Perturabo's "democratic inclinations"

[Calas Typhon]

Could someone explain a little more on the decimation of the legion that Perturabo carried out. I have not read the HH books but have heard it was was because they were not the best performing legion? What kind of numbers were killed? was it just random selection? and how were they executed?

Just curious because I think this piece of fluff is what totally put me off the Iron warriors, because I want my legion to have a primarch who inspires, rather then clears house when he steps up as new management for no real reason.

I read Angel exterminatus too and I did like the way Perturabo was portrayed in that, but there were some questionable practises, such as having them fight real simulations against each other with live ammo to the death. For someone who is a demigod tactical genius, he was not great at managing his own resources. I'm surprised he had any legion left to fight in the heresy.

When Perturabo joined the IVth at the head, he looked over the records of the Legion and reviewed, basically he found them wanting and committed decimation, to make them suffer for being guilty of it. It was more than likely something he and the Tyrants of Olympia (Like the Romans) would do to fix up a force they command. Basically 1 in 10 were picked at random or on a lottery system or something to be beaten to death by their brothers to punish them for not performing to a satisfactory standard and to solidify his grip around the Legion like Iron.

A lot of people get turned off of Perturabo for this, but in my honest opinion, it adds to his character and more so the Legions, because they presumably perform perfectly to Perturabo's standards in the years after since we hear of no more decimation's.

In the simulation was anyone actually killed? I read it as something similar to that short in Age of Darkness with the Ultramarines, Rules of Engagement.

As for not managing his resources, I would not agree with that, being the cold mathematician he was.

[Sol_Invictus]

 

 

 

I think there is a more simple explanation. Look at everything that happened with Fulgrim. And yet Perturabo still hangs with the crowd. Ultimately, I think Perturabo is a Primarch with principles. And what I mean by that, is when he sticks his mind to something, his loyalty to a cause, he stands by it until the very end, come hell or high water.

The one exception to this being his previous loyalty to the Emperor?

 

who else would do any command blindly without thinking or acting differently

Dorn. Pretty sure you just described Dorn.(And to be clear here I don't like Dorn, but he is exactly the kind of jerk to blindly follow orders.)

 

I rather liked Angel Exterminatus because it gave some depth to Pertie and made him more than the petulant child who betrayed his father to avoid punishment for his temper tantrum.

[Zebulon]

Minor nitpick but "decimatio" in real world history was a ROMAN punishment for failing. There are no records of such actions among the Ancient Greek city-states.

 

I was impressed by Hyaenidae's explanation of what happened to Perturabo btw.

[Calas Typhon]

 

Dorn. Pretty sure you just described Dorn.(And to be clear here I don't like Dorn, but he is exactly the kind of jerk to blindly follow orders.)

 

I rather liked Angel Exterminatus because it gave some depth to Pertie and made him more than the petulant child who betrayed his father to avoid punishment for his temper tantrum.

 

Well the two were pretty similar.

 

Minor nitpick but "decimatio" in real world history was a ROMAN punishment for failing. There are no records of such actions among the Ancient Greek city-states.

 

I was impressed by Hyaenidae's explanation of what happened to Perturabo btw.

Forgive me, Roman punishment.

[MasterofMankind]

After his mess in olimpya, he thought he would be punished by the Emperor. Lets say that old empy already had eliminated 2 of the primarchs. So ya know. His big bro forgives him, there ya go.

But Curze already blew his planet up and merely kept conquering at the edges of the galaxy, Perturabo surely knew this.

[b1soul]

Or....

Because Horus offered him a pardon for Olympia.

That explains why he sided with Horus

 

That doesn't explain why he became a cartoonishly evil super-douche

[Calas Typhon]

 

After his mess in olimpya, he thought he would be punished by the Emperor. Lets say that old empy already had eliminated 2 of the primarchs. So ya know. His big bro forgives him, there ya go.

But Curze already blew his planet up and merely kept conquering at the edges of the galaxy, Perturabo surely knew this.

 

All we know is after seeing the hypocrisy of the Emperor, running off to the borders of the conquered imperium. Hell, do we even know that the other Primarchs bar one or two know the events of Nostramo? even then, Perturabo would surely not look at it as a forgivable thing, you know, enslaving your populace and turning it to a fortified garrison planet. Was Curze even forgiven, I was under the impression we are not aware of the events when Curze met the Emperor after destroying Nostramo and turning Dorn into a sludge of gore.

[Knight of the Raven]

I can't like Perturabo. I can't. He complains about being treated like garbage and getting no respect... while at the same time he doesn't even consider his own sons people, only tools to be broken once they displease him and numbers to throw at the enemy.

