Marshal Rohr Posted March 13, 2016 Share Posted March 13, 2016 As far as I am aware, nobody even attempted to turn Guillemann to Horus or Chaos' side. I believe some Primarchs were considered not worth the trouble of trying or too loyal. While the what if is intriguing, to imagine it. Ultimately it is kind of a futile venture & a waste of time, because it did not happen, and would in all likelihood would never happen. If you want to discuss the what if or create an alternative heresy, would this not be better done in the special projects/ dornian heresy area of the forums, rather than clogging up the AoD section with something which is not a part of the AoD? My bad, I meant as a separate discussion, like the benefits of more fighter bays or lance batteries on a warship :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/320247-if-guilliman-had-turned/page/4/#findComment-4334489 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dantay VI Posted March 13, 2016 Share Posted March 13, 2016 I think fluff discussion is fine, but to me a what if scenario is not fluff, because it isn't a part of the 30K universe. How the Ultra's fight, their domain, their military capabilities are fluff because it is a part of the 30K-verse. In fact it would be a cool discussion to start. The Trials & Tribulations of the realms of Ultramar... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/320247-if-guilliman-had-turned/page/4/#findComment-4334494 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daemon2027 Posted March 13, 2016 Share Posted March 13, 2016 Didn't Kor Phearon believe he could turn or at least corrupt Guiliman, which is why he stayed his hand when he had him at his mercy. Not the same as Horus bringing him over to his side I know. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/320247-if-guilliman-had-turned/page/4/#findComment-4334620 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted March 13, 2016 Share Posted March 13, 2016 Horus/Lorgar did not approach every Primarch to turn them to their side. Chaos did test every Primarch thoroughly to see which could be corrupted, though. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/320247-if-guilliman-had-turned/page/4/#findComment-4334638 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Memento Of Prospero Posted March 13, 2016 Share Posted March 13, 2016 Didn't Kor Phearon believe he could turn or at least corrupt Guiliman, which is why he stayed his hand when he had him at his mercy. In his opinion, and a poor one at that. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/320247-if-guilliman-had-turned/page/4/#findComment-4334732 Share on other sites More sharing options...
depthcharge12 Posted March 14, 2016 Share Posted March 14, 2016 Lol why would the Lion ever side with Horus? They hate each other's guts. Horus doesn't even try to get the Lion to side with him, he just sends the NLs to kamikaze themselves against the first legion. The Lion also was a Wulfen hair away from fighting Guilliman because he thought he was going against the Emps. Guilliman is a thorn to either side just because he has a large swath of space under his mien, and a large force to boot. The same could be said of Lorgar. If Lorgar had voted Emps, even without the Chaos backing, his large legion and dominion over many planets in the latter crusade would've tipped the balance. Didn't the Lion purposefully show up late? So he could see who won? I suppose that's old lore now, so his reasons would be very different in the new lore. "Life Eater virus can't melt steel beams! The Emperor was behind the heresy!!1!11" :P joking aside, it was old fluff, and were the words of a deluded heretic. @Terminus Excuse me sir! But it appears you've been hiding your expenses in extraordinary gains or losses account and - "ALL HAIL THE HYPNO TOAD" Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/320247-if-guilliman-had-turned/page/4/#findComment-4334797 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augustus Posted March 14, 2016 Share Posted March 14, 2016 Horus didn't want to offer all the Primarchs a seat at his table because if they refused he'd damage his gambit. It could be possible to twist Guillimen's sense of honor. Dude Rob, the Emperor has betrayed us. He's trying to become what is tantamount to a god and here's the proof. All Horus had to do was get him and his legion past the point of no return. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/320247-if-guilliman-had-turned/page/4/#findComment-4334846 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terminus Posted March 14, 2016 Share Posted March 14, 2016 Horus quickly went off his rocker and became a petulant child after he went full-traitor, hence his sabotaging of the corruption of Sangunius. Erebus was right when he said that Horus screwed up the whole game because he didn't want competition, he was just dumb to say it to Horus' face. :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/320247-if-guilliman-had-turned/page/4/#findComment-4334943 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted March 14, 2016 Share Posted March 14, 2016 Something I see getting glossed over is exactly how the Ultramarines are going to be brought to Horus' side. A disciplined, organized force in the vein of the Iron Warriors or Death Guard could very well turn the tide for Horus... But then, once upon a time the Emperor's Children were famed for their discipline and tactical acumen. Then Slaanesh got its claws in them and they became a completely uncontrollable horde of lunatics who were at best dead weight ("Besiege the Emperor's Palace? Nah, I think we'll just be over here grinding this whole hive full of people into space cocaine and snorting it") and at worst, well, look at Angel Extermimatus ("So, Perturabo, I'm gonna kill you so I can turn into a giant snake. No hard feelings, bro"). If Guilliman and the XIII come out the other side as "The Emperor's Children but more numerous" I can see Horus coming to wish they had remained loyal, less headaches for him. