Perturabo's "democratic inclinations"

[Nehekhare]

I don't know if I would say the Decimation improved the Iron Warriors. Given that they ended up genociding their homeworld, turning on the Imperium, and were unable to take the Imperial Palace, necessitating Horus' desperation gambit of "1v1 me dad".

wrong.

1) There is not a single shade of doubt that the IVth legion became more efficient through decimation. Merely the means were deemed unethical by other Primarchs not as committed to the great crusade as Perturabo was (notably Guilliman) or Legions not created from gene-seed of equally high quality.

before:

The IVth Legion's adherence to the organisational structures, fighting methods and panoply laid out as a pattern for the Legiones astartes at the very beginning of the Great Crusade remained consistent, with no fresh 'stamp' of culture brought by interaction with a Primarch for many years (HH3, 106)

resulting in:

constant warfare and attrition had eroded their numbers - not dangerously to their existence, as the IVth's gene-seed continued to prove of the highest quality as far as ease of implantation went - but at least to the point where several others had since eclipsed them in size and range, while certain other Legions, most notably the Luna wolves and Dark Angels, outshone them in the glory and majesty of their conquests.(HH3, 106)

therefore:

It was not enough for Perturabo that they were merely superior, their fault lay in that among the legions they were not already supreme (HH3, 110)

after:

At the head of a newly constituted force, the 125th Expeditionary Fleet, into which Perturabo drew the bulk of his Legion's strength, the Primarch had command of a force which quickly became the battering ram of the Great Crusade. As they fought alongside each of their fellow Legions in turn, they gained an unmatched reputation for brutal efficiency in battle, mastery of armoured warfare and as artillerists without peer among the legions. (HH3, 110)

2) They - and ONLY they - were indeed able to breach the walls of the imperial palace:

Under Perturabo's command, a combined assault was launched that finally saw a traitor breakthrough. Perturabo combined an underground assault in tunneler drills with a pinpoint Chaos titan Macrocannon bombardment.^[2]The walls of the Emperor's Palace finally broke, unleashing a flood of traitors into the inner courtyards of the Palace. A massive labyrinth of hallways, complexes, courtyards, and buildings, fighting in the outer palace was room-to-room and saw heavy casualties inflicted on the Traitors.^[2] Moreover, the inner sanctum of the palace had been heavily reinforced and in the enclosed spaces Traitor titans and heavy war engines became easy prey for the well-prepared loyalists. The Adeptus Custodes made a fierce counterattack at the inner gardens of such brutal efficiency that none of the traitor horde could initially stand against them. However in the end, the Titans of the Legio Mortis proved decisive in a traitor breakthrough. In addition traitor numbers were too great and even the Custodes were overwhelmed. After inflicting horrendous casualties on the traitor forces, so much so that the Chaos Titans could no longer continue to advance,^[2] the Custodes would fall back to the final defensive line around the Imperial Palace, the Eternity Gate, manned by the Blood Angels and their Primarch Sanguinius. Perturabo and his Iron Warriors thought that their job had been done, and the Primarch left the battle for the Inner Palace to instead direct a siege against the Imperial Fists Fortress Monastery nearby.^[2]

^{(2: Index Astartes IV - Siege of the Emperor's Palace)}

I can relate to that. Let Guilliman write down how true astartes wage war.

[Sulemain]

You know, one suspects that if the Heresy had never happened for whatever reason, I bet ya Corvus Corax, a freedom fighter and rebel, would have had something to say about the Emperor's (Enlightened) Tyranny.  

[Arkangilos]

I think people make out the Emperors empire to be worse than it was. I mean, yeah it was bad for a select group of people, but overall people had normal lives.

[Marshal Rohr]

I think people make out the Emperors empire to be worse than it was. I mean, yeah it was bad for a select group of people, but overall people had normal lives.

This.

 

It gets swallowed up in the grim dark of the heresy, but during the great crusade it was humanity's golden age. I don't care what the rule book says about the time after the beheading or the era after Guillimans rebuilding. Mankind led by the greatest man to ever live, his sons, and the most powerful military forces ever seen in the galaxy, past, present, and future. Nothing could ever possibly beat that.

[GhostMalone]

And in every society throughout history there have been those worse off than others, the emperor wasn't going to make life easy for everyone he was benefiting the race as a whole.

 

Joe blow in tge slums ain't getting any Imperial handouts, but due to his limited intelligence he'd see that as the imperium being tyrannical and give him cause to rebel, as humans we are selfish tge ivth Legion were selfless but one can only be selfless for so long as others are selfish lauding laurels over those that serve

[Terminus]

I just found it cheap that Horus was wounded by one of those fancy blades, and got currupted, and Guilliman just walks it off.

Now I dont know if it was the same type of blade or one had a special property over the other.

Horus was basically given the choice of dying and being relegated to the dust of history as the Imperium moved from the Crusade era (and being outshone by surviving brothers he already felt insecure towards), or basically start the whole heresy business, and win or lose, be forever part of the fabric of mankind's destiny.

