How Long Should the Insurrection Last?

[simison]

Dark, indeed. And Gwal is supposed to be one of the nice ones. 

[Sigismund229]

Dark, indeed. And Gwal is supposed to be one of the nice ones. 

So's Hec and he has a deamon melded with his soul. I think it's fairly safe to say very few of the BotL primarchs could be classified as "nice"

[MikhalLeNoir]

Well. Now he is a nice guy:) more emphasis on the peace on canonverse and a little blend of dark in the broverse;) (that happens if you cut his meditation times by thousamd years^^)

[Demus Ragnok]

What on terra would happen if you put a Pariah on the Golden Throne?

Black light?

I don't think I want to know...

 

And as to Hec having to carry Gwal, is Hec going to be the only loyal primarch in reasonably good shape after Terra(i.e not dead or dying)?

No.

[simison]

 

What on terra would happen if you put a Pariah on the Golden Throne?

Black light?

I don't think I want to know...

 

And as to Hec having to carry Gwal, is Hec going to be the only loyal primarch in reasonably good shape after Terra(i.e not dead or dying)?

No.

 

 

Yucahu should be in good shape, I imagine, along with Azus. 

 

Unless that changes later.

[Grifftofer]

 

What on terra would happen if you put a Pariah on the Golden Throne?

Black light?

Instead of being a beacon that shines out, lighting the way. I would think of it as a point of infinite darkness, against which everything is visible by contrast. It would still be a fixed point for navigation, but I think warp travel would be interesting in different ways. Travel near to the astronomicon could be calmer due to the pariah influence, but navigators would need to be extra careful to not be drawn into the 'singularity' and consumed. I could also see the Navigator houses relocating elsewhere as proximity to a golden throne empowered pariah would likely prove more than uncomfortable for such as them.

[bluntblade]

Sorry to come back to this, but the amount of time Icarion spends preparing is bothering me somewhat from a dramatic perspective. If Icarion spends whole decades on his plans, it takes away from the urgency and believability of his motive (if the Emperor gets closer to godhood every day in Icarion's mind, he's taking a massive risk by waiting so long) and part if me feels that he can only do so much planning and purging. There's a limit to how many people he can involve and still maintain secrecy, and with that in mind it's questionable if the gains he makes are really worth investing all that time, especially when unlike Horus he will lose the loyalty of several Legions (I know that's not connected, but dramatically it's something to consider).

 

There is also the minor factor that it makes it harder to justify the presence of any mortal characters we introduce around the time of the Triumph.

[bluntblade]

Sim and I have discussed this some more, so I'd like to propose that Icarion's preparations span no more than a decade so that the extent of his machinations, the secrecy and the urgency with which he acts (he is moving to forestall the Emperor's evil scheme in his mind). This assumes of course that Travier plays a role leading him down the dark path.

 

I would be inclined to shorten the time before Icarion's shift too, but I won't jump the gun on that for now.

[Chief Captain Redd]

So going back to some of our base story the Day of Revelation actually covers and cures his initial paranoia. His first visions weren't of the big E but of Daer'dd and Iron Bears burning Madrigal and Daer'dd killing him. It's only after those visions and I think enacting those mechanations that he has his visions of the Emperor. I wanna say it was something like Alexos making him think Daer'dd was going to pull a Prospero on Madrigal, but I've been up for like two days and don't have my notes at hand. Because I am sure we've had this conversation before in our hundreds if not thousands of pages of text now.

[bluntblade]

I remember that Athrawes' base idea was that Icarion has a vision of the Burning of Madrigal, which could be prompted by Travier. Then the stuff with Daer'dd comes when he begins planning and starts trying to divine what will happen when he attempts his rebellion.

[Chief Captain Redd]

I still think a lot is answered in those first few years, especially if we belay the fact that maybe the concept of The God Emperor isn't why Icarion is doing this; he is jealous and malleable, so if the first bit it's Alexos pulling strings to burn his father's Empire asunder without letting Icarion know truly and fully what's going on; and then it becomes very Icarion the pawn as Horus is a pawn in that maybe Icarion needs more time to be brought to Chaos's side as he's fought them for so long unlike Horus. Who can just be like " your dad is lying he's hiding power from you he's a god, but we're gods to here's power if you kill your dad"

[simison]

I would be inclined to shorten the time before Icarion's shift too, but I won't jump the gun on that for now.

