Teetengee Posted March 10, 2016 Share Posted March 10, 2016 Op didn't specifically request skyhammer, just mention it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frostbite Posted March 10, 2016 Share Posted March 10, 2016 Op didn't specifically request skyhammer, just mention it. Fair enough, he just asked what would complement it. My other points about Twopounder's comments still apply. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leif Bearclaw Posted March 10, 2016 Share Posted March 10, 2016 And if you want a cheese setup, why aren't you suggesting 30 sternguard with comb-grav in drop pods and 3 venerable dreadnoughts with twin heavy flamers in drop pods as part of a DWSF. Drop pod assault allows you to dump all three sternguard on the first turn, each one able to knock out a wraithknight by itself. Then drop the dreadnoughts on top of the bikes and torch them on the second turn. Drop Pod Assault doesn't require drop pods be from the same detachment, just that you have a pool of drop pods in deep strike reserve. If the eldar player doesn't have wraithknights (or only has one) grav-guns will still take out wraithlords, wraithguard, bikes, and vehicles (you just need one 6 to crash as skimmer) while the special rounds will kill anything else. When backed up by ravenwing bikes, they can't out run anything either. Look mate, it's hard to take your advice seriously when you keep making mistakes about the rules. Skimmers don't wreck on immobilised result, and haven't for several editions now (4th may have been the latest, if memory serves). So you'd need 2 6s from those gravs, just like most other vehicles in the game As for your suggestions, I have to throw my hat in behind frostbite here. What you suggest with sternguard and dreads isn't only 'not cheese' it's just plain bad. Even if you had the points for it (remember OP is talking 1500) it's a tragically anaemic setup, that would be woefully outgunned by any well rounded 2k (as that's the level you're looking at, especially with added RW) list. The skyhammer is far better cheese than this, as Grav Cannon Devs offer better firepower (better range and re-rolls) than the sternguard for fewer points. You're also overestimating the killing potential of those flamer Dreads (ignoring for the moment how easily they will die to the Eldar response). Remember many of the nastiest Eldar units, stuff like Spiders, Bikes and Fire Dragons, have 3+ saves. So that 175 point Dread and Pod combo on average won't wipe out a minimum strength scatterbike squad (for a simple example). 3 men, 2 templates, maximum 6 hits. Even if you wound with all 6, that's only killing 2 thanks to their armour. Yeah, if the Eldar field Guardian infantry or Rangers, they won't like a flaming, but those aren't the choices which make Eldar a powerhouse in the modern meta. Then, as has been said before, AV12, no save will not last long vs Eldar firepower. D will kill it with contemptuous ease, and you must prepare for D if you're expecting Eldar cheese. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harleqvin Posted March 10, 2016 Share Posted March 10, 2016 Eldar struggle against the Ravenwing, they have a couple of ways of ignoring jink saves but these dont ignore cover so you still get your rerollable cover save if in/behind terrain I used to take 3 min units of legion of the damned with triple melta to nuke wave serpents but black Knights backed with Darkshroud speeder formation should do it with 2+2+ They can take a seer council and get ignores cover using the divination table but it's not a gimme Ravenwing only reroll the cover save from jink. It literally says it in the codex.Or are you getting a rerollable cover from something else? and for the skyhammer formation. The units within the formation have to be from codex: space marine. DA couldn't be used in it. But you can have it just as another detachment within you army. So it would follow the rules for allies for how they interact. I thought it was a a re-rollable jink as well till I read it thougherly and with some back reference to the Eldar codex where it looks like the idea / text come from. Its deliberately worded as if you declare a jink you get a re-rollable cover save, a jink ignoring weapon ignores jink save not cover save So what does ignore jink mean? Any cover bonuses gained from jinking such as 4+ in the open & skilled rider. It doesn't ignore area terrain saves or the Shroud bonus, and it certainly doesn't stop you from declaring a jink & taking your re-rollable cover save if you have one. There's a plane formation in the Eldar codex with the same rule + They gave them an auto 4+ cover save Correct. But you don't get your Jink cover save because it ignores the effect of Jink. It doesn't prevent other cover