Nehekhare Posted March 11, 2016 Share Posted March 11, 2016 I'd like to stress the fact that mental disorders are not a category applying to genetically engineered gods of war. Perturabo worked exactly as intended. DefinitionThe definition and classification of mental disorders are key issues for researchers as well as service providers and those who may be diagnosed. For a mental state to classify as a disorder, it generally needs to cause dysfunction.[3] Most international clinical documents use the term mental "disorder", while "illness" is also common. It has been noted that using the term "mental" (i.e., of the mind) is not necessarily meant to imply separateness from brain or body. According to DSM-IV, a mental disorder is a psychological syndrome or pattern, which occurs in an individual, and causes distress via a painful symptom or disability, or increases the risk of death, pain, or disability; however it excludes normal responses such as grief from loss of a loved one, and also excludes deviant behavior for political, religious, or societal reasons not arising from a dysfunction in the individual.[4][5] Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/320186-perturabos-democratic-inclinations/page/3/#findComment-4333105 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calas Typhon Posted March 11, 2016 Share Posted March 11, 2016 I'd like to stress the fact that mental disorders are not a category applying to genetically engineered gods of war. Perturabo worked exactly as intended. DefinitionThe definition and classification of mental disorders are key issues for researchers as well as service providers and those who may be diagnosed. For a mental state to classify as a disorder, it generally needs to cause dysfunction.[3] Most international clinical documents use the term mental "disorder", while "illness" is also common. It has been noted that using the term "mental" (i.e., of the mind) is not necessarily meant to imply separateness from brain or body. According to DSM-IV, a mental disorder is a psychological syndrome or pattern, which occurs in an individual, and causes distress via a painful symptom or disability, or increases the risk of death, pain, or disability; however it excludes normal responses such as grief from loss of a loved one, and also excludes deviant behavior for political, religious, or societal reasons not arising from a dysfunction in the individual.[4][5] But the problem is, we actually have a prime example of a Primarch with a group of mental disorders. Konrad Curze. He fits almost perfectly into the definition you have just given. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/320186-perturabos-democratic-inclinations/page/3/#findComment-4333111 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doctor Perils Posted March 11, 2016 Share Posted March 11, 2016 I'd like to stress the fact that mental disorders are not a category applying to genetically engineered gods of war. Perturabo worked exactly as intended. DefinitionThe definition and classification of mental disorders are key issues for researchers as well as service providers and those who may be diagnosed. For a mental state to classify as a disorder, it generally needs to cause dysfunction.[3] Most international clinical documents use the term mental "disorder", while "illness" is also common. It has been noted that using the term "mental" (i.e., of the mind) is not necessarily meant to imply separateness from brain or body. According to DSM-IV, a mental disorder is a psychological syndrome or pattern, which occurs in an individual, and causes distress via a painful symptom or disability, or increases the risk of death, pain, or disability; however it excludes normal responses such as grief from loss of a loved one, and also excludes deviant behavior for political, religious, or societal reasons not arising from a dysfunction in the individual.[4][5] That's actually a pretty good point. However, I think that the Primarchs all have some kind of psychological flaw (not necessarily a "disorder"). ie, Fulgrim, despite not being "dysfunctional", is definitely far too narcistic and egocentric to be a full packet of cards... PS: please excuse any possible weird formating of this post, I've just switched computers and I'm not yet used to it :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/320186-perturabos-democratic-inclinations/page/3/#findComment-4333137 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevak Dal Posted March 11, 2016 Share Posted March 11, 2016 I proposed making a diy chapter of space marines that were basically the spartan 2s from the Halo universe (no females though), but grimdarkier. No honor or glory, they were engaged in cryogenic staisis to and from battle, awakened, muster and engage the foe, destroy them dispassionately and reenter staisis, with little to no allowance for developing personality. My friends said other space marines would be horrified at such marines as they would be the antithisis of astartes, in that they are solely biological weapons systems. