How Long Should the Insurrection Last?

[bluntblade]

More numbers for the Clans, Sigi?

 

I don't think that it needs to be a black-and-white view of the Crusade being "complete". Views could just differ on which stage comes next.

[simison]

Mikhal, I do like the foundation of that idea of Gwal disappearing into the Webway and the Wardens of Light trying to find him, while maintaining the routes clear for Imperial use. In that use, the 'Light' moniker almost becomes literal given all of the Webway shiny. As for the Eldar, I'm being cautious right now and keeping it open. At the very least, I imagine Alex 'hiring' Eldrad's forces for hit-and-run strikes against Insurrectionists, perhaps with a Slaanesh focus. How much more beyond that? Not sure, I want to get an idea of what are the limits of the others in that regard. Where it goes past the Insurrection? Not sure. What won't happen, I guarantee it, is the Eldar and the Humans joining together in mutual harmony. Also, Tyranids have been vetoed before. They will have to wait until 40k to make an appearance in BotL.

 

blunt, maybe. I like to think that the area 'behind' the breach was simply collapsed by the Custodians caught on that side. There might be a short story there, if you want, blunt. As to the changing views of Alex, I can't say for the others, but I did have it change for the standard humans. The longer Alex is the Warmaster, the more good he is able to do and the greater the loyalty of the populace is to to the Emperor. Unlike in the Heresy, fewer worlds outright fall into civil war or declare for Icarion, which is a reason why Icarion's conquest goes slowly. It's like in Total War Shogun 2: Fall of the Samurai. Most of the 'provinces' have lived well under the Emperor, that Icarion has to take a place and spend some time to switch it from Pro-Emperor to Pro-'Stormlord'. It takes time, and, consequently, the Scouring can become nastier because of it since the Loyalists have to rebuild loyalty from scratch, again. (Also, can you tell what game I've been playing lately?)

 

Sig, that's another good xeno idea, the one about Icarion trying to build PR. As for the Webway, I'm thinking just bits and pieces. Maybe one line goes from Planet A to Planet B, small-scale stuff like that, while the majority of it is inoperable post-Insurrection.

 

In general, I feel like the legions should get a 10% increase in size, bare minimum. 50% at maximum. 

 

Also, I want to re-emphasize that I don't buy the 'kill 'em all' theory, but the more cynical/bloodthirsty primarchs might not react well to the GC nearing its end, for a couple of interesting narrative ideas. Or maybe a few brief mentions. We still need to pinpoint the Ambush sites.

[Sigismund229]

The webway only working in small sections I could see working. Thinking about it, that makes room for it to become less and less understood amd more ritualistic as time goes on

[MikhalLeNoir]

I meant the tyranids not to be in the insurrection. It was an example of racism^^

 

Well for the size then: I think the wardens habe then 180k at the outbreak of the insurection and when they reenter about 210 k. As they had plenty of time. Is that realistic?

 

Well although Alex improves in his role as warmaster, we still habe a time of war and heavy toll on the imperial citizens. So usually if there is war, al people souffer in some way( technologically, food short etc) hoe is this in the insurrection? Caise if people suffer, they view those eho are on top often with caution. Rumorss are spread etc( I would do that in Icarions place: spread false rumors of alex and his allies as warmongers who habe a good life on cost of the imperial citizens, stsrt a revolt jere, an uprising there)

 

So after 30 years of war he could be a bit fatigued.

Edited March 20, 2016 by MikhalLeNoir

[bluntblade]

We should also discuss Alexos' role in all this, I think, and when the Prosecution happens

[Athrawes]

I fall into the "not a big fan of xenos playing a larger role" camp.

 

The Emperor is all about securing the galaxy for humanity, just because a few of his chosen primarchs are softer on xenos doesn't change the ultimate vision of the Emperor. After 240 years, and assuming that you want the BotL Great crusade to be nearing it's end. Most all credible xenos threats should have a been eradicated. That is the explanation for why xenos didn't play a role in cannon heresy, and I think the state of xenos would/should be even more dire in BotL universe. If the great Crusade is almost over, Xenos should be nearly wiped out on the galactic scale. 

