If Guilliman had turned...

[Remus Ventanus.]

I think in a way he does, when it comes to efficiency. In know no fear there was one part where loading crews were running 5 minutes late, and that was completely unacceptable to guilliman. I can't imagine him letting anyone tell him how to run his legion

[Olis]

I don't get the impression he has OCD. He is capable of processing more information that anyone else, but obsessively compulsive? That's not in his character.

 

I agree that he hasn't got OCD. Unfortunately the term is being applied in a general manner to denote fastidiousness, which is the current trend atm. Many people mistake attention to detail for actual OCD, or mislabel it. 

[Marshal Rohr]

 

If you were the Emperor and Guilliman and his 500 worlds stepped way out of line

If any one loyal Legion had also turned, in addition to the nine actual traitor Legions, then it would have been tough for the Imperium. So I'll instead assume that the Ultramarines sided with Horus in place of any of the other eight (not Sons of Horus) traitor Legions.

 

I'll go ahead and say that no matter which of the eight Legions was replaced, having the Ultramarines on his side instead would already have been a huge advantage for Horus. (For reasons of their size alone, but IMHO for reasons of performance as well.) But the Legion itself aside, what would probably be even more important would be the realm of Ultramar (for this purpose in it's "500 worlds" iteration). A huge, very stable and well defended region of space, with significant production capacities. In the actual story, Horus and the traitors rushed for terra because they knew that in the long run the Imperium would eventually bring their superior resources to bear. But with a region such as Ultramar at their back, they could have instead opted for a long war, trying to conquer the Imperium world by world, system by system. A revolution instead of a coup. Aside from the production capacities, Ultramar also has a reputation for being fairly well led, prosperous and stable. So Ultramar siding with Horus could have been a powerful argument for other worlds and systems that perhaps the side of Horus was preferrable to that of the Imperium. Those factors all would have been much more important to the greater course of events than simply having a strong Legion at his disposal.

 

And no, Ultramar is nor more important than Terra. The Astronomican is the single most important device for mankind in this universe, and without it there would not even be any more communication or travel within Ultramar. But setting aside that aspect, an argument could be made that Ultramar was possibly a more stable and productive realm than the area around Sol/Terra. One for one, Terra is more heavily defended than Macragge, Mars is a more important forge world than Calth or Armatura. But I haven't heard much more about the significance of the worlds and systems around Sol. So perhaps Ultramar in it's entirety could really rival Terra and it's surrounding systems. If the Emperor died, and makeshift solutions in lieu of the astronomican had to be developed, perhaps Ultramar really would be preferrable to Terra.

This post makes me nostalgic for our old 'what if' threads banter.

[Legionary Pallas]

Honestly the Ultramarines are somewhat insignificant in the Heresy and here's why.

 

Let's say theoretically that Horus wins at Terra and starts his new empire, when Horus wins a number of things will likely happen.

1. Lion 'El Johnson shows up and joins Horus because Horus won.
2. Many planets will join Horus after the Emperor's death.
3. Horus has a chance to take out any remaining loyal forces.
4. We don't know when the Ruinstorm will fade and Guilliman still has no clue what's going on outside.
5. Horus can rebuild and prepare for eventual retaliation from the Ultramarines, assuming the second Guilliman learns of the Emperor's defeat he doesn't side with Horus or, more likely, turn neutral.

Why would Guilliman stop fighting? He has no reason to. The Imperium he wanted to defend is dead, his best chance to ensure Ultramar's survival, which he clearly cares greatly about, is to go neutral. It is the perfect chance for Guilliman to build his Imperium Secundus in peace, that is, if Horus decides to not attack it once he has regained his strength.

 

Now let's imagine none of that matters because Guilliman was with Horus from the word go and Horus' rebellion succeeds.

