How Long Should the Insurrection Last?

[Slips]

Split the Vote into brackets for a bit more flexibility in terms of overall length of time.

 

You can only vote once so make it count!

[MikhalLeNoir]

Lol, what happens, if we have an even decission?

[Slips]

We roll a D6 (or a D4 in this current scenario)

Edited March 10, 2016 by Slipstreams

[Skalpynock]

Lol, what happens, if we have an even decission?

Simison rolls a dice, as every time we had a point that needed to be settled.

[AlphariusOmegon108]

Not more then 30 years to be honesg

[Sigismund229]

Personally I think 15 years would be a more realistic time frame...

[simison]

Before I cast my vote, there's one person I'd like to hear from. Most of the criticisms for the Insurrection lasting longer than a decade or two hinge on one Primarch failing to maintain discipline. And that's Raktra. So, before I make a vote, I want to hear what Raktra thinks about how Raktra would handle an extended Insurrection.

[bluntblade]

Alpharius' input would be welcome too. Especially if Alexos will actually be working on quite a different tangent to Icarion. I mean, much more so than Horus and Lorgar.

[MikhalLeNoir]

Not more then 30 years to be honesg

He did already ;)

[bluntblade]

D'oh

[Chief Captain Redd]

I think the Insurection for sure needs a bigger time frame because we're not dealing with such a clean cut division like the Heresy, I'm in favor of thirty years or there about.

[Athrawes]

I tend to agree with the 25-30 year crowd. It doesn't hurt anything we have already come up with (It also makes Raktra ascending more dramatic if Icarion spends the first several years of the Insurrection trying to maintain order amongst the bloodthirstier legions.) and gives us more time to play up the ideological difference of this war vs. cannon.

Edited March 11, 2016 by Athrawes

[Raktra]

I've given Sim a rundown of how I envisioned things going for Raktra. I'm in the longer camp too, seeing as we end up with the three-way split.

[simison]

To elaborate on Raktra's post, although the BoU are undoubtedly are Khorne legion, they aren't just clones of the World Eaters. They have a different approach to butchery that is more clinical and showcases a different kind of cruelty. Instead of simply slaughtering people with overwhelming rage and force, they search for weaknesses in their opponents and strike where it'll do the most damage. That entails at least some level of discipline and patience that not only Raktra is capable of, but so is Khorne.

 

With that in mind, I voted for 25-30 years, and, ironically, that pushed it into first place. Two days have already passed, and most of us have already voted, so I'm declaring this poll closed. 

 

The exact year I will leave to whatever is the most symbolic or to a random roll of a die if we can't agree on it.

[Kelborn]

Ok, let's compare the facts:

 

Canon vs BotL

7 years of war with 18 legions included from Istvaan on to the siege of terra

multiple sub plots included like the Unremembered Empire, etc.

Great Crusade lasted for 2 centuries

 

BotL

Great Crusade lasted way more

18 legions as well but bigger than the canon legions

multiple sub plots as well as multiple factions with different goals, etc.

 

I voted for 25-30 years as well. Mainly for the reasons above: longer Crusade, bigger Legions, more sub plots and factions

Furthermore have a look on what FW did. 7 years of HH is covered in 6 books by now with more to come. Logically we would need way more books to cover all plots, etc. but I don't think that we will do this as this would take decades. ^^

 

Although it sounds like a very long lapse of time, it really is not. Because of all the sub factions with all kind of motives, moves and backgrounds, it will take at least 2 years until the whole Imperium would be at war.

 

And don't forget the Xenos scum like Orks, Eldar, etc. They are still out there and want to wage war against mankind. ;)

 

Furthermore if I may use a historical example. Second world war took 6 years in total on one planet. Way more planets, way more soldiers, way more battles mean way more time.

 

35 to 40 years would even make more sense but that would be too long I guess.

[Hesh Kadesh]

One thing that strikes me is the sheer scale of things. It took 13 years for an unmanned space probe to travel 80% of the way to Pluto, and 27 years to reach Termination shock, and that is using gravitational assists to slingshot. Basically, 100 AU in 30 years, or 4 months to travel to the sun. It is literally that big a scale. While the interstellar travel can be accounted for via Warp Travel, if as most seem to suggest, arriving at the safe jump points outside of the system means thst there is still a huge amount of distance to travel. Even in 200 years and split over 72 fleets (each legion split into 4 big ones), and assuming one system of average 4 planets per year conquered, that is still a huge amount; a quick google tells me that 'tens of billions' of systems exist. Even using a million as a habitable estimate means that they wpukd need to make 70 Great Crusades to conquer a million worlds, or 14000 years. That is on a million.