 

Even the Eldar who are perhaps the most human friendly xenos must loath humanity for 240 years of Legion led exterminations. 

 

I don't feel like Xenos have any place for alliances or active participation in the Insurrection.

 

 

++++

 

 

As for the webway I'm unsure.

 

I'm of the mindset that it should be neutral ground/mostly off limits from military activity, with some room for "cheating."  In the cannons universe Icarion oversaw The first attempts at building the Imperial Webway, In BotL he would have had an additional 140 years of expanding The Imperial webway. But I don't think that Icarion or the Emperor want to turn the webway into a battleground. 

 

For both the of them, the webway represents ultimate victory. Icarion doesnt care about the chaos gods plans, their power is tool to help him kill the emperor and free humanity, but once the emperor is dead and Icarion has the Imperium, he'd want to finish the webway to lock chaos out for good. 

 

No obviously his views change towards the end of the war, but that is his mindset at the outset and for most of the Insurrection. 

 

With that in mind, and to help us from complicating our universe too much with webway shenanigans, why don't we write about and unspoken "treaty" between Icarion and the Emperor to leave the Webway out of the fighting. It is part of the ultimate prize, the winner controls the webway for humanity. Then as the war darkens, and chaos takes hold of the Insurrection, the neutrality is throne to the wind.

 

The biggest reason I can think of to go this route is that Icarion needs a clear, uninterrupted route through the webway between Madrigal and Terra to use in the endgame when he flees to Terra.

[bluntblade]

That all makes plenty of sense to me.

[MikhalLeNoir]

Never forget: the enemy of my enemy is my friend. A

And of course: keep your friends close. And your enemies even closer.

 

I can see at least a small role for the eldar. Even if they are near extinguished by humanity, if it goes against Slaaneesh, they might jump over their shadow. They won't fight on terra, but Alex using them to attack certain goals is not that far off. What is better that to stop slaaneesh plan? To stoo slaanesh plan and kill some monkeighs who nearly killed our race.

 

But keep it small. Main focus is of course on humanity. Just a risk little glimpse.

 

About the webway: makes sense to keep it intact and out of the fighting. Except for the battle between Icarion and Alex.

Edited March 20, 2016 by MikhalLeNoir

[Kelborn]

Kinda like the idea of a neutral ground between Big E and Icarion.

 

Makes sense as both want to use it to get rid of the Warp travel.

 

Well, if the Eldar are nearly extinguished because of the Great Crusade, what about Orks?

As there are plenty more Orks than any other race, there should be a significant number left or not?

Please don't get me wrong. I don't want to write some Ork smashs Imperium shenanigans. I'm only interested in the rest of potential threats.

 

And what about the Necrons? Do they still have their after-lunch nap?  Oh, I forgot the Dark Eldar...

 

hm...that's something I should've asked in the General Discussion...let's see if I can find a reason to post it here....

 

We could mention the status of the most powerful xenos in a small red box or something like that.

Great Crusade was so long that the threat of the Eldar race was nearly annihilated. Only a handful of Craftworlds and planets remain in their hands. With every passing year, another part of the Webway is conquered by the Emperor's forces. The Dark Eldar's remaining domain, Commoragh currently being sieged.

 

Furthermore it could give one of our major battles a plot twist.

Example:

Wardens of Light + Crimson Lions vs. Berserkers of Uran and Void Eagles

long lasting fight with numerous casualties on both sides

then

WAAAAAAGGGHHH!!!! Skullsucka drops from the warp and engages the Berserkers ('cause they want to mess with the best in close combat). Traitor forces are driven off.

 

Nothing big but they could be of use.