1. Horus has more military strength to accomplish everything he would have done already.

Yep. That's it. All it truly accomplishes is preventing a later war between Horus and the "New Imperium" and Guilliman's Imperium Secundus. A war that Horus would have been able to start whenever he wanted, unless Guilliman decides to attack Horus' "New Imperium" as soon as the Ruinstorm clears.

 

The Ultramarines don't do much in the Heresy, only able to do anything after it has ended. For the sake of hypothetical ideas, perhaps (although unlikely) he does beat the New Imperium all on his lonesome or with the help of remaining loyal forces, what then? He avenged a dead empire. That's all.

 

What difference can one legion make? Maybe all the difference in the world, or maybe nothing.

 

The Ultramarines can not fight nine or maybe even ten other legions on their own, even if the enemy are weakened, collectively Horus' forces would probably still outnumber the Ultramarines, and Horus didn't get the title of Warmaster for being the worst general in the galaxy.

 

But none of it matters, because Horus will always lose to Big E at the end and Big E will always be put on the Golden Throne.

 

The Heresy has 3 major events that mean EVERYTHING and only the first 2 could have been able to stop the 3rd.

1. Istvaan V. Here Horus' rebellion could have been stopped the second it started.
2. Molech. If Horus didn't get the boost from the Chaos Gods he would lose to the Emperor.
3. The Siege of Terra. The second this starts it's over. Horus will challenge the Emperor. You know the rest.

Or maybe if the Emperor wasn't the worst father in the galaxy.

[Legatus]

I am not sure what kind of scenraio you are thinking of exactly. Is that a scenario where the Dark Angels and the Space Wolves are not arriving together with the Ultramarines at the final stages of the Siege of Terra? Where the Blood Angels, Imperial Fists and White Scars are no longer defending it? Because in the actual story the Ultramarines accounted for about 50% of the incoming reinforcements that forced Horus' hand. Depending on what condition the defending three Legions were in, the Ultramarines might even have accounted for 30-40% of the Marine forces pitted against the traitor forces on Terra at that moment.

But in this hypothetical new scenario the Ultramarines are not even moving to Terra? Or all the defending and incoming loyalists just let off once Horus manages to defeat the Emperor?

[Legionary Pallas]

I am not sure what kind of scenraio you are thinking of exactly. Is that a scenario where the Dark Angels and the Space Wolves are not arriving together with the Ultramarines at the final stages of the Siege of Terra? Where the Blood Angels, Imperial Fists and White Scars are no longer defending it? Because in the actual story the Ultramarines accounted for about 50% of the incoming reinforcements that forced Horus' hand. Depending on what condition the defending three Legions were in, the Ultramarines might even have accounted for 30-40% of the Marine forces pitted against the traitor forces on Terra at that moment.

But in this hypothetical new scenario the Ultramarines are not even moving to Terra? Or all the defending and incoming loyalists just let off once Horus manages to defeat the Emperor?

Ah, I couldn't remember when the Ruinstorm clears exactly, and a google search got me nothing, I see that this does change a great deal, but on the other hand, Guilliman probably would send a small fraction of his forces to discover what is going on, not his entire legion because he wants to defend Ultramar.

 

The Blood Angels would be struggling to cope with both Sanguinius' death and the Black Rage, a good portion of their legion would be afflicted and the remainders will have to find a solution to get the afflicted into battle without killing each other.

 

I definitely skimmed over some stuff, so thanks for reminding me of those details, Legatus.

 

Now rethinking it, even if Horus beat the Emperor the traitors would still be forced away into the Eye of Terror, the only real difference it would make in the long run would be Horus would be able to lead Chaos forces in the future instead of Abbadon.

 

So i concede that Guilliman turning would make enough of a difference to allow Horus to hold his empire should he beat the Emperor, but would it be enough to stop Horus challenging Big E? If he does then we know how it will end.

[Remus Ventanus.]