 

Then again, I consider Darth Vader to be nothing more than a petty, hypocritical bully who destroys entire planets yet refuses to kill his son because BOO HOO FAMILY, so who knows.

[Sete]

Actually perty was the Primarch that I really didn't care about, right down there with Manus and Mortarion.

After reading heresy stuff perty is one of my favourites now, Manus got some points aswell and mortarion is still a schmuck. I still dont know why he betrayed old emps.

Also Fulgrim dropped hella points with me. So many possessed stuff. Paintings, swords.. Tch what a diva he turns into. Perty could have some manic depression rolling on. Primarchs but still human. Also the paranoia with the eye of terror might have been bad for him.

[Calas Typhon]

I can't like Perturabo. I can't. He complains about being treated like garbage and getting no respect... while at the same time he doesn't even consider his own sons people, only tools to be broken once they displease him and numbers to throw at the enemy.

 

Then again, I consider Darth Vader to be nothing more than a petty, hypocritical bully who destroys entire planets yet refuses to kill his son because BOO HOO FAMILY, so who knows.

 

That just comes down to a certain author trying to make him seem more emotional. I thought there were some great moments with Perturabo in AE, but Hyaenidae summed it up perfectly.

 

As for the sons, he did have respect and looked out for his sons, but there was a limit, he (from what I gather) only wants the best from them whether they like it or not, which is where the Decimation came in earlier on. As for the throwing numbers at the enemy, there is not much you can do in a siege once the walls come down, they have to push people in and test/work with the situations. Do you think any other Primarch would be different if they were commanding a siege? The problem is, The Iron Warriors only really got the sieges, or that is all we see of them.

[Doctor Perils]

While the discussions about the genius/douchebaggery of Perturabo, and the decimation, are interesting, I'm also interested in what people might think about the OP :P

[Legionary Pallas]

 

Or....

Because Horus offered him a pardon for Olympia.

That explains why he sided with Horus

 

That doesn't explain why he became a cartoonishly evil super-douche

 

As if he wasn't evil before? Put yourself in the shoes of a human world forced into the Imperium via bloody destruction. Make no mistake, there are no "good guys".

[Augustus]

The Emperor fought at least some of those sieges with Pert going by what we read in After D`aesha(sp). So I think he lead by example. And if he treated Perturabo like a tool, Perturaboohoo only did the same to his own "sons." 

 

I think Pert is a confused character made all the more confusing cause of Angel Exterminatus. It gave us a humanising presentation of Perturabo that should have come 50 years earlier (in universe time). I have principles!! Betray the Emperor and my brothers who never liked me in a devious sneak attack with no honor cause they are only the Enemy now. Oh wait, those shattered legion survivors. I can destroy them but I wont. Cause they deserve honor. 

 

I do like the forgeworld portrayal of him, but my thought might have changed since its been a while since I read it.

[Calas Typhon]

The Emperor fought at least some of those sieges with Pert going by what we read in After D`aesha(sp). So I think he lead by example. And if he treated Perturabo like a tool, Perturaboohoo only did the same to his own "sons." 

 

 

That was not a siege I believe and was just a place where the Warhounds and Iron Warriors stood their ground against the xenos of the planet. I would say that he did not fight in any sieges judging by the obvious ignorance of the state of the Iron Warriors and Perturabo when approaching the end of the crusade. I believe that is the only mention we have of Perturabo fighting with the Emperor in the Crusade bar when he was learning from him after being found on Olympia, so it is entirely possible he had no more contact with him after that.

 

Are there any actual examples of Perturabo just chucking his Iron Warriors down the drain for no reason?

[Arendious]

 

 

The Emperor fought at least some of those sieges with Pert going by what we read in After D`aesha(sp). So I think he lead by example. And if he treated Perturabo like a tool, Perturaboohoo only did the same to his own "sons."

 

That was not a siege I believe and was just a place where the Warhounds and Iron Warriors stood their ground against the xenos of the planet. I would say that he did not fight in any sieges judging by the obvious ignorance of the state of the Iron Warriors and Perturabo when approaching the end of the crusade. I believe that is the only mention we have of Perturabo fighting with the Emperor in the Crusade bar when he was learning from him after being found on Olympia, so it is entirely possible he had no more contact with him after that.

 

Are there any actual examples of Perturabo just chucking his Iron Warriors down the drain for no reason?

Other than the Heresy?

[Augustus]

The whole Dantioch Hrud affair?

 

I thought it was a siege cause they had to build those raised platform things. But if it wasn't then you have him and hid legion afforded the honor of fighting with the Emperor.

[Calas Typhon]

The whole Dantioch Hrud affair?

