If Guilliman had turned...

[Marshal Rohr]

Guilliman would not have turned or joined Horus.

 

But I am of the belief that had the Ultramarines been made aware of the Heresy they could have defeated all traitor forces by themselves.

 

If he was somehow swayed by the Warmaster, it would have been the end of the Imperium.

That's also not substantiated by either background or reality.

 

 

You guys need to check your bias. It's impossible to take seriously.

[DuskRaider]

But I am of the belief that had the Ultramarines been made aware of the Heresy they could have defeated all traitor forces by themselves.

No.

[shandwen]

The big G built a legion that only needed someone to follow. The leader didn't have to be him.

If you kill him there would be chaos- for a little while, but then whomever killed him (and anyone even slightly involved) would die by sheer weight of numbers and adaptive tactics (now I realize ultra tactics were slow to adapt, but they always, always adapt).

The Ultramarines would be a nightmare for the imperium to put down, and unlike the traitors they wouldn't burn out every resource they have and would be just strong in 100 years as they were before (if not stronger).

[Remus Ventanus.]

 

Guilliman would not have turned or joined Horus.

 

But I am of the belief that had the Ultramarines been made aware of the Heresy they could have defeated all traitor forces by themselves.

 

If he was somehow swayed by the Warmaster, it would have been the end of the Imperium.

That's also not substantiated by either background or reality.

 

 

You guys need to check your bias. It's impossible to take seriously.

 

Its literally in tempest. 

[Remus Ventanus.]

 

Ultramar is more important then terra.....

 

That's quite the claim, brother. It's little bit of an unfair comparison though - Ultramar comprises of 500 worlds, and you're stacking that against just Terra. However, a case could be made that the Sol system (rather than just Terra) is still of disproportionate value seeing as it houses the two homeworlds of the Imperium and the Mechanicus. Disproportionate enough to outweigh the 500 worlds? That is probably an answer that would need a long, looong post to resolve (and even then it would probably not be the final say, either).

 

I was just teasing scribe. I really need to use the smiley faces more often :D

[Marshal Rohr]

 

 

Guilliman would not have turned or joined Horus.

But I am of the belief that had the Ultramarines been made aware of the Heresy they could have defeated all traitor forces by themselves.

If he was somehow swayed by the Warmaster, it would have been the end of the Imperium.

 

That's also not substantiated by either background or reality.

You guys need to check your bias. It's impossible to take seriously.

Its literally in tempest.

Feel free to post the relevant quotes.

[Remus Ventanus.]

 

 

 

Guilliman would not have turned or joined Horus.

But I am of the belief that had the Ultramarines been made aware of the Heresy they could have defeated all traitor forces by themselves.

If he was somehow swayed by the Warmaster, it would have been the end of the Imperium.

That's also not substantiated by either background or reality.

You guys need to check your bias. It's impossible to take seriously.

Its literally in tempest.

Feel free to post the relevant quotes.

 

This is from pg 17 of tempest.

 

"Ultramar was a blade at the throat of Horus' rebellion. Left unopposed and given time to gather in strength, for the warriors of the XIIIth Legion and their oath-bound Imperial Army auxillia, Ultramar would form a bastion that could resist even the full might of Horus' dark hosts."

 

This is why i strongly believe Ultramar was pivitol to the imperium.

[Marshal Rohr]

 

 

 

 

Guilliman would not have turned or joined Horus.

But I am of the belief that had the Ultramarines been made aware of the Heresy they could have defeated all traitor forces by themselves.

If he was somehow swayed by the Warmaster, it would have been the end of the Imperium.

 

That's also not substantiated by either background or reality.

You guys need to check your bias. It's impossible to take seriously.

Its literally in tempest.

Feel free to post the relevant quotes.

This is from pg 17 of tempest.

 

"Ultramar was a blade at the throat of Horus' rebellion. Left unopposed and given time to gather in strength, for the warriors of the XIIIth Legion and their oath-bound Imperial Army auxillia, Ultramar would form a bastion that could resist even the full might of Horus' dark hosts."

 

This is why i strongly believe Ultramar was pivitol to the imperium.

There's an awful lot of counter factuals for it to be a given as true. To resist Horus is not the same thing as defeating him.

[Remus Ventanus.]

 

 

 

 

 

Guilliman would not have turned or joined Horus.

But I am of the belief that had the Ultramarines been made aware of the Heresy they could have defeated all traitor forces by themselves.

