b1soul Posted March 11, 2016 Share Posted March 11, 2016 Honestly, this would be the Imperium's worst nightmare short of the actual Heresy If you were the Emperor and Guilliman and his 500 worlds stepped way out of line (say insubordination that could not be tolerated), how would deal with it? I honestly think sending the mighty Vlka "We are the Sanction" Fenryka would not be enough...not by a long shot. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/320247-if-guilliman-had-turned/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
m0nolith Posted March 11, 2016 Share Posted March 11, 2016 I think one of the major premises of the Heresy that the whole Imperium was very much teetering on a knifes edge. I would make the argument if any of the Primarchs that stayed loyal had turned, it would have meant a victory for Horus' side. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/320247-if-guilliman-had-turned/#findComment-4333053 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calas Typhon Posted March 11, 2016 Share Posted March 11, 2016 Honestly, this would be the Imperium's worst nightmare short of the actual Heresy If you were the Emperor and Guilliman and his 500 worlds stepped way out of line (say insubordination that could not be tolerated), how would deal with it? I honestly think sending the mighty Vlka "We are the Sanction" Fenryka would not be enough...not by a long shot. Depends how effective head hunting teams are. If a pack manages to claim Robutes head, the codex would be non existent, the ultramarines would essentially be a big blob of marines with no grander vision unless Horus decides to chuck them into other Legions. I do not see the likes of Marius Gage turning, who would be next in line to lead if he had turned. That and they seem to be a Legion who take pride in the Imperium more so than others with Honour on the shelf, turning on said imperium would be hard to do without some absolute Lorgar esc corruption. I believe it would create a massive and I mean 70/30 split to the Emperor type split in the Legion. Its like saying, what would have happened if Perturabo and the Iron Warriors fortified Terra and the sol system instead of the Imperial Fists? really hard to tell. Either way, we know it would be a mess for the Loyalists whichever Loyal Primarch turned. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/320247-if-guilliman-had-turned/#findComment-4333058 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Hands Fanatic Posted March 11, 2016 Share Posted March 11, 2016 I think one of the major premises of the Heresy that the whole Imperium was very much teetering on a knifes edge. I would make the argument if any of the Primarchs that stayed loyal had turned, it would have mean victory for Horus' side. Yeah this is pretty much stated in Book 2: Massacre with the example of the Xth Legion where it says that if the traitors had been correct in their assumption that they could turn Ferrus, the Heresy could have ended very differently Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/320247-if-guilliman-had-turned/#findComment-4333062 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atia Posted March 11, 2016 Share Posted March 11, 2016 I thought he had turned? Imperium Secundus? ?? :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/320247-if-guilliman-had-turned/#findComment-4333076 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted March 11, 2016 Share Posted March 11, 2016 A better story would be something like the Triumvirate following Casers death. Guilliman leads a faction to reorganize the Imperium, while Dorn leads the conservative faction. Russ is a wild card who wants the imperium to become a confederation of independent sectors. Way more drama,and much more realistic than Guilliman coming up with the codex and everyone agreeing to neuter themselves. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/320247-if-guilliman-had-turned/#findComment-4333077 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olis Posted March 11, 2016 Share Posted March 11, 2016 *cough*The Guilliman Heresy!*cough!* Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/320247-if-guilliman-had-turned/#findComment-4333090 Share on other sites More sharing options...
God-Potato of Mankind Posted March 11, 2016 Share Posted March 11, 2016 I think the only major side switcher that mattered is the Alpha legion. Seriously they're like Galactic scale plot armour, if they stayed Loyal every single one of Horus's moves would have been met with 'lol betrayed by the only person that matters in this specific situstion!' antics. Ultramarine would have added manpower and materiel alone. I'm not sure that's enough to tip the scales. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/320247-if-guilliman-had-turned/#findComment-4333112 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atia Posted March 11, 2016 Share Posted March 11, 2016 I think the only major side switcher that mattered is the Alpha legion. Seriously they're like Galactic scale plot armour, if they stayed Loyal every single one of Horus's moves would have been met with 'lol betrayed by the only person that matters in this specific situstion!' antics. Ultramarine would have added manpower and materiel alone. I'm not sure that's enough to tip the scales. Who said the Alpha Legion didn't stayed loyal? Never forget - we have three heads. Hydra Dominatus. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/320247-if-guilliman-had-turned/#findComment-4333116 Share on other sites More sharing options...