saves. And Ravenwing specifically calls out the cover save from Jink. So if you prevent Jink, You don't get the re-rollable cover save from Ravenwing as it relates directly to Jink in the rule for Ravenwing. Ravenwing special ability doesn't allow you to reroll any cover save. It allows you to re-roll the cover save from jink. So if a weapon ignores Jink you don't get a Jink cover save. You can still take other cover saves from terrain and such, but those are unaffected by the Ravenwing special ability to re-roll Jink cover saves. another funny is that you can still "Jink" if a weapon has ignores Jink cover save. But what that does is it ignore the cover save you get from Jink and you get all the negatives with no benefit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
march10k Posted March 10, 2016 Share Posted March 10, 2016 another funny is that you can still "Jink" if a weapon has ignores Jink cover save. But what that does is it ignore the cover save you get from Jink and you get all the negatives with no benefit. This can still be beneficial...players will be less likely to shoot at a unit that's already jinked...if your overriding concern is survival and you don't care about full-BS shooting...jink even if it's ineffective...it might cause the other guy to rethink shooting jink-able weapons at the unit, which would save the unit if it's a theoretical jink save you would have failed. The strongest save is the one you don't have to take! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harleqvin Posted March 10, 2016 Share Posted March 10, 2016 That is true. You still can take the jink cover save against other weapons that don't ignore Jink cover saves if you Jink. One should think about the long run ={D> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackTriton Posted March 18, 2016 Author Share Posted March 18, 2016 The game went well. He did a spam of transport and wraithguard with a wraithKnight, i think that their name? Anyway he lost. In the end I just brought a Ravenwing list I found on the forum, Black Knight and command squad with a darkshroud multiple bike squad few land speeder, usual stuff. I mostly won on the back of lucky dice rolls on important places, and black knight being so good. As much as I am happy to win, playing pure ravenwing is not my style. I think competitive list are not for me, I would much rather have a fun/ fluff list. Speaking of witch, DA skyhammer formation was a lot of fun, coming down turn 2 with my terminator, in quasi-null deployment vs Orc made for a really fun time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadMek83 Posted March 20, 2016 Share Posted March 20, 2016 All wraith Eldar list or most wraith army list sound scary but needs to be played carefully since they are expensive. With grav weapons on our arsenal, Wraith constructs are not that tough. Choosing Ravenwing was smart choice. Black Knights are awesome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Punk possum Posted March 21, 2016 Share Posted March 21, 2016 Nice to Hear that you won. Wraith constructs can be a hard nut to crack, but as Menchalior points out now we have grav they are a bit less scary than they used to be. Pure Ravenwing is fluffy and can be a lot of fun to play, I love my biker's. I would recommend getting hold of a copy of Gav Thorpes raven wing novel giving it a read through and then try to resist the lure of Sammies boys... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shandwen Posted March 21, 2016 Share Posted March 21, 2016 The real bad eldar list to make itself seen is one with 60ish bs5 warp spiders. The best bet against that is the lions blade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kasper_Hawser Posted March 25, 2016 Share Posted March 25, 2016 Congrats on the win. Just for your information, another variety of cheese apart from the Wraithspam, is the Scatterlaser bike spam, which is just as bad. One bike pumping our 3/4 S6 shots is extremely painful even to 3+ armour, but I find that if you have enough marines and transports, you might just survive the S6 shots. And those things are relatively cheap, something like 27 points per bike and will be zipping out of your range frequently. And if they have a farseer with them, they can possibly have 2+ cover saves to avoid getting killed by Lascannons. In which case, I just weathered the shots and trusted in 3+ armour. Also if he brought scatterbikes, means less Wriathguard, so those were my primary targets that could kill me quickly. So I did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
march10k Posted March 25, 2016 Share Posted March 25, 2016 Pure Ravenwing is fluffy It is? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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