can do about that whatever you put in a list.

 

 

Also, that's not a contradictory statement. It shouldn't be that hard to figure out that you drop a twin-heavy flamer dreadnought on top of the bikes not the wraithknights.

 

Deep striking in general is a bad idea against Eldar unless your alpha strike is really strong and/or you don't expect/need those units to survive. While I never assumed you'd drop Dreads next to WKs, a nasty Eldar list will be dripping in D-Scythes and Wraithcannon and maybe some Fire Dragons. All of those things will by really happy to see your expensive Dreads and termies dropping in only a short walk away.

 

 

Furthermore- this is contradictory:

 

 

Quote

 

So we discussed about how my Dark Angels would go to fight him (one guys even offered that I borrow models from his collection, he REALLY want to see him loose [sic] to a "sub-par" army. 

we discussed how to fight cheese with cheese and the SkyHammer formation came up.

 

Not my statement dude.

 

 

And if you want a cheese setup, why aren't you suggesting 30 sternguard with comb-grav in drop pods and 3 venerable dreadnoughts with twin heavy flamers in drop pods as part of a DWSF. Drop pod assault allows you to dump all three sternguard on the first turn, each one able to knock out a wraithknight by itself. Then drop the dreadnoughts on top of the bikes and torch them on the second turn. Drop Pod Assault doesn't require drop pods be from the same detachment, just that you have a pool of drop pods in deep strike reserve.

 

If the eldar player doesn't have wraithknights (or only has one) grav-guns will still take out wraithlords, wraithguard, bikes, and vehicles (you just need one 6 to crash as skimmer) while the special rounds will kill anything else. When backed up by ravenwing bikes, they can't out run anything either.

 

OP's request was a Dark Angel army that incorporated the Skyhammer and was designed to beat a cheesy Eldar list. I'm not suggesting 30 Sternguard in pods and a DWSF for a few reasons. Firstly, it doesn't have the Skyhammer that the OP specifically requested. Secondly, I don't think the DWSF is a good way to go against Eldar. The third and most important reason is that what you suggest doesn't fit into the 1500 point limit set by the OP. A DWSF of three twin HF dreads in pods, a mastery 1 libby in TDA and 30 sternguard in pods with no combi-weapons comes to 1400 odd points. Not sure how you propose to squeeze combi-weapons and some Ravenwing in to less than 100pts.