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/320186-perturabos-democratic-inclinations/page/3/#findComment-4333222 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slips Posted March 11, 2016 Share Posted March 11, 2016 Isnt that basically a Successor Chapter of the Blood Angels who, in between battles, all put themselves into stasis coffins? These guys: http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Charnel_Guard Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/320186-perturabos-democratic-inclinations/page/3/#findComment-4333257 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nehekhare Posted March 11, 2016 Share Posted March 11, 2016 they were engaged in cryogenic staisis to and from battle, awakened, muster and engage the foe, destroy them dispassionately and reenter staisis, with little to no allowance for developing personality. This is actually how dreadnoughts are kept in every legion/chapter. The honor/glory thing is just part of the psychic programming. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/320186-perturabos-democratic-inclinations/page/3/#findComment-4333259 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevak Dal Posted March 11, 2016 Share Posted March 11, 2016 They would basically take the personality wiping of the Grey Knights to the extreme. No PTSD, no emotion just advance and engage hostile forces, and await orders if opportunity doesn't present itself. The Emperor messed up with the Astartes program by allowing any nacent humanity to come through the process of making a space marine. The "honor and glory" psychic conditioning seems to have been a vain addition by the Emperor, or perhaps a rare dash of pity for the boys he was going to be turning into his weapons, if you are going to make a super soldier, forego the humanity. "Our duty, as soldiers is to defend the Imperium, no matter the costs." Is the way to go. This "oh let them have personalities and ego" and all was a bad move. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/320186-perturabos-democratic-inclinations/page/3/#findComment-4333288 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThatOneMarshal Posted March 12, 2016 Share Posted March 12, 2016 I can't like Perturabo. I can't. He complains about being treated like garbage and getting no respect... while at the same time he doesn't even consider his own sons people, only tools to be broken once they displease him and numbers to throw at the enemy. Then again, I consider Darth Vader to be nothing more than a petty, hypocritical bully who destroys entire planets yet refuses to kill his son because BOO HOO FAMILY, so who knows. Now I will not disagree with you in regards to Darth Vader as I consider him to be a chump compared to his contemporaries such as grand Moff Tarkin, I mean seriously you think killing 30 children is bad? Grand Moff Tarkin laughs at you and raises you one with the time he landed his ship on a bunch of empire protestors or the time he blew up a planet( it was him not Vader who made the decision). Now when it comes to pert I know you may not like him being a hypocrite but let's consider something for a minute, to an extent most people are hypocrites. From a historical perspective let's just look at America. Any American worth his or hers salt knows the famous line "We hold these truths self evident that all men are created equal" yet the man who penned these words owned slaves and later put a ruling that slaves were counted as property. There are many other examples of critiscims throughout history and the world today as well. From the perspective of 40k and 30k think about it everyone's a hypocrite. Even the emperor is a hypocrite. The emperor proclaims that he wants to set up an unified human power and believes the imperium better than their rivalries yet they comment genocide against all xenos and all humans who resist the imperium taking over them are to be destroyed and forced into the imperium. He claims that he cares for the priamrchs yet he lets madmen like Konrad Kurze and Angron go around freely without help. Just about every legion has hypocrites in it. The imperium is founded upon hypocrisy starting with the idea that humanity is better than all The other barbarian races. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/320186-perturabos-democratic-inclinations/page/3/#findComment-4333424 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brofist Posted March 12, 2016 Share Posted March 12, 2016 My real problem with Pert is that I can't relate to him. I'm not really into super hero fiction (definitely a factor), but I find more in common with the line troops than with how he's depicted. I know it's not intentional, but the lack of connection has added to what makes the legion so damn grim. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/320186-perturabos-democratic-inclinations/page/3/#findComment-4333446 Share on other sites More sharing options...