 

I am not sure what kind of scenraio you are thinking of exactly. Is that a scenario where the Dark Angels and the Space Wolves are not arriving together with the Ultramarines at the final stages of the Siege of Terra? Where the Blood Angels, Imperial Fists and White Scars are no longer defending it? Because in the actual story the Ultramarines accounted for about 50% of the incoming reinforcements that forced Horus' hand. Depending on what condition the defending three Legions were in, the Ultramarines might even have accounted for 30-40% of the Marine forces pitted against the traitor forces on Terra at that moment.

But in this hypothetical new scenario the Ultramarines are not even moving to Terra? Or all the defending and incoming loyalists just let off once Horus manages to defeat the Emperor?

Ah, I couldn't remember when the Ruinstorm clears exactly, and a google search got me nothing, I see that this does change a great deal, but on the other hand, Guilliman probably would send a small fraction of his forces to discover what is going on, not his entire legion because he wants to defend Ultramar.

 

The Blood Angels would be struggling to cope with both Sanguinius' death and the Black Rage, a good portion of their legion would be afflicted and the remainders will have to find a solution to get the afflicted into battle without killing each other.

 

I definitely skimmed over some stuff, so thanks for reminding me of those details, Legatus.

 

Now rethinking it, even if Horus beat the Emperor the traitors would still be forced away into the Eye of Terror, the only real difference it would make in the long run would be Horus would be able to lead Chaos forces in the future instead of Abbadon.

 

So i concede that Guilliman turning would make enough of a difference to allow Horus to hold his empire should he beat the Emperor, but would it be enough to stop Horus challenging Big E? If he does then we know how it will end.

 

Im not sure if it has been decided when the ruinstorm clears, in the new lore anyways. I find it kind of wierd at times, we have sanguinius at macragge, then at terra, so im not sure why Guilliman and the lion couldnt make it. I havent read the last few novels so i may be missing something

[depthcharge12]

Lol why would the Lion ever side with Horus? They hate each other's guts. Horus doesn't even try to get the Lion to side with him, he just sends the NLs to kamikaze themselves against the first legion. The Lion also was a Wulfen hair away from fighting Guilliman because he thought he was going against the Emps.

 

Guilliman is a thorn to either side just because he has a large swath of space under his mien, and a large force to boot. The same could be said of Lorgar. If Lorgar had voted Emps, even without the Chaos backing, his large legion and dominion over many planets in the latter crusade would've tipped the balance.

[Wyvern]

If lorgar had voted emps there wouldnt have even been a heresy.... Or would there..

[DuskRaider]

Horus may actually already have a MASSIVE numerical advantage, depending on the Alpha Legion's actual Legion size. They may actually rival the XIIIth, but two things: the twins aren't fully dedicating their forces to Horus, and they're also having their own civil war in the shadows at this point in the plot.

[Terminus]

Its like saying, what would have happened if Perturabo and the Iron Warriors fortified Terra and the sol system instead of the Imperial Fists? really hard to tell. Either way, we know it would be a mess for the Loyalists whichever Loyal Primarch turned.

Yes, that it is really hard to say, but only in the sense of it being really hard to quantify how many orders of magnitude it would be fortified better. Imperial Fists, nature's D student.

[Marshal Rohr]

 

Its like saying, what would have happened if Perturabo and the Iron Warriors fortified Terra and the sol system instead of the Imperial Fists? really hard to tell. Either way, we know it would be a mess for the Loyalists whichever Loyal Primarch turned.

Yes, that it is really hard to say, but only in the sense of it being really hard to quantify how many orders of magnitude it would be fortified better. Imperial Fists, nature's D student.

 

 

 

http://i3.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/facebook/000/993/875/084.png

[Terminus]

Haha. Yes, that there is basically Dorn.