 

What times were you thinking?

[Sigismund229]

I agree with Redd. We should keep the Insurrection starting in 044. First Alexos needs to gain Icarion's trust, then introduce the idea of rebellion before Icarion starts putting together his Insurrection and purging his legions. All that takes time

[bluntblade]

Sim, I was thinking about a decade for that as well, maybe 15 years. Long enough for Alex to really amass support as Warmaster, but also long enough for Icarion to really feel the absence of the Emperor (does MoM clarify how far off they were with the Webway?) and the burden of supporting his brother.

 

There's taking time, but really, decades? Simply from the point of view of keeping some momentum going, I feel that's a little excessive and we lose some drama from that. Plus it raises the danger that something will leak if it takes that long.

 

It'd probably help if we establish the circumstances of the Madrigal vision. On the Alexos front, if Icarion's mentored him I see little reason for him not to trust Travier. And once there's a threat of Madrigal's destruction, it's a short step to "do you want to know why he's doing this?"

Edited December 4, 2016 by bluntblade

[bluntblade]

We need to specify a few things. Firstly, when does Icarion think the Emperor is going to have Madrigal razed? If he doesn't know when, doesn't that make everything more urgent? Second, what role does Alexos play here? Do we have an equivalent to the Word Bearers' apostles?

 

Also, a broader idea for the purges; even as Icarion uses the lodges to win over potential allies, he uses his role to have Lightning Bearers forces assigned to warzones with Legions he is seeking to convert. As well as diplomatic roles, they can also help to eliminate potential holdouts.

[Nomus Sardauk]

And once there's a threat of Madrigal's destruction, it's a short step to "do you want to know why he's doing this?"

I imagine Travier could sell Icarion the idea that the Lightning Bearers were doomed to be purged from the start, that the Emperor was ultimately always going to purge them with one simple reason; the Ghost Crusade.

 

The 1st were built to fight rogue psykers and the powers of the Warp from their very inception, save for Magnus's lost XIth no other legion was so replete with psykers and steeped in warpcraft as they, their very homeworld is periodically blanketed by the Warp! In the Emperor's eyes, the taint would always find it's way in eventually, even with Icarion's foresight and the precaution of the Silence Protocol the risk was simply too great, the First had to die.

 

Why else would the Emperor pass over his so-called "favoured son" for the title of Warmaster unless he knew Icarion would eventually have to be euthanised? He'd already covered up the deaths of two sons, would a third really be so unbelievable?

 

I reckon this line of reasoning would hit Icarion deeply, it would make far too much sense to him to deny. And then Alexos, having shattered Icarion's faith with the metaphorical pickaxe of horrific truth, offers him the one thing he craves, a way out. And the rest, as they say, is history...

[bluntblade]

I like that. A lot

[simison]

I was hoping AO would post before I would say anything, but that's one day gone. 

 

I think San's argument is rock solid and what we should go with. 

 

Thinking on how long Alex's reign as Warmaster lasts, I don't have strong feelings at keeping it at 044. I think it's a fair argument that length of time might stretch the believability that a third of humanity sides with Icarion. But I feel like 15 years is too short either. 

 

To be clear, were you suggesting that it was 15 years until Icarion's corruption and then another 10 years before the Day of Revelation, placing us around 025?

[bluntblade]

Yes

[simison]

I feel like there should be at least 20 years before Icarion gets corrupted, so we have one full generation under the Warmaster, which would help shift the human numbers to Alex's favor. So, adding the 10 years for the conspiracy, I'm thinking that the Day of Revelation is somewhere in the early 30s. How does that sound?

[bluntblade]

I can get behind that

[Chief Captain Redd]

I can second this.

[MikhalLeNoir]

And in order to not shorten the great crusade you can simply push the retunr of big e to terra a few years backwards

[bluntblade]

I think turn of the century still works

[simison]

I think turn of the century still works

 

I agree, there's no need to maintain the Great Crusade's current length. A decade won't mean that much difference either way.

 

000.M31 - Emperor retires to Terra/Alexandros appointed Warmaster

024.M31 - Travier successfully corrupts Icarion

031.M31 - Day of Revelation

058.M31 - Icarion slain, Alexandros slain, and Emperor suffers one heck of a knockout punch

 

This look good?

Edited December 7, 2016 by simison