 

This is space. It's huge.

[Grifftofer]

That 7 year "Lightning strike at the heart of the Imperium" is sounding much more realistic now. Eh? :P

[bluntblade]

While we're talking about complicating factors, Sim has the Interex in negotiations with the Imperium around the time that the Insurrection breaks out. What's going to happen with them?

[Demus Ragnok]

One thing that strikes me is the sheer scale of things. It took 13 years for an unmanned space probe to travel 80% of the way to Pluto, and 27 years to reach Termination shock, and that is using gravitational assists to slingshot. Basically, 100 AU in 30 years, or 4 months to travel to the sun. It is literally that big a scale. While the interstellar travel can be accounted for via Warp Travel, if as most seem to suggest, arriving at the safe jump points outside of the system means thst there is still a huge amount of distance to travel. Even in 200 years and split over 72 fleets (each legion split into 4 big ones), and assuming one system of average 4 planets per year conquered, that is still a huge amount; a quick google tells me that 'tens of billions' of systems exist. Even using a million as a habitable estimate means that they wpukd need to make 70 Great Crusades to conquer a million worlds, or 14000 years. That is on a million.

 

This is space. It's huge.

Yeah but there were thousands of fleets most without legion support.

 

But the galaxy is a big place.

[simison]

While we're talking about complicating factors, Sim has the Interex in negotiations with the Imperium around the time that the Insurrection breaks out. What's going to happen with them?

 

The Interex, given the timeline, is essentially a protectorate state in the Imperium. The biggest barrier in the canon negotiations (minus Erebus' backstabbery) was the knowledge of Chaos lacking by Horus and the Imperium diplomats. Here, Chaos is recognized (although not fully understood) which removes that barrier to the point where Alex is able to successfully conclude negotiations. They enter into a piecemeal compliance and are on the verge of becoming fully integrated when Icarion goes rogue.

 

Since Alex personally brings them into the Imperium, I'd think they side with Loyalists, or they will defect during the Insurrection when they catch wind of the Chaos worship going on. 

 

Also, I have a half-developed idea that Alex uses their xeno connection to try to establish new alliances to fend off the Insurrectionists. 

Edited March 16, 2016 by simison

[bluntblade]

I can roll with all of that. A battle with those sagittars would be great fun.

[simison]

Inspired by Sig's last piece about Triumph City, I've been thinking over the changes we've made to the timeline so far. If 'A Sound of Thunder' has taught me anything, it is that a few minute changes/decisions can pay dividends that are multiplied as time goes on.

 

Now, I still want to avoid any detail writing of anything past the end of the Insurrection. After all, Book 1 still hasn't passed the rough draft phase, so I don't want to tempt the project into throwing time and energy at anywhere else. That said, I think to have a better grip on how the Insurrection plays out and what are some of the consequences of it, we need to have a stronger outline of events pre-, mid-, and post-Insurrection.

 

Here are a few big questions:

1. How close was the Great Crusade to being accomplished, both in canon and BotL? This question is partially about what the context & locations of the Day of Revelation ambushes, but also about the overall tone of the GC and the legions. From what I remember in canon, the GC was proceeding at a steady place, but the end wasn't in sight. What if it was in BotL? What if Alexandros looked at the map and was able to outright say, "Just another couple of decades, guys! Great work!" This sounds optimistic, but it has two dark undertones. One, it makes the Insurrection that much more tragic, for the Imperium's victory to be ripped out of its hands right as it could see the finish line. Two, what about the legions obsessed with war, like the Void Eagles, the Berserkers, etc? There is still a floating canon theory that the Emperor's endgame involved executing the Primarchs and the legions, just like the Thunder Warriors. I personally don't agree with the theory, but that doesn't mean that lingering question could be hovering in the back of, say, Raktra's mind. He lives to kill, maim, and murder. How would he react to news that his job is about to hit a dead period? (Pun intended.) He may be able to handle a 5-year break from war, but what about 10 years? 100? 1,000? Some Primarchs may join the Insurrection bandwagon because they don't want to see the Great Crusade end.
2. What is the state of the Imperial Webway? Unlike in canon, the Emperor makes a serious amount of progress. I don't think BL or FW has ever given us idea of how far the Webway extended. Maybe it extended to the rest of the solar system. Maybe it could reach the neighboring stars. Take that, and now add an additional 40 years to it. How much of the galaxy could it theoretically reach? Thanks to the Eldar, we know Webways don't simply collapse if the origin point breaks. This could add an entire new dimension of the Loyalist defense. The reason for a 'Maginot Line' is because that's at the outer reaches of the Imperial Webway and what allows Alexandros to shift legions at a moment's notice. And, this is all information he learns, only after the Emperor tells him, post-breach. Now, even in this scenario, probably very little of the Webway survives the Insurrection since Alexandros would order access points to be destroyed as Icarion advances. But pieces of it could last past the Insurrection, offering ideas of potential Warp-free zones. Maybe one of the surviving Pariah legions is designated as Webway guardians and routinely patrol and defend the few remaining passages. 
3. What does the Golden Throne actually do besides acting like a super stasis machine and is how the Emperor begins constructing the Imperial Webway?
4. Do we need to revise the legion numbers to account for this new length of time? I think, at the very least, the numbers need a small buff to represent the new Great Crusade's length.
5. What are some ideas of how the xenos would get involved (no Cabal nonsense)? I've already made it clear that Alex, as a Pro-xeno, is more than willing to bend current laws in order to keep the Imperium afloat, and will enlist Eldar allies under extenuating circumstances. I have an idea of both Icarion and Alex using their powers of divination to manipulate Orks into throwing WAAAGHS! into each other's territory. What are some other ideas? 