If he was somehow swayed by the Warmaster, it would have been the end of the Imperium.

That's also not substantiated by either background or reality.

You guys need to check your bias. It's impossible to take seriously.

Its literally in tempest.

Feel free to post the relevant quotes.

This is from pg 17 of tempest.

 

"Ultramar was a blade at the throat of Horus' rebellion. Left unopposed and given time to gather in strength, for the warriors of the XIIIth Legion and their oath-bound Imperial Army auxillia, Ultramar would form a bastion that could resist even the full might of Horus' dark hosts."

 

This is why i strongly believe Ultramar was pivitol to the imperium.

There's an awful lot of counter factuals for it to be a given as true. To resist Horus is not the same thing as defeating him.

oh I didn't mean to imply he could defeat him. I thought I said that before, but if I didn't apologies for the confusion

[b1soul]

What if Guilliman had "turned" mid-GC?

[Remus Ventanus.]

By himself? If he was a sole traitor ultramar would burn

[Memento Of Prospero]

You know, I really hate these threads. They pop up every month or so (by the same people) and they are pointless. All it does is stir the pot and hope someone starts going down "that road".

 

The heresy was balanced on a Knifes edge. It's not some miracle 9 legions turned amd 9 did not.

 

Any deviation from this means a loss for the other side, and everyone knows this. There is not a single Primarch that would not have changed the tide of battle had he not fallen or stayed loyal.

 

If you want a real topic, swap primarches sides. That will yield an actual discussion

[Scribe]

 

 

 

 

Guilliman would not have turned or joined Horus.

But I am of the belief that had the Ultramarines been made aware of the Heresy they could have defeated all traitor forces by themselves.

If he was somehow swayed by the Warmaster, it would have been the end of the Imperium.

That's also not substantiated by either background or reality.

You guys need to check your bias. It's impossible to take seriously.

Its literally in tempest.

Feel free to post the relevant quotes.

 

This is from pg 17 of tempest.

 

"Ultramar was a blade at the throat of Horus' rebellion. Left unopposed and given time to gather in strength, for the warriors of the XIIIth Legion and their oath-bound Imperial Army auxillia, Ultramar would form a bastion that could resist even the full might of Horus' dark hosts."

 

This is why i strongly believe Ultramar was pivitol to the imperium.

 

 

And yet, when NOT given time, and made to suffer from proactive attempts to disable the ability for them to plan...they where made impotent.

 

All that quote really says is 'given time to do whatever they want and fortify to their hearts contents they could have held out against horus'

 

Not at all shocking or great a claim. "Given my near unlimited resources in the Empire I built within my Fathers Empire..if allowed to turtle...I could hold out'

 

/slowclapping.

 

;)

[God-Potato of Mankind]

I think I agree with the thought of the Ultramarines intact could have given all the traitors a rin for their money but only after a while.

 

The degeneration in cohesive, ordered battle in the traitor Legions would have been a huge weakness the Avenging Bean counter could really tear up.

 

That said, a full strength Salamanders, Iron Hands or Raven Guard Legion would also do the same, though they lack the epic logistical support so would probably burn out sooner.

 

All I think would change is that it would still rip the Galaxy's tits off, if Ultramar had been prepared, but not at Terra. The victory for one side would be fought across the Void and Imperium.

 

Just cos of the logistics. No other Legion had such scope, imagine if Girlyman went full acceleration on neophyte induction. He'd be swimming in Legionaries.

[Legatus]

If you were the Emperor and Guilliman and his 500 worlds stepped way out of line

 

If any one loyal Legion had also turned, in addition to the nine actual traitor Legions, then it would have been tough for the Imperium. So I'll instead assume that the Ultramarines sided with Horus in place of any of the other eight (not Sons of Horus) traitor Legions.

 

I'll go ahead and say that no matter which of the eight Legions was replaced, having the Ultramarines on his side instead would already have been a huge advantage for Horus. (For reasons of their size alone, but IMHO for reasons of performance as well.) But the Legion itself aside, what would probably be even more important would be the realm of Ultramar (for this purpose in it's "500 worlds" iteration). A huge, very stable and well defended region of space, with significant production capacities. In the actual story, Horus and the traitors rushed for terra because they knew that in the long run the Imperium would eventually bring their superior resources to bear. But with a region such as Ultramar at their back, they could have instead opted for a long war, trying to conquer the Imperium world by world, system by system. A revolution instead of a coup. Aside from the production capacities, Ultramar also has a reputation for being fairly well led, prosperous and stable. So Ultramar siding with Horus could have been a powerful argument for other worlds and systems that perhaps the side of Horus was preferrable to that of the Imperium. Those factors all would have been much more important to the greater course of events than simply having a strong Legion at his disposal.