depthcharge12 Posted March 12, 2016 Share Posted March 12, 2016 AE was phenomenal for the first few chapters, and then I think I blacked out for the rest of the book. Probably selective memory. There was another great part of Perturabo shoving Fulgrim's face into a miniature clockwork Titan :D I honestly see Perturabo related to Odysseus or Daedalus - more like the latter. He wanted to build great wonders, but a tyrant forced him against his will to build for him. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/320186-perturabos-democratic-inclinations/page/3/#findComment-4333452 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hergrmir Posted March 12, 2016 Share Posted March 12, 2016 I proposed making a diy chapter of space marines that were basically the spartan 2s from the Halo universe (no females though), but grimdarkier. No honor or glory, they were engaged in cryogenic staisis to and from battle, awakened, muster and engage the foe, destroy them dispassionately and reenter staisis, with little to no allowance for developing personality. My friends said other space marines would be horrified at such marines as they would be the antithisis of astartes, in that they are solely biological weapons systems. Well, that's more or less how Autek Mor and his group of legionaries works, right? If I'm not confusing the cryogenically frozen Iron Hands from Keys of Hel short who turn down working with Meduson with Autek Mor from FW's Book 6. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/320186-perturabos-democratic-inclinations/page/3/#findComment-4333468 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knight of the Raven Posted March 13, 2016 Share Posted March 13, 2016 ThatOneMarshal and Chtonia: thanks for the info and correction. And to go on about hypocrisy, yeah, most people are hypocrites, if not all of them, including myself as much as it disgusts me that I am one. I've got an odd relationship with Hypocrite Prime, I mean, the Emperor. I consider the likes of Alexander III of Macedon, Julius Caesar, Attila, Genghis Khan and Napoleon I to be nothing but vermin who murdered thousands to sate their oversized ego and yet with the Emperor, he's like "hey baby wanna murder the entire galaxy?" and I'm all like "hot damn where do I sign!?" It's just weird. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/320186-perturabos-democratic-inclinations/page/3/#findComment-4334441 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted March 13, 2016 Share Posted March 13, 2016 ThatOneMarshal and Chtonia: thanks for the info and correction. And to go on about hypocrisy, yeah, most people are hypocrites, if not all of them, including myself as much as it disgusts me that I am one. I've got an odd relationship with Hypocrite Prime, I mean, the Emperor. I consider the likes of Alexander III of Macedon, Julius Caesar, Attila, Genghis Khan and Napoleon I to be nothing but vermin who murdered thousands to sate their oversized ego and yet with the Emperor, he's like "hey baby wanna murder the entire galaxy?" and I'm all like "hot damn where do I sign!?" It's just weird. Weird, since All of those guys, save Attila are regarded as heroes and state builders in political science. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/320186-perturabos-democratic-inclinations/page/3/#findComment-4334485 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sete Posted March 13, 2016 Share Posted March 13, 2016 Heros in their home land, tyrants and murderers in the lands of the others. All a matter of perspective. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/320186-perturabos-democratic-inclinations/page/3/#findComment-4334565 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calas Typhon Posted March 13, 2016 Share Posted March 13, 2016 ThatOneMarshal and Chtonia: thanks for the info and correction. And to go on about hypocrisy, yeah, most people are hypocrites, if not all of them, including myself as much as it disgusts me that I am one. I've got an odd relationship with Hypocrite Prime, I mean, the Emperor. I consider the likes of Alexander III of Macedon, Julius Caesar, Attila, Genghis Khan and Napoleon I to be nothing but vermin who murdered thousands to sate their oversized ego and yet with the Emperor, he's like "hey baby wanna murder the entire galaxy?" and I'm all like "hot damn where do I sign!?" It's just weird. Weird, since All of those guys, save Attila are regarded as heroes and state builders in political science. Well history is written by the victors. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/320186-perturabos-democratic-inclinations/page/3/#findComment-4334566 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sete Posted March 13, 2016 Share Posted March 13, 2016 Napoleon was defeated. Cesar was murdered. Not exactly winners. But the usual anglo saxonic view we have on history does not help much. Its a good topic to be discussed, but not here. The intention of the Emperor was to destroy or severely weaken the Chaos Gods and save mankind. He was an individual that sacrified everything to ensure mankind survival. And people still try to portray him as a bad guy? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/320186-perturabos-democratic-inclinations/page/3/#findComment-4334570 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calas Typhon Posted March 13, 2016 Share Posted March 13, 2016 Napoleon was defeated. Cesar was murdered. Not exactly winners. But the usual anglo saxonic view we have on history does not help much. Its a good topic to be discussed, but not here. The intention of the Emperor was to destroy or severely weaken the Chaos Gods and save mankind. He was an individual that sacrified everything to ensure mankind survival. And people still try to portray him as a bad guy? Well sanctioned genocide and murder are not really traits of a good guy. He is the definition of Bad guy with decent intentions. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/320186-perturabos-democratic-inclinations/page/3/#findComment-4334601 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sete Posted March 13, 2016 Share Posted March 13, 2016 Napoleon was defeated. Cesar was murdered. Not exactly winners. But the usual anglo saxonic view we have on history does not help much. Its a good topic to be discussed, but not here. The intention of the Emperor was to destroy or severely weaken the Chaos Gods and save mankind. He was an individual that sacrified everything to ensure mankind survival. And people still try to portray him as a bad guy? Well sanctioned genocide and murder are not really traits of a good guy. He is the definition of Bad guy with decent intentions. Choosing the lesser of 2 evils. Do genocide and murder and save mankind? Do not give a damn about anything and let mankind be consumed by deamons? Pick one. He was in for the long run. Sacrifices had to be made. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/320186-perturabos-democratic-inclinations/page/3/#findComment-4334623 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calas Typhon Posted March 13, 2016 Share Posted March 13, 2016 Napoleon was defeated. Cesar was murdered. Not exactly winners. But the usual anglo saxonic view we have on history does not help much. Its a good topic to be discussed, but not here. The intention of the Emperor was to destroy or severely weaken the Chaos Gods and save mankind. He was an individual that sacrified everything to ensure mankind survival. And people still try to portray him as a bad guy? Well sanctioned genocide and murder are not really traits of a good guy. He is the definition of Bad guy with decent intentions. Choosing the lesser of 2 evils. Do genocide and murder and save mankind? Do not give a damn about anything and let mankind be consumed by deamons? Pick one. He was in for the long run. Sacrifices had to be made. What I am saying is, just because he was doing good for humanity, it does not mean he was a good guy. It does not mean he was wrong to do it either, only he cannot be considered a good guy when he sanctions such actions. And I am sure he is aware of that too. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/320186-perturabos-democratic-inclinations/page/3/#findComment-4334631 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sete Posted March 13, 2016 Share Posted March 13, 2016 Napoleon was defeated. Cesar was murdered. Not exactly winners. But the usual anglo saxonic view we have on history does not help much. Its a good topic to be discussed, but not here. The intention of the Emperor was to destroy or severely weaken the Chaos Gods and save mankind. He was an individual that sacrified everything to ensure mankind survival. And people still try to portray him as a bad guy? Well sanctioned genocide and murder are not really traits of a good guy. He is the definition of Bad guy with decent intentions. Choosing the lesser of 2 evils. Do genocide and murder and save mankind? Do not give a damn about anything and let mankind be consumed by deamons? Pick one. He was in for the long run. Sacrifices had to be made. What I am saying is, just because he was doing good for humanity, it does not mean he was a good guy. It does not mean he was wrong to do it either, only he cannot be considered a good guy when he sanctions such actions. And I am sure he is aware of that too. You are right. I have nothing to add. :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/320186-perturabos-democratic-inclinations/page/3/#findComment-4334639 Share on other sites More sharing options...