Sorry, I am always amused by the Fists because their Assigned Character Flaw is stubbornness that frequently crosses into catastrophic stupidity. There was a short story recently about the Custodians' various blood games to try and "assassinate" the Emperor. In a sub-plot therein, in the process of the fortification of Terra, Dorn ordered this massive cargo hauler worth of materiel to get to some other location as fast as possible. His subordinates took him at his word and plotted a direct line course to said location. Unfortunately, this course put this gigantic cargo hauler right over the Imperial Palace. Understandably concerned, the Custodes contacted the Imperial Fists on board the ship to "Uh, bro, can you go around?" and were rebuffed, "Sod off ya :cusss, Lord Dorn wants this crap delivered yesterday!" The Custodes go so far as to teleport onto the ship in order to talk/punch some sense into the Imperial Fists, who instead assumed anti-boarding defensive positions and started firing upon the Custodes. Thankfully, Malcador eventually got Dorn to pick up his cell-phone, and after a bit of arguing the ship was stopped and went around before too many casualties on either side. So it's like Delta was flying one of their planes and the course incidentally took them over the white house, and a Secret Service member on the plane was like, "hey guys you can't do that", and the Delta pilot shoots him in the face because "no one tells me what direction to fly!". You see the same stubborn level: stupid with the Iron Cage incident, or the post-Codex meltdown where half the Legion goes off on a penitent crusade/temper tantrum and Dorn kills himself in that Space hulk. just so damn silly.

Anyway, I think Horus-controlled Imperium vs. Ultramar would be kind of like cold war USSR vs. USA. The former is grander in size and has far more resources, but exploits them poorly vs. a smaller but highly developed and far more efficient opponent. War is a mathematical formula, to quote Perturabo, and a cold war is an accounting spreadsheet. Advantage: Guilliman.

[Marshal Rohr]

Haha. Yes, that there is basically Dorn. :D

 

Sorry, I am always amused by the Fists because their Assigned Character Flaw is stubbornness that frequently crosses into catastrophic stupidity. There was a short story recently about the Custodians' various blood games to try and "assassinate" the Emperor.  In a sub-plot therein, in the process of the fortification of Terra, Dorn ordered this massive cargo hauler worth of materiel to get to some other location as fast as possible.  His subordinates took him at his word and plotted a direct line course to said location.  Unfortunately, this course put this gigantic cargo hauler right over the Imperial Palace.  Understandably concerned, the Custodes contacted the Imperial Fists on board the ship to "Uh, bro, can you go around?" and were rebuffed, "Sod off ya :cusss, Lord Dorn wants this crap delivered yesterday!"  The Custodes go so far as to teleport onto the ship in order to talk/punch some sense into the Imperial Fists, who instead assumed anti-boarding defensive positions and started firing upon the Custodes.  Thankfully, Malcador eventually got Dorn to pick up his cell-phone, and after a bit of arguing the ship was stopped and went around before too many casualties on either side.  So it's like Delta was flying one of their planes and the course incidentally took them over the white house, and a Secret Service member on the plane was like, "hey guys you can't do that", and the Delta pilot shoots him in the face because "no one tells me what direction to fly!".  You see the same stubborn level: stupid with the Iron Cage incident, or the post-Codex meltdown where he killed himself by running into a Space Hulk. Just so silly.

 

 

Anyway, I think Horus-controlled Imperium vs. Ultramar would be kind of like cold war USSR vs. USA.  The former is grander in size and has far more resources, but exploits them poorly vs. a smaller but highly developed and far more efficient opponent.  War is a mathematical formula, to quote Perturabo, and a cold war is an accounting spreadsheet.  Advantage: Guilliman.

 

Let's not let Rob Sanders define a whole legion with one story.

[depthcharge12]

...so can I mark Ferrus Manus under allowance for bad debt expense?

 

Are we talking FIFO or LIFO here?

 

Wait, never mind, don't let us accountants take over war. I'd audit the hell out of Malcador.

[Terminus]

...so can I mark Ferrus Manus under allowance for bad debt expense?

 

Are we talking FIFO or LIFO here?

 

Wait, never mind, don't let us accountants take over war. I'd audit the hell out of Malcador.

Yes, put Dorn under doubtful accounts. 