 

I thought it was a siege cause they had to build those raised platform things. But if it wasn't then you have him and hid legion afforded the honor of fighting with the Emperor.

 

As far as I remember, the garrison was infiltrated and destroyed, which led to three other worlds being destroyed and Dantioch being placed on garrison elsewhere even in the state he was in. Perturabo had no direct influence on the Garrison and its battles.

 

Must admit, its been a while since I read it, but It was just earthworks, trenches and ditches was it not?

[Nehekhare]

Perturabo is the douchiest primarch of the bunch. His fall is rather unconvincing IMO

 

What fall? Perturabo did never fall.

 

 

He is War-Broken. We're talking about God-Level traumatic mental disorder here.

Olympia was the line crossed. His mind broke, his heart broke, and he became the Monster he ran from his whole life.

 

 

 

He became a monster the moment he decided not to fail climbing that cliff wal at lochos. Everything from there on is but a consequence of his being.

His gift always was to discern the weak spot in everything (humans, walls, the galaxy...this is why he always felt the eye watching him).

He wasn't broken, his paranoia was real. He, Angron, Curze and Lorgar, each in their own way, were the only ones to ever see that reality itself was broken.

 

I can't like Perturabo. I can't. He complains about being treated like garbage and getting no respect... while at the same time he doesn't even consider his own sons people, only tools to be broken once they displease him and numbers to throw at the enemy.

 

He didn't complain. Not once.

[Brofist]

Could someone explain a little more on the decimation of the legion that Perturabo carried out. I have not read the HH books but have heard it was was because they were not the best performing legion? What kind of numbers were killed? was it just random selection? and how were they executed?

Just curious because I think this piece of fluff is what totally put me off the Iron warriors, because I want my legion to have a primarch who inspires, rather then clears house when he steps up as new management for no real reason.

I really feel you on this one. I also wanted a convincing leader and am definitely having a hard time with some of the inconsistent writing. That said, I have grown to really like the IWs despite these shortcomings. Let me see if I can walk you through it:

While unintentional, they've become a legion carried entirely by the legionaries. Put yourself in their shoes. Your primarch has serious mental problems, mismanages yet expects perfection, and ultimately cares nothing about you. You are decimated when he gains command of your once proud force. Your reward are endless battles. Methodical meat grinders with extremely high attrition and little hope for survival. Your only reward is more fighting. There is no recognition for anything you do. The other legions look down on you, you get the worst work, and they get all the credit. You are entirely stuck and abandoned in a machine of war. There is no escape and no light at the end of the tunnel. Just constant war and death of the absolute worst kind.

Despite all this, you still follow orders to the letter. You take pride in stubbornly standing shoulder to shoulder with your fellow legionaries. The only support you have are the legionaries that fight alongside you. They are all in the exact same situation as you. You take on worse and worse assignments together and perform everything to the letter. At some point you become cynical and laugh at the awful assignment you hear you will have next, or when the Fists hoist their flag over a battlefield full of your friend's bodies. Over time this turns into bitterness. Hate toward those that put you into this nightmare. All you have is your determination and the brothers around you. You fight on not because you care, but because you don't want to let them down. That's your duty.

For me this makes the IWs one of the most grim and tragic of the legions. Everything is terrible, including their primarch, but they still hold it together and execute. It's amazing that they hold it together for so long as they do. For me Olympia signifies the legion realizing that nothing matters. They have been fighting for nothing and after giving everything for so long they're finally just over it. Many look to their primarch as the person who 'saves them'. Others hate him just as much and throw their lots elsewhere.

[Doctor Perils]

That's a great explanation of the IVth's mentality Bulbafist :)

[Nehekhare]

 

While unintentional, they've become a legion carried entirely by the legionaries. Put yourself in their shoes. Your primarch has serious mental problems, mismanages yet expects perfection, and ultimately cares nothing about you. You are decimated when he gains command of your once proud force. Your reward are endless battles. Methodical meat grinders with extremely high attrition and little hope for survival. Your only reward is more fighting. There is no recognition for anything you do. The other legions look down on you, you get the worst work, and they get all the credit. You are entirely stuck and abandoned in a machine of war. There is no escape and no light at the end of the tunnel. Just constant war and death of the absolute worst kind.

 

Despite all this, you still follow orders to the letter. You take pride in stubbornly standing shoulder to shoulder with your fellow legionaries. The only support you have are the legionaries that fight alongside you. They are all in the exact same situation as you. You take on worse and worse assignments together and perform everything to the letter. At some point you become cynical and laugh at the awful assignment you hear you will have next, or when the Fists hoist their flag over a battlefield full of your friend's bodies. Over time this turns into bitterness. Hate toward those that put you into this nightmare. All you have is your determination and the brothers around you. You fight on not because you care, but because you don't want to let them down. That's your duty.