 

Again, I blame Sig for all of this thinking.

[MikhalLeNoir]

As I planned to outline the connection to the laughing God and his servants more and Gwal vanishes in the Webway after the Insurrection, I could see the Wardens of Light or a followup order as guardians of the imperial webway as they hope to find Gwalchavad.

 

The Lady of the lake is a eldar and resides in Avalon on Caerbannog. I bet she will be used as a connection.

 

How about the Eldar helping actively? But they are forbidden in terra. But they could have a mire active role.

And what dies this alliance bring in the future? Does it stay or will it be forgottrn as humanity often forgets the good and sees only the bad and this would be: xenos who are not humans are evil.

Oh tyranids? I bet they are creatures of the eldar.orks raided a planet? That was xenos ergo all xenos bad etc.

 

I like the idea with the crusade nearing an end and the peace ripped from the hands of humanity.

 

How much more marines? Or just using more imperial guard soldiers and marines get at the late grusade more the specialist role? So the numbers could remain.

Edited March 20, 2016 by MikhalLeNoir

[bluntblade]

The Golden Throne is essentially an amplifier for psychic power, if my memory serves. As for the Webway, I thought it simply got swarmed with daemons rather than destroyed.

 

We have Mortarion referring to a time "when xenos still stood between our father and the Galaxy's edge." But there's a huge portion of the Galaxy that the canon Crusade never got its teeth into. I don't know what the rate of conquest would be, mind.

 

I can't buy the "kill 'em off" theory. Partly as I imagine Big E would have an inkling about such things as the Tyranids or at least the possibility of new/old xenos threats. Nonetheless, we do know that Sigismund and Loken had thought about what would happen next. There'll always be a few dreamers talking about the next galaxy, I reckon.

 

One other thought... Are anyone's views on Alex going to change over four decades? That's a long time for a man to grow into a role.

[Sigismund229]

Lovely to know my writing is valued :p

 

1. For this question I'm not really sure. In the canon I got the impression the Crusade was nowhere near over but in our verse I feel it should be nearing completion for some primarchs(Alexandros, Gwal) while others(Yucahu, Raktra) simply view one stage of it as ending while their task is now to carry humanity beyond the borders of this galaxy into others. Although, if I'm honest, I share Sigismund's view that the Great Crusade would never truly end and that as soon as it's "over" the astartes will spend the rest of their lives fighting to keep the Imperium they created in tact.

2. I don't think the webway should be complete enough for usage tbh. Just for me I think that would detract somewhat from the mystic of the Eldar and fundamental feel of the Imperium. As for redeploying quickly: beacons anybody?

3. Bling?

4. Well actually I've been meaning to revise the CL's numbers for a quite a while now(given they were 95,000 strong at purging and that was the 130th year of the Great Crusade I now think my estimates were a bit off...).

5. I deffinatelty think the Eldar should get involved, with something this big I don't really see how they can keep out. Alex and Icarion throwing ork WAAAGH!'s at each other is a bit far fetched though I think... How about Icarion using xenos incursions into Imperial space as an opportunity to play the hero and build up a good public image? He's just rebelled after all so he'll need all the PR stunts he can get.