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/320247-if-guilliman-had-turned/page/4/#findComment-4335164 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted March 14, 2016 Author Share Posted March 14, 2016 I think we'll just be over here grinding this whole hive full of people End there for lulz Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/320247-if-guilliman-had-turned/page/4/#findComment-4335243 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terminus Posted March 14, 2016 Share Posted March 14, 2016 Horus/Lorgar did not approach every Primarch to turn them to their side. Chaos did test every Primarch thoroughly to see which could be corrupted, though. The whole scattering was a giant social nature vs nurture experiment that involved the Chaos Gods and the Emperor. The Gods gave him the ability to create them as corporeal daemons, essentially, and the bet is "you inject them with various aspects of humanity's nature, and we'll throw them in different situations and we'll see what happens and who turns out alright and who doesn't". Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/320247-if-guilliman-had-turned/page/4/#findComment-4335295 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted March 14, 2016 Share Posted March 14, 2016 That is certainly what the Chaos Gods wanted the traitor Primarchs to think. Good thing the current Codex Chaos Space Marines (p. 6), like almost every other Codex Chaos SPace Marines before it, tells us what actually happened. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/320247-if-guilliman-had-turned/page/4/#findComment-4335308 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dantay VI Posted March 14, 2016 Share Posted March 14, 2016 I doubt that he would go the same route as Fulgrim Guillemann wanted to create a utopia for his people and have perfectly efficient armies etc... More likely he would have turned everyone into automatons :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/320247-if-guilliman-had-turned/page/4/#findComment-4335309 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terminus Posted March 14, 2016 Share Posted March 14, 2016 That is certainly what the Chaos Gods wanted the traitor Primarchs to think. Good thing the current Codex Chaos Space Marines (p. 6), like almost every other Codex Chaos SPace Marines before it, tells us what actually happened. Except not really, it's always been very vague in the studio fluff, and all the signs and hints in the BL series points to that in fact being the case. Your page just says "the Emperor was so smart and made so many awesome things, but then mysterious crap happened and they somehow were spirited away!" Read between the lines. :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/320247-if-guilliman-had-turned/page/4/#findComment-4335347 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Memento Of Prospero Posted March 14, 2016 Share Posted March 14, 2016 That is certainly what the Chaos Gods wanted the traitor Primarchs to think. Good thing the current Codex Chaos Space Marines (p. 6), like almost every other Codex Chaos SPace Marines before it, tells us what actually happened. Except not really, it's always been very vague in the studio fluff, and all the signs and hints in the BL series points to that in fact being the case. Your page just says "the Emperor was so smart and made so many awesome things, but then mysterious crap happened and they somehow were spirited away!" Read between the lines. It's all speculation at best. The thing about 40k lore is that there is no neutral perspective for any of the mysterious fluff. It's always some with an agenda retelling the story. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/320247-if-guilliman-had-turned/page/4/#findComment-4335352 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terminus Posted March 14, 2016 Share Posted March 14, 2016 Yep, and given the number of "cwazy coincidinks!" with the Primarchs' various individual traits and the planets they landed on, I assume it's all "just as planned". Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/320247-if-guilliman-had-turned/page/4/#findComment-4335360 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted March 14, 2016 Share Posted March 14, 2016 I don't believe the Chaos powers had anything to do with the creation of the Primarchs, but I do believe they may have corrupted some of them when they were snatched from the Emperor. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/320247-if-guilliman-had-turned/page/4/#findComment-4335531 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Memento Of Prospero Posted March 14, 2016 Share Posted March 14, 2016 I don't believe the Chaos powers had anything to do with the creation of the Primarchs, but I do believe they may have corrupted some of them when they were snatched from the Emperor. Beliefs have very little argumentative value. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/320247-if-guilliman-had-turned/page/4/#findComment-4335591 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted March 14, 2016 Share Posted March 14, 2016 That is certainly what the Chaos Gods wanted the traitor Primarchs to think. Good thing the current Codex Chaos Space Marines (p. 6), like almost every other Codex Chaos SPace Marines before it, tells us what actually happened. Except not really, it's always been very vague in the studio fluff, and all the signs and hints in the BL series points to that in fact being the case. Your page just says "the Emperor was so smart and made so many awesome things, but then mysterious crap happened and they somehow were spirited away!" Read between the lines. The more recent descriptions are not as explicite as the original lore was, back in the old 'Realm of Darkness'. But at least with regard to the