 

The source of wounding isn't really relevant, and he saw through the deception. It just didn't matter. The fact that he was being manipulated (however unsuccessfully, the attempt alone is an affront) by a lower creature like Erebus, and that Magnus was also in on the greater game (so the two nerdiest, non-warrior primarchs are more clued in than the supposed first among equals) just served to further underscore how insignificant in the grand scheme of things all his accomplishments were up to that point.

 

Irrelevance or infamy? Easy choice, truth be told.

[Legatus]

There is not a single shade of doubt that the IVth legion became more efficient through decimation. Merely the means were deemed unethical by other Primarchs not as committed to the great crusade as Perturabo was (notably Guilliman)

 

... The guy who conquered the most worlds? At the fastest rate? In the best conditions? Gee, imagine if he had actually tried.

[Sete]

And I thought horus conquered most worlds...

[Legatus]

A lot of people think that. Some GW authors even think that. A common misconception that even made it into one of the Index Astartes articles. A majority of Codices and Rulebooks inform us otherwise, though.

[GhostMalone]

I thought it went Horus first as he was the spearhead. But who needs to claim world's when there's xenos to Butcher, im sure russ Horus and the khan killed more alien empires then sweeping world's into compliance.

 

I think it's apples and oranges yeah they both fruit and they can be good for you but there different. Worlds claimed in compliance weighed against butchered xenos and non compliant empires are similar but different

[Legatus]

The explicite goal of the Great Crusade was to reunite all of the lost human worlds into one large Empire, though.

[Nehekhare]

A lot of people think that. Some GW authors even think that. A common misconception that even made it into one of the Index Astartes articles. A majority of Codices and Rulebooks inform us otherwise, though.

 

By all means, feel free to provide citation!

 

We already know that a certain Index Astartes article proves otherwise, but here's what I found:

 

During this period [i.e. the time after Guilliman had joined with his legion and expanded from Macragge with the 12th expedition fleet - a time when Horus had already conquered half of the galaxy at the side of the emperor (remember Horus was found first, Roboute only 7th and on the other side of the galaxy)], the Ultramarines, by some records, succeeded in liberating more worlds than any other single Primarch's forces, and the planets Roboute Guilliman brought within the Imperium always benefitted from his intense passion for efficient and ordered government. (HH 5 p. 79)

 

He suceeded in liberating more worlds during the Great Crusade than any other Primarch (C:SM 5th ed. p. 13)

 

Cut off to the galactic south for the majority of the war, Guilliman’s warriors had seen less fighting than most. Thanks to their minimal casualties and rapid rate of recruitment, the Ultramarines soon numbered over half of all the Space Marines that stood in Humanity’s defence. (C:SM 7th ed. p. 17)

 

To me it seems quite obvious that "liberating" does not necessarily mean the same as "conquering" or "bringing to compliance":

 

He liberated countless worlds from the domination of aliens and foul Chaos renegades, but where some of his brother Primarchs left a trail of death and destruction in their wake, Roboute brought peace and fresh prosperity. Every world the Ultramarines liberated rapidly took its place amongst those loyal to the Imperium, and Guilliman's genius for planning campaigns ensured that the planet's population and industry suffered the minimum amount of collateral damage. (IA UM)

 

In regards to the number of conquests and victories (i.e. actual warfare), the Sons of Horus were unrivalled.

 

Guilliman only "liberated", i.e. peacefully and economically integrated the most planets - the Ultramarines were used to clean up the mess Horus left behind! 

[Legatus]

By all means, feel free to provide citation!

 

Avec plaisir!

 

1995 - (2nd Edition) Codex Ultramarines, p. 12:

"[Guilliman's] chief talents, as ever, lay in war, and he soon led the Ultramarines to fresh conquests in the galactic south. He succeeded in liberating more worlds during the Great Crusade than any other Primarch, and the worlds he brought within the Imperium were to benefit from his organisational skills and passion for efficient government.

Whenever Roboute Guilliman freed a world from the tyranny of Orks, Chaos or other aliens, his first priority was to set uo a self-supporting defence system. Once a world was safe he could move on, leaving behind enough advisers to ensure that industry would be created, trading routes set up with the Imperium, and government directed towards the prosperity of the people. In this way the Ultramarines could conquer worlds faster than any other Space Marine Legion."

 

2002 - (3rd Edition) Index Astartes Sons of Horus, 'Beliefs':

"The overriding belief of the Legion prior to the Warmaster's demise was in the ultimate superiority of Horus and themselves. In continually seeking to prove themselves as the greatest Legion, they did indeed achieved most in terms of sheer number of worlds brought into the Imperial fold prior to the Heresy."

 

2008 - (5th Edition) Codex Space Marines, p. 13:

"Guilliman's chief talents, as ever, lay in war, and he led the Ultramarines to fresh conquests in the galactic south. succeeded in liberating more worlds during the Great Crusade than any other Primarch, and the worlds he brought within the Imperium were to benefit from his organisational skills and passion for efficient government."

 

2012 - (6th Edition) Warhammer 40,000 Rulebook, p. 187:

"From the fledgling days of the Imperium, when they liberated more planets during the Great Crusade than any other Legion, to more recently, when they alone held the foe at bay at the beginning of the Tyrannic Wars, the Ultramarines have covered themselves in glory."