 

Good luck auditing Malcador, though, it'd be like auditing this guy:

 

http://www.animateit.net/data/media/july2012/hypnotoad.gif

[Legionary Pallas]

Lol why would the Lion ever side with Horus? They hate each other's guts. Horus doesn't even try to get the Lion to side with him, he just sends the NLs to kamikaze themselves against the first legion. The Lion also was a Wulfen hair away from fighting Guilliman because he thought he was going against the Emps.

 

Guilliman is a thorn to either side just because he has a large swath of space under his mien, and a large force to boot. The same could be said of Lorgar. If Lorgar had voted Emps, even without the Chaos backing, his large legion and dominion over many planets in the latter crusade would've tipped the balance.

Didn't the Lion purposefully show up late? So he could see who won? I suppose that's old lore now, so his reasons would be very different in the new lore.

[Legatus]

Didn't the Lion purposefully show up late? So he could see who won?

 

No.

 

Unless you want to believe the assumptions of a Fallen Angel, who hadn't been there, but ten thousand years later heard that apparently the "master strategist" Jonson wasn't at the Battle for Terra. So he concluded that Jonson, who he wasn'T a big fan of, must have kept away on purpose.

 

Little did he know that it was the Space Wolves who had delayed the Dark Angels' and Space Wolves' joint journey to earth. That Jonson and Russ fought a duel over Jonson blaming Russ for delaying their arrival, where Russ let Jonson pierce one of his hearts. That the traitor Luther was waiting on Caliban for Jonson's return.

[Daemon2027]

I think the only way Guiliman would turn would be to have Ultramar succeed from the Imperium, I can't really imagine him being a subordinate to Horus in anyrhing other then the role appointed by the Emperor. Of course of he did the blow to the Imperials would be massive, as well as the Ultramarines it would free up both the Word Bearers and the World Eaters, the latter who would probably loose their Primarch to the nails and probably would be better off under Khârn, but that's another discussion.

[b1soul]

Guilliman is a thorn to either side just because he has a large swath of space under his mien, and a large force to boot. The same could be said of Lorgar.

The difference between Guilliman and Lorgar is the resources of a 500-world min-iempire

[b1soul]

 

 

You know, I really hate these threads. They pop up every month or so (by the same people) and they are pointless.

Why are you here wasting your breath?

Because I care for this community. Strange, I know.

When all you have left is a personal attack, you know you have lost the argument.

What personal attack?

 

You say this thread pointless...then you waste your time posying here, which has the effect of bumping it. Bizarre

[Memento Of Prospero]

 

 

 

You know, I really hate these threads. They pop up every month or so (by the same people) and they are pointless.

Why are you here wasting your breath?

Because I care for this community. Strange, I know.

When all you have left is a personal attack, you know you have lost the argument.

What personal attack?

 

You say this thread pointless...then you waste your time posying here, which has the effect of bumping it. Bizarre

The best way to resolve a situation is to ignore it. Right on.

[Calas Typhon]

 

 

What personal attack?

 

You say this thread pointless...then you waste your time posying here, which has the effect of bumping it. Bizarre

The best way to resolve a situation is to ignore it. Right on.

 

I will be honest, I saw no personal attacks, this whole thread has been on the border of breaking down, but it has not yet.

[Marshal Rohr]

God forbid we actually try to have a discussion about the military and industrial capability of Ultramar.

 

The attitude of 'why waste your breath' has murdered fluff discussion, which used to be the grand unifying theme of the board.

[Dantay VI]

As far as I am aware, nobody even attempted to turn Guillemann to Horus or Chaos' side.

I believe some Primarchs were considered not worth the trouble of trying or too loyal.

 

While the what if is intriguing, to imagine it. Ultimately it is kind of a futile venture & a waste of time, because it did not happen, and would in all likelihood would never happen.

 

If you want to discuss the what if or create an alternative heresy, would this not be better done in the special projects/ dornian heresy area of the forums, rather than clogging up the AoD section with something which is not a part of the AoD?