God-Potato of Mankind Posted March 11, 2016 Share Posted March 11, 2016 I mean of terms of the Imperium winning, not all life winning over Chaos :p Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/320247-if-guilliman-had-turned/#findComment-4333132 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atia Posted March 11, 2016 Share Posted March 11, 2016 I mean of terms of the Imperium winning, not all life winning over Chaos Empires come and go ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/320247-if-guilliman-had-turned/#findComment-4333157 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remus Ventanus. Posted March 11, 2016 Share Posted March 11, 2016 There was a passage in tempest that stated if guilliman had been made aware of the heresy, and had time to prepare, that he may be able to withstand horus' rebellion and the 500 worlds would be a bulwark against the traitors. So if he turned traitor I believe without a doubt the traitoes would have had a decisive victory Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/320247-if-guilliman-had-turned/#findComment-4333174 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted March 11, 2016 Share Posted March 11, 2016 Geography renders that passage false. Ultramar was too far from Horus. That's why Calth was an attack on their force projection capabilities. The Ultramarines fleet made them dangerous, but Ultramar itself could be isolated, which Lorgar successfully did during the Shadow Crusade. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/320247-if-guilliman-had-turned/#findComment-4333192 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remus Ventanus. Posted March 11, 2016 Share Posted March 11, 2016 That still makes the passage true. It stated ultramar could be withstand horus' might. Also the ultramarines fleet is relatively small Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/320247-if-guilliman-had-turned/#findComment-4333199 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scribe Posted March 11, 2016 Share Posted March 11, 2016 If he could have, the resulting fact that they didnt get involved (while others could get to terra) sure makes a guy wonder. ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/320247-if-guilliman-had-turned/#findComment-4333204 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remus Ventanus. Posted March 11, 2016 Share Posted March 11, 2016 Ultramar is more important then terra..... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/320247-if-guilliman-had-turned/#findComment-4333211 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother-Chaplain Kage Posted March 11, 2016 Share Posted March 11, 2016 I can already see how this could be heading down a bad path, and everyone needs to take a breath and keep it civil. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/320247-if-guilliman-had-turned/#findComment-4333235 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olis Posted March 11, 2016 Share Posted March 11, 2016 Ultramar is more important then terra..... That's quite the claim, brother. It's little bit of an unfair comparison though - Ultramar comprises of 500 worlds, and you're stacking that against just Terra. However, a case could be made that the Sol system (rather than just Terra) is still of disproportionate value seeing as it houses the two homeworlds of the Imperium and the Mechanicus. Disproportionate enough to outweigh the 500 worlds? That is probably an answer that would need a long, looong post to resolve (and even then it would probably not be the final say, either). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/320247-if-guilliman-had-turned/#findComment-4333242 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted March 11, 2016 Share Posted March 11, 2016 The Ultramarines fleet was in the top tier of size. Not insubstantial, which was why crippling it was so important. Force projection matters more than localized capability. Also, Ultramar is not more important than the birth world of humanity. That's unsubstantiated by any source in the background and also by applying any strategic theory. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/320247-if-guilliman-had-turned/#findComment-4333245 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Blackwood Posted March 11, 2016 Share Posted March 11, 2016 I respectfully disagree with the notion that Ultramar or the 500 worlds are more important than Terra. When you consider the fact that Terra is the seat of power for the Emperor the Birthworld of humanity and the fact that its from Terra the Great Crusade was launched to reunite humanity , I would find it hard to place more importance on another world. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/320247-if-guilliman-had-turned/#findComment-4333248 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scribe Posted March 11, 2016 Share Posted March 11, 2016 I can already see how this could be heading down a bad path, and everyone needs to take a breath and keep it civil. :D Ultramar is more important then terra..... Your bias aside, I would love to read the justification for this position. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/320247-if-guilliman-had-turned/#findComment-4333278 Share on other sites More sharing options...
depthcharge12 Posted March 11, 2016 Share Posted March 11, 2016 Honestly I'd send either the world eaters or night lords to take care of it. So what if there was mutual destruction! Two birds, one n-dimension warhead :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/320247-if-guilliman-had-turned/#findComment-4333281 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DuskRaider Posted March 11, 2016 Share Posted March 11, 2016 If Guilliman had defected, the Heresy would have taken twice the amount of time due to Horus having to proof read and sign a Battle Barge's worth of beaurocratic paperwork, thus the Imperium would have won even faster. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/320247-if-guilliman-had-turned/#findComment-4333285 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted March 12, 2016 Share Posted March 12, 2016 Guilliman would not have turned or joined Horus. But I am of the belief that had the Ultramarines been made aware of the Heresy they could have defeated all traitor forces by themselves. If he was somehow swayed by the Warmaster, it would have been the end of the Imperium. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/320247-if-guilliman-had-turned/#findComment-4333362 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atia Posted March 12, 2016 Share Posted March 12, 2016 If Guilliman had defected, the Heresy would have taken twice the amount of time due to Horus having to proof read and sign a Battle Barge's worth of beaurocratic paperwork, thus the Imperium would have won even faster. Or the other traitor Primarchs would have killed him after his "I wrote that book about tactics! Everyone should use it, it's the best way to fight" speech? :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/320247-if-guilliman-had-turned/#findComment-4333363 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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