[Sigismund229]

We also shouldn't forget xenos like the kinebrach who are integrated into the Imperium(in this case because the Interex were given vassal state rathern than conquered state status)

[bluntblade]

Ah, Kelborn, Void Eagles are loyal I think.

[Kelborn]

Oh...really? Sorry. Mixed them up. ^^"

 

Just take another traitor Legion, ok?

[bluntblade]

Hey, don't worry. I mix up the Stalkers and Walkers most of the time. Never mind Kozja and Koschei.

 

Btw Sigi, I think we might need to trim the names starting with T among the Lions.

[MikhalLeNoir]

Not before you built Mr.T. ( Of course Chuck Norris is a Warden of Light^^)

[Kelborn]

Of course he is a Warden....pfft. ;)

 

And what of Bud Spencer and Terrence Hill?

Iron Bear and Berserker? ^^

Edited March 21, 2016 by Kelborn

[MikhalLeNoir]

Bear and halycon warden as terrence hill is so cocky

[bluntblade]

I missed that bit about a potential story. Well, the one I set up with Aquillon watching the nightmare kick off has to go somewhere.

[simison]

Fair points on the xenos. It slipped my mind that with the Great Crusade covering more ground that the xenos would be reduced in size and strength (and perhaps we've eliminated a few of the minor species the canon GC failed to do). Anybody familiar with Necron lore, can you explain to me what or who starts waking them up in 40k? 

 

I can see the 'neutral Webway' idea working. Actually, how do you feel if it was made official, Athrawes? To show how the Insurrection is different than the Heresy, perhaps Icarion sends a message to Alexandros asking the Webway be put off-limits due to the reasons you mentioned. Or maybe they do meet in person. Could be an interesting short story.

[Kelborn]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but some Necrons woke up because of a excavation.

Some of those Necrons started a campaign to wake the rest of them up and to subjugate them for their own cause.

Therefore we have a handful of very powerful Necron Overlords in canon 40k.

 

Otherwise have a look over here:

http://warhammer40.wikia.com/wiki/Necrons#The_Great_Awakening

[simison]

Hmm, in that case, it wouldn't be too much of a stretch for them to remain undiscovered during the GC or the Insurrection. That said, their discovery would happen much earlier than 40k. *puts them back on the shelf*

 

The Dark Eldar, I'm not sure. With a stronger Imperium, they'd have fewer successful raids, but was the GC in a position to assault the Dark City (whose name escapes me)?

 

The Eldar might have loss over half the Maiden worlds, how many craftworlds have been destroyed in canon?

 

Orks have been pushed back into the Galactic fringes, but with them, it's all or nothing, so they'll be back in due time.

 

Did I just wipe out the Tau? The Kroot?

 

Anyone I'm missing?

[Kelborn]

Nope.

That should be all of the big ones.

Tau + Kroot are of no concern in 30k. Tau were discovered in M36 as a very primitive race.

 

Necron still sleeping - ok

Dark Eldar - can be reduced to Commoragh -> no big threat anymore - ok

Eldar - nearly extinct - ok

Orks - well, would need a hell lot of time to push them back towards the galactic fringes but as you said: all or nothing

 

Hey! Our own the Beast Arises! xD

[simison]

Indeed, that's something that can we do later. Eldrad's meeting with Alex comes off as more desperate now that the Eldar have been further pushed toward the edge of extinction. And the Tau avoid annihilation by being late-comers. 

 

It really does look like that the Eldar might play the only xeno role in the Insurrection, and it's going to be a very minor one. Which it sounds like most people prefer, so win-win.

 

Back to the other topics: where are the ambushes? I think the Bear one is in the Ghoul Stars, right? 

 

So, the Golden Throne is a psychic amplifier. In canon, Magnus wrecks it when he storms the Throne room, does Travier's attack do the same kind of damage?

 

Lastly, I'm adding 40k more marines to the Wardens' numbers. 10% as a base, the other 10% representing efficient recruiting options from garrisoned worlds. (Had not intended on the pun.)