 

And no, Ultramar is nor more important than Terra. The Astronomican is the single most important device for mankind in this universe, and without it there would not even be any more communication or travel within Ultramar. But setting aside that aspect, an argument could be made that Ultramar was possibly a more stable and productive realm than the area around Sol/Terra. One for one, Terra is more heavily defended than Macragge, Mars is a more important forge world than Calth or Armatura. But I haven't heard much more about the significance of the worlds and systems around Sol. So perhaps Ultramar in it's entirety could really rival Terra and it's surrounding systems. If the Emperor died, and makeshift solutions in lieu of the astronomican had to be developed, perhaps Ultramar really would be preferrable to Terra.

[b1soul]

You know, I really hate these threads. They pop up every month or so (by the same people) and they are pointless.

Why are you here wasting your breath?

[Memento Of Prospero]

 

You know, I really hate these threads. They pop up every month or so (by the same people) and they are pointless.

Why are you here wasting your breath?

Because I care for this community. Strange, I know.

 

When all you have left is a personal attack, you know you have lost the argument.

[Ishagu]

I think this topic has been pretty friendly in all honesty.

 

As for the subject matter, the strength of the Ultramarines compared to the average Legion cannot be understated. Its not just about numbers. but about their supply chains, ability to mobilise and organise, their singular unity and discipline and so on. A force containing the planning and strategizing of Guilliman and the charisma and leadership of Horus would have been un-stoppable.

[Memento Of Prospero]

I think this topic has been pretty friendly in all honesty.

 

As for the subject matter, the strength of the Ultramarines compared to the average Legion cannot be understated. Its not just about numbers. but about their supply chains, ability to mobilise and organise, their singular unity and discipline and so on. A force containing the planning and strategizing of Guilliman and the charisma and leadership of Horus would have been un-stoppable.

That is the how the ultras work on their own. When you put Guilliman in with other Primarchs, the dynamics change. Let me state the negative sides of your advantages.

 

He cannot take the back seat. He has a compulsive need to micromanage every little detail. Even in Imperium Secondus, shouting to everyone who would hear him that he did not want the reigns because everyone would fault for it, he still did. Sanguinius was no more than a Puppet reagant. He couldn't get along with the Lion either. And those are the good guys.

 

And you really think Horus, who wanted Sanguinius dead, would want the runner up to the title of Warmaster criticizing his every move? His ego would not suffer it.

 

How long would he last in a "meeting" with Curze, Angron and Mortarion ;)

[Ishagu]

By all accounts Sanguinius, Dorn, Russ and Ferrus had no problems in getting along with Guilliman.

 

I'd agree that the more socially inept Primarchs - Curze, Angron and Mortarion might not be able to tolerate him.

Perhaps you're right about Horus, however. Pre Heresy I think the two of them could get along, but after he fell to Chaos his ego and pride wouldn't take well to being challenged.

[Scribe]

Horus was one of those 'socially inept' Primarchs. All the traitor ones had psychological flaws (in the old IA articles you could practically identify which mental illness each suffered from) I do also get the impression of Rob wanting on a subconscious level to be the power behind the throne/puppetmaster type leader.

[Ishagu]

I'm not doubting for a moment that Guilliman was controlling, but I think his sense of Honour is what prevents him from ever becoming truly power hungry.

 

Yes, Horus had a psychological chink to him but it wasn't the same crippling mentality that Curze or Angron were afflicted with, for example.

[Remus Ventanus.]

I don't think he is power hungry per se, but I do not think he would allow anyone else to control what his legion did. His ocd for doing things his way wouldn't allow it

[Ishagu]

I don't get the impression he has OCD. He is capable of processing more information that anyone else, but obsessively compulsive? That's not in his character.

[Calas Typhon]

He could just be unaware of how he comes across and his need for power.

 

Lets be honest, the Primarchs were not really some of the smartest or observant fellows around, judging from a few instances. (Horus getting royally baited and so on as a prime example and Perturabo and the whole AE mess)