rendingon1+ Posted March 13, 2016 Share Posted March 13, 2016 What I am saying is, just because he was doing good for humanity, it does not mean he was a good guy. It does not mean he was wrong to do it either, only he cannot be considered a good guy when he sanctions such actions. And I am sure he is aware of that too. That's exctly what makes him a good guy. I don't understand that empathy towards xenos races. And no, it's not "I'm human, die xenos scum, ave Imperator" propaganda fueled rethorics but facts - most xenos species were hostile and they had to be exterminated. I don't like argument that "using violence makes you automatically bad guy" because let's face it - when someone threatens your life (using physical force) and you have means to defend yourself using physical force - what will you do? Being "good" (debatable) for humanity is what makes Emperor good guy. Why should I be concerned with xenos "rights to live"? This is not Star Wars universe, in 30/40k aliens are agressors and are not even humans (obviously) ergo they have to die :) Simple logic. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/320186-perturabos-democratic-inclinations/page/3/#findComment-4334687 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calas Typhon Posted March 13, 2016 Share Posted March 13, 2016 What I am saying is, just because he was doing good for humanity, it does not mean he was a good guy. It does not mean he was wrong to do it either, only he cannot be considered a good guy when he sanctions such actions. And I am sure he is aware of that too. That's exctly what makes him a good guy. I don't understand that empathy towards xenos races. And no, it's not "I'm human, die xenos scum, ave Imperator" propaganda fueled rethorics but facts - most xenos species were hostile and they had to be exterminated. I don't like argument that "using violence makes you automatically bad guy" because let's face it - when someone threatens your life (using physical force) and you have means to defend yourself using physical force - what will you do? Being "good" (debatable) for humanity is what makes Emperor good guy. Why should I be concerned with xenos "rights to live"? This is not Star Wars universe, in 30/40k aliens are agressors and are not even humans (obviously) ergo they have to die Simple logic. But I am not talking about Xenos, I am talking strictly humanity. Xenos species without a use can be genocided to extinction for all I care. Someone who sanctions the likes of the Night Lords, War Hounds and Death Guard on humanity can never be classed as good. Again, It does not mean he is wrong though. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/320186-perturabos-democratic-inclinations/page/3/#findComment-4334699 Share on other sites More sharing options...
depthcharge12 Posted March 13, 2016 Share Posted March 13, 2016 What I am saying is, just because he was doing good for humanity, it does not mean he was a good guy. It does not mean he was wrong to do it either, only he cannot be considered a good guy when he sanctions such actions. And I am sure he is aware of that too. That's exctly what makes him a good guy. I don't understand that empathy towards xenos races. And no, it's not "I'm human, die xenos scum, ave Imperator" propaganda fueled rethorics but facts - most xenos species were hostile and they had to be exterminated. I don't like argument that "using violence makes you automatically bad guy" because let's face it - when someone threatens your life (using physical force) and you have means to defend yourself using physical force - what will you do? Being "good" (debatable) for humanity is what makes Emperor good guy. Why should I be concerned with xenos "rights to live"? This is not Star Wars universe, in 30/40k aliens are agressors and are not even humans (obviously) ergo they have to die Simple logic. But I am not talking about Xenos, I am talking strictly humanity. Xenos species without a use can be genocided to extinction for all I care. Someone who sanctions the likes of the Night Lords, War Hounds and Death Guard on humanity can never be classed as good. Again, It does not mean he is wrong though. I'd argue that napalm, flechettes, and poison gas have their merits in war too. "It is good that war is brutal, less we grow too fond of it." Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/320186-perturabos-democratic-inclinations/page/3/#findComment-4334704 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slips Posted March 13, 2016 Share Posted March 13, 2016 I'd like for this to get back on topic instead of debating whether the Emperor was a good guy or not. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/320186-perturabos-democratic-inclinations/page/3/#findComment-4334706 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sulemain Posted March 14, 2016 Author Share Posted March 14, 2016 I'd like for this to get back on topic instead of debating whether the Emperor was a good guy or not. Yes please. I've had people dancing around the answer to my query :D . Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/320186-perturabos-democratic-inclinations/page/3/#findComment-4334867 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.