 

For me this makes the IWs one of the most grim and tragic of the legions. Everything is terrible, including their primarch, but they still hold it together and execute. It's amazing that they hold it together for so long as they do. For me Olympia signifies the legion realizing that nothing matters. They have been fighting for nothing and after giving everything for so long they're finally just over it. Many look to their primarch as the person who 'saves them'. Others hate him just as much and throw their lots elsewhere.

 

You seem to confuse us with the World Eaters. Perturabo had no "mental problems".

 

It was the legion who had become a problem. They had become vainglorious. Decimation was simply the most efficient correction for this weakness.

Look at the Fists to see what the IVth might have otherwise become - zealots and fools, like their broken Primarch suffering from severe delusions that repeatedly brought about their own destruction just as Dorn brought low what he so selflessly loved most (the Emperor, by interring him in the golden throne), constant self-loathing being the consequence.

 

Yeah, sure, identify with the Legionaries. But do not forget that their perspective is not the truth. The only truth is the grimdark of the fictional setting.

And that means that Perturabo was right: Legionaries ARE nothing but a tool, a ressource traded for victory. Paranoia and bitterness ARE real, as there is nothing but betrayal and destruction in a chaotic universe. The emperor's dream WAS wrong. Horus WAS a traitor. Fulgrim WAS a disgrace. The Eye WAS there, all the time, watching.

 

The truth is that reality can never live up to our dreams.

[Doctor Perils]

You seem to confuse us with the World Eaters. Perturabo had no "mental problems".

 

It was the legion who had become a problem. They had become vainglorious. Decimation was simply the most efficient correction for this weakness.

Look at the Fists to see what the IVth might have otherwise become - zealots and fools, like their broken Primarch suffering from severe delusions that repeatedly brought about their own destruction just as Dorn brought low what he so selflessly loved most (the Emperor, by interring him in the golden throne), constant self-loathing being the consequence.

I don't think the Iron Warriors were vainglorious by the time Perturabo was found: they had already started sliding down the slope of bitterness, a slide that only became worse once Perturabo took the lead.

 

And I think that Perturabo did indeed have mental problems: he is a psychopath (from wikipedia :)

 

Psychopathy (/saɪˈkɒpəθi/), [...] is traditionally defined as a personality disorder characterized by enduring antisocial behavior, diminished empathy and remorse, and disinhibited or bold behavior.

 

Of course, all the Primarchs had mental disorders (and who can blame them, seeing their position in the galaxy ?). Perturabo, Angron and Curze are just some of the ones in which it is most obvious, making them much less hypocritical then the likes of Guilliman and Sanguinius.

[Sol_Invictus]

Of course, all the Primarchs had mental disorders (and who can blame them, seeing their position in the galaxy ?). Perturabo, Angron, Russ, and Curze are just some of the ones in which it is most obvious, making them much less hypocritical then the likes of Guilliman and Sanguinius.

 

How does having mental issues that aren't necessarily visible to others makes one a hypocrite.They might be in denial but I'm not sure it makes them hypocrites. And that's assuming they are aware of the disorders from which they suffer which I'm assuming the majority of them are not including Perturabo. 

 

Anyway I agree, Perturabo is definitely a psychopath. 

[Arkangilos]

Are they disorders though? They would be disorders to us, because we aren't meant to be that way. However, were many of the primarchs not designed to think different? His mental state was probably a design that helped him in his siege warfare.

 

Also, the space marines aren't there to be coddled and loved by their Primarch. They are there to win wars.

[Calas Typhon]

Are they disorders though? They would be disorders to us, because we aren't meant to be that way. However, were many of the primarchs not designed to think different? His mental state was probably a design that helped him in his siege warfare.

 

Also, the space marines aren't there to be coddled and loved by their Primarch. They are there to win wars.

 

Well it seems that he was designed with durability in mind, Physical and Mental. For example, The dulled sense of pain from decreased nociceptors which was highlighted in Deliverance Lost and the decreased proprioceptory function also shown in DL, which  possibly gives those with decreased proprioceptory functions a need to look down at legs to make sure they are there; and falling down whilst walking when attention is drifting away from focusing on walking. Why the Emperor would implant that who knows.

 

Essentially, Perturabo has been wierdly messed around with. Adding to the top of this his mentality from what we gather, and the need to do better and become the greatest with the Eye of Terror fixating on him, It would not be surprising that he has some mental disorder by real life standards especially hes almost need to achieve what is ahead of him to prove something higher. Lets not forget the Vigilance which seems to radiate off the Geneseed, that "paranoia" would not exactly help with a giant warp storm focusing on you.