 

2014 - (7th Edition) Warhammer 40,000 Background Book, 'Space Marines - Ultramarines':

"From the fledgling days of the Imperium, when they liberated more planets during the Great Crusade than any other Legion, to more recently, when they alone held the foe at bay at the beginning of the Tyrannic Wars, the Ultramarines have covered themselves in glory."

 

How Forgeworld described both Legions' achievements:

 

HH1: Betrayal, p. 68-69:

"[The Luna Wolves'] victories were manifold and Horus' generalship was legend, and so it was that the respect of their brother Legions rose to almost unrivalled heights. (...)

Horus' charisma and unequalled record lent him a measure of respect unrivalled among his brother Primarchs (...)

Horus was said by some to be without peer beneath the Emperor."

 

HH5: Tempest, p. 79:

"During this period, the Ultramarines, by some records, succeeded in liberating more worlds than any other single Primarch's forces, and the planets Roboute Guilliman brought within the Imperium always benefitted from his intense passion for efficient and ordered government."

 

 

As far as I know the passage from the 1995 Codex Ultramarines is the first claim for a Legion to have liberated or conquered the most. It is worth noting that the description not only makes such a claim, but also explains the exact means of how they were able to accomplish it. Also note how "liberating" worlds and "conquering" worlds (or "freing" them)is used interchangeably. Makes sense, since both impliy a military conflict in order to claim the world for the Imperium. The difference is that "liberation" implies that the people were glad and waiting for it, while "conquering" could also include worlds that were resentful after being taken for the Imeperium. I suspect the different phrases are used in that text for the sake of variety.

 

The Index Astartes article of the Sons of Horus then made a different claim. I find it worth pointing out that both this article as well as the Alpha Legion article were both written by teh same author, who as far as I can see had never produced anything else for GW. Both the Sons of Horus and the Alpha Legion article seem to display a certain lack of familiarity with the lore of the Ultramarines. The Sons of Horus article claims, contrary to the previous source (and later sources) that it was the Sons of Horus who "brought the most worlds into the Imperial fold". The Alpha Legion Index Astartes article described the Codex doctrine as "anathema to Alpharius' ideas of adaptability and initiative" (whereas previous sources had noted the Codex's encouraging of initiative and described the Ultramarines as the most flexible of all the Chapters), implies that the Ultramarines have trouble coping with dense mountainous terrain (the kind of terrain where their fortress monastery on Macragge is located, and the kind of terrain where Roboute Guilliman fought his very first, brilliant, campaign), and states that the Ultramarines Legion and the Alpha Legion have "of course" very similar numbers of Thunderhawk Gunships, so none could gain an aerial superiority on Eskrador (even though the Ultramarines are famously the by far largest and an excellently supplied Legion). So even before later sources would once again state that the Ultramarines liberated the most worlds I found the Sons of Horus article a bit dubious.

 

The 5th Edition Codex Space Marines repeats the segment from the 2nd Edition Codex Ultramarines, but regrettably omits the explanation of how the Legion was able to conquer worlds faster than the other Legions.

 

The 6th and 7th Edition Rulebook passages are the same, and not very elaborate. They are quite explicite in their claim though.

 

In Tempest, FW was careful to downplay the accomplishments of the Ultramarines. There are almost no direct comparisons to their performance compared to the performance of other Legions, as were often found in older sources. The passage about them liberating the most worlds is taken from 2nd Edition, but it is weakened by qualifying that this claim was only made "by some reports".

On the other hand, the praise for the Sons of Horus is not quite as unequivocal either, their reputation being qualified as  "said by some" or "almost unrivalled".

 

 

It would be an omission to not mention the passage about who achieved the "most victories", which first appeared in the 2nd Edition Codex Angels of Death (p. 67) and was repeated in almost every other Codex Dark Angels thereafter:

 

"If Jonson was quiet he was also brave and a mighty leader of men. During the Great Crusade only he and Horus achieved a greater tally of victories than Russ. Russ, ever concerned with his honour and good name, and ever keen to tell the noble saga of his deeds, found this exasperating."

 

So apparently there is a difference between the amount of victories achieved and the worlds liberated. Every destroyed alien fleet, and every vanquished alien world would be a victory, but not an additional liberated world. Similarly, if an already liberated world was attacked by xenos and had to be defended, that too would be another victory, but not another liberated world. Since the Ultramarines were said to ensure that their liberated worlds were well defended, and on the other hand the worlds the Sons of Horus liberated were described as often with destroyed infrastructure and military or rebellious elements left (SoH IA), the Sons of Horus would have had to revisit their liberated worlds for additional fighting on more occasions than the Ultramarines would have had to.

I should perhaps also mention that the Space Wolves Codices since 2nd Edition have given a very different explanation for the two Primarch's animosity.

[Lord Blackwood]

Topic ?  Nah we dont stay on topic when the ultramarines are called into question !  

[Slips]

I think it's safe to say we're done here for the moment.