scattering of the Primarchs it is still clear enough: "The pinnacle of his success was the Primarch program, in which the Emperor used his own rich genetic code to create twenty super-beings, each with the strength of a dozen men and intelligence almost equal to that of the Emperor himself. These gods amongst men were masterpieces of arcane science, destined to reunite the scattered realms of Man. At the Emperor's moment of triumph, disaster struck. A msysterious Warp vortex swept up the infant Primarchs and flung them through the Immaterium far from Terra, eventually depositing them upon distant human worlds. (...) Not all was lost for the Emperor's ambitions with the disappearance of the Primarchs. He had gleaned much invaluable knowledge and data from the experiment. Using the genetic structure of the Primarchs, or 'gene-seed' as it would come to be known, the Master of Mankind created the first Space Marines." - 6th Edition Codex Chaos Space Marines, p. 6 But perhaps the 7th Edition Codex Space Marines is a bit more up to date: "Using arcane science, he created twenty beings of incredible power. Known as the Primarchs, they were born to march at their father’s side as he bestrode the stars to reunite the human race. However, the nascent Primarchs were plucked from the Emperor’s laboratory by dark forces and scattered across space. Undefeated, the Emperor used the Primarchs’ genetic records to create the Space Marine Legions – vast hosts of post-human warriors with whom he would attempt to conquer the galaxy." - 7th Edition Codex Space Marines, p. 6 I think the 7th Edition Codex Space Wolves is even more recent: "During Terra’s isolation, the Emperor had striven to create twenty superhuman beings. These Primarchs, as he called them, were genetically engineered creatures, artificial humanoids with astounding abilities. Each was created differently and with his own unique skills, powers, and in some cases, incredible psychic potential. The Primarchs were made to resemble Humankind, but many were mighty in appearance. Yet the Primarch experiment never reached its conclusion. In a disastrous incident, the nascent creatures were swept up by terrible forces that dwelt within the Warp and scattered across the stars. Rather than trying to duplicate the long and arduous work through which he had created the Primarchs, the Emperor instead used the raw material developed during the Primarch project to create the Space Marines." - 7th Edition Codex Space Wolves, 'The Primarchs' This was how the story was originally told: "THE PRIMARCHS The Emperor never made the mistake of underestimating the threat of Chaos, and in order to meet the threat he put the best scientific brains on Earth to work. Weapons and spacecraft poured out of the Martian factories to bolster the beleaguered forces throughout the galaxy. The Emperor's most long-sighted plan to counter the insiduous influences of the Chaos Powers was the creation of the Primarchs: genetically engineered super-humans with god-like powers. The Emperor's intention was to create a whole race of super-humans from the genetic blueprint of the Primarchs. By making them loyal and strong he hoped that they would prove immune to the malign psychic influences of Chaos. The Primarchs were to be shining examples of humans free from the taint of corruption. The energy of the uncorrupted warp would flow through them as it flowed through the Emperor himself, invigorating them and conferring special powers such as were possessed by the shamans of old. Unfortunately, things did not go quite according to plan. Despite the Emperor's best attempts to shield the project from the penetrating eyes of the Chaos Powers they still managed to learn of it. The Primarchs were still in their foetal stage, growing in special amniotic tanks, when the Chaos Powers combined their energies to spirit them away in an unexpectedly bold move. Even for the Chaos Powers this kidnapping represented a colossal expenditure of energy. The Primarchs were sucked through the warp and scattered on separate human worlds in distant parts of the galaxy. The Chaos Powers did not have the resources to destroy the Primarchs, but they did the next best thing which was to hide them from the Emperor. They were to remain hidden until after the waking of Slaanesh. THE SPACE MARINES The Emperor had lost the Primarchs and the first action of his renewed war against the Chaos Powers. The Primarchs could not be recreated and even if this were possible there was not time to do it. The birth pangs of Slaanesh grew louder and louder as the time of his waking grew near. The Emperor evolved another plan. Using the genetic material which had been imprinted from the Primarchs into laboratory golems, some of their qualities could be reproduced as discrete biological organs. By implanting these organs into a young growing body a person with some of the qualities of the Primarchs could be created. In this was the first Space Marine Chapters were founded." - 1st Edition 'Realm of Chaos - The Lost and the Damned', p. 177-178 The description given in the contemporary Codices is still the same story, just way less explicite, due to on the one hand to being much shorter, and on the other to be intentionally a bit more ambiguous, speaking of "mysterious forces" that stole the Primarchs, rather than explicitely stating that the Chaos Gods all combined their powers to do it. The Chaos Gods giving the traitors visions of the Primarch's supposed creation process has about as much credibility as a Fallen Angel who had not witnessed what had happened claiming that Jonson waited who would win or a Word Bearer with contempt for the Ultramarines speculating that they only grew so large because they absorbed the missing Legions. Neither of these thongs are true, but the authors like to put such things into their stories to make the fans go "huh? whoa!". 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