[Sigismund229]

The Kroot might still have existed and they're certainly close enough to where the Imperium historically reached on the Eastern Fringe to have been encountered by Imperial Forces although I remember reading in one of the older White Dwarfs that, prior to their conquest by the Tau empire, the Kroot kept their species going by serving as mercenaries with other armies and Imperial commanders weren't too fussy about using them so it's possible they were just contained and used as mercenaries by the Imperium(I mean, I see no reason why the Imperium, depending on who it was who encountered the Kroot, would refuse extra soldiers and simply save annihilating the Kroot for a later date when the GC was over).

 

As far as the Eldar I could see them trying to play a double game with the Imperials and the Renegades, helping both directly or indirectly in order to stop the Imperium's expansion and save themselves at the same times as fighting chaos, so their direct role would be very small but they might indirectly have an enormous influence on the fate of the Imperium. I could also see them using the confusion to try and destroy/stop all human research and progress towards using the webway to keep it an Eldar only means of transport. Or maybe I'm trying to be to devious. 

 

As for the orks...they're just the orks. 

[simison]

For the Eldar, I imagine them responding to the Insurrection in 4 major themes, tied to the major craftworlds. 

 

Biel-Tan represents the Eldar faction that still believe they can turn the future around for their species. In truth, if we do destroy a craftworld, this is the most likely one since they have dubbed themselves the defenders of the Exodite & Maiden worlds. They see the Insurrection as a glorious opportunity to push back the Imperials close to the few Eldar worlds remaining during this time.

 

Ulthwé is represented by Eldrad and the pragmatic faction. Seeking to hold back Chaos and survive, they'll only side with the Imperium when corruption sets in the Storm Empire's forces (not official name), and even then, they do everything they can to extract as much as they can out of Alex for their services.

 

Saim-Hann is the devil-may-care faction, attacking anyone they wish. They'll be a random element in the Insurrection.

 

Alaitoc and Iyanden represent the neutral faction, just trying to stay out of the way of danger. 

 

Although it is unlikely for Eldar to fight Eldar, we do have conflicting strategies, so the Eldar's impact on the Insurrection will be nullified to a degree by disagreement within. 

Edited March 21, 2016 by simison

[Sigismund229]

For the Eldar, I imagine them responding to the Insurrection in 4 major themes, tied to the major craftworlds. 

 

Biel-Tan represents the Eldar faction that still believe they can turn the future around for their species. In truth, if we do destroy a craftworld, this is the most likely one since they have dubbed themselves the defenders of the Exodite & Maiden worlds. They see the Insurrection as a glorious opportunity to push back the Imperials close to the few Eldar worlds remaining during this time.

 

Ulthwé is represented by Eldrad and the pragmatic faction. Seeking to hold back Chaos and survive, they'll only side with the Imperium when corruption sets in the Storm Empire's forces (not official name), and even then, they do everything they can to extract as much as they can out of Alex for their services.

 

Saim-Hann is the devil-may-care faction, attacking anyone they wish. They'll be a random element in the Insurrection.

 

Alaitoc and Iyanden represent the neutral faction, just trying to stay out of the way of danger. 

 

Although it is unlikely for Eldar to fight Eldar, we do have conflicting strategies, so the Eldar's impact on the Insurrection will be nullified to a degree by disagreement within. 

Eldar fighting Eldar I agree is a big no no, even for those craftworlds who have zero :cusss left to give. 

 

The only part of that I'd disagree with is Saim-Hann being a wildcard. Yes, they wouldn't act favourably towards either faction more than the other but they're still going to act in what are perceived as Eldar interests. That would include destroying the human entries into the webway and really anything relating to human use of the webway as it wouldn't be in any way a good thing for the Eldar if the humans figured out how to use it and I could see Alaitoc and Iyanden doing the same.