gabriel5885 Posted March 14, 2016 Share Posted March 14, 2016 Hi everyone, after listening "Warmaster" I've been compelled to think that Horus actually felt regret of his rebellion against his father, just by the manner hi talks about his brothers primarchs. Did anyone thinks the same? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/320352-after-listening-warmaster/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted March 14, 2016 Share Posted March 14, 2016 "Horus was weak. Horus was a fool. He had the entire galaxy in his hands, and he let it slip through his fingers." ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/320352-after-listening-warmaster/#findComment-4335485 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ezeriel Posted March 14, 2016 Share Posted March 14, 2016 I think it was more his frustration at all the failures at Istvaan, Calth and Signus Prime. As for his brothers, he called himself the master of broken monsters. Believing those that followed him were the flawed and damaged. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/320352-after-listening-warmaster/#findComment-4335708 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hesh Kadesh Posted March 15, 2016 Share Posted March 15, 2016 "Horus was weak. Horus was a fool. He had the entire galaxy in his hands, and he let it slip through his fingers." Clarified that this is the equivalent of Abaddon putting on and act and merely appealing to the vanity of the other Primarchs to get their support. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/320352-after-listening-warmaster/#findComment-4336152 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legionary Pallas Posted March 15, 2016 Share Posted March 15, 2016 "Horus was weak. Horus was a fool. He had the entire galaxy in his hands, and he let it slip through his fingers." Clarified that this is the equivalent of Abaddon putting on his Donald Trump face and merely appealing to the vanity of the other Primarchs to get their support. Great, now I will always read Abaddon's lines in Donald Trump's voice. "I am the Arch-fiend, the Despoiler of Worlds, and by my hands I will make the Eye of Terror great again!" Hmm... I just realised this makes Abaddon a double failure. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/320352-after-listening-warmaster/#findComment-4336172 Share on other sites More sharing options...
gabriel5885 Posted March 15, 2016 Author Share Posted March 15, 2016 @Hesh: Indeed he did called them "flawed and damaged". But as for the other primarchs (Corax, Roboute and Ferrus) he did actually praise them. I'm coming to think that Horus did want to ally with the other primarchs instead of the ones he had at the moment. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/320352-after-listening-warmaster/#findComment-4336818 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted March 16, 2016 Share Posted March 16, 2016 Believing those that followed him were the flawed and damaged. Let's see... Angron - crazy Curze - perhaps even crazier Fulgrim - does strange things to his men, completely converted by Slaanesh Perturabo - douchebag #1 Mortarion - seemed OK before Nurgle corruption Magnus - seemed OK as well Lorgar - devoted to Chaos, yes...damaged and broken? Not really Alpharius - doesn't seem damaged I would say Horus is largely correct. He himself is a damaged, Chaos corrupted monster as well. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/320352-after-listening-warmaster/#findComment-4337000 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DuskRaider Posted March 16, 2016 Share Posted March 16, 2016 The only reliable generals that Horus had were Mortarion and Perturabo. At this point in the war, no one knows where Magnus' loyalties lie... Alpharius is largely untrusted (for good reason) and never actually commits to the cause... while ultimately loyal to Horus, Lorgar is more interested in spreading the faith... Fulgrim and Angron are now actual monsters that, and I'm surprised it hasn't come up yet, have to rely on the Warp to stay corporeal (technically Magnus falls under this as well)... Curze I'm not sure ever really believed in Horus' war, but believed that the Imperium, his Legion, and even himself were so corrupted that they needed to be destroyed... So Horus has two relatively normal and trustworthy brothers, although as we see in Scars, Mortarion has contemplated turning on the Warmaster. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/320352-after-listening-warmaster/#findComment-4337005 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augustus Posted March 16, 2016 Share Posted March 16, 2016 Maybe that is another reason why Papa Nurgle get Mortarion? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/320352-after-listening-warmaster/#findComment-4337024 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DuskRaider Posted March 16, 2016 Share Posted March 16, 2016 Perhaps, but it would have been cool to see an entire Legion of Black Shields, more or less. I think even if Horus was successful in turning Jaghatai Khan to his cause, he would have ended up with another brother who was unreliable. Probably a cross between Mortarion and Alpharius. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/320352-after-listening-warmaster/#findComment-4337025 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted March 16, 2016 Share Posted March 16, 2016 Perhaps, but it would have been cool to see an entire Legion of Black Shields, more or less. I think even if Horus was successful in turning Jaghatai Khan to his cause, he would have ended up with another brother who was unreliable. Probably a cross between Mortarion and Alpharius. The Khan and Horus got along swimmingly when they fought together Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/320352-after-listening-warmaster/#findComment-4337098 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DuskRaider Posted March 16, 2016 Share Posted March 16, 2016 Oh I know, I more mean that the Khan had a wild independent streak. He was the master of his own destiny and he chose how to use his Legion, not the Warmaster and not the Emperor. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/320352-after-listening-warmaster/#findComment-4337153 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balthamal Posted March 16, 2016 Share Posted March 16, 2016 Not to mention the fact that the Khan was already having grave doubts about the direction of the Imperium under the Emperor, seeing the beginnings of tyranny which he was firmly set against no matter what, it's what made him want to join Horus after all. But in all seriousness, Horus definitely gimped himself with some of the brothers he had on his side. And it's pretty obvious from his musings that he thinks if he had certain brothers at Istvaan he'd have already been Emperor. I mean swap out Fulgrim/Lorgar/Alpharius for Ferrus/Corax/Vulkan and it would be a no brainer Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/320352-after-listening-warmaster/#findComment-4337160 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hesh Kadesh Posted March 16, 2016 Share Posted March 16, 2016 "Horus was weak. Horus was a fool. He had the entire galaxy in his hands, and he let it slip through his fingers." ;) For some reason, I've just thought that this works perfectly to 'he's got the whole world in his hands'. 'He's got the whole galaxy, in his hands, He's got the entire galaxy, in his hands He's got the entire galaxy, in his hands He's got the the whole galaxy in his hands... He let it slip through his fingers, in his hands, he let t slip through his fingers... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/320352-after-listening-warmaster/#findComment-4337163 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted March 16, 2016 Share Posted March 16, 2016 I'll be serious for a second... Yes, Warmaster is a lot of Horus banging his head on a wall after a hard day of dealing with the collection of nervous tics, out of control egos, and outright insanity that is Red Team, and understandably so. But I think he's looking at his brothers on Blue Team through very rose colored glasses. He says that Corax would have been cleverer than Alpharius, wouldn't have made such errors. I say he needs to read Deliverance Lost. He bemoans the lack of Guilliman and Lion'El Johnson on his side, I look over at Ultramar and see them at each others throats, only uniting when the Night Haunter kicks them both in the teeth and forces them into it. And so on, and so forth. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/320352-after-listening-warmaster/#findComment-4337302 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legionary Pallas Posted March 16, 2016 Share Posted March 16, 2016 Most of the primarchs are just broken, pathetic things without the Emperor. Their faster growth rate may be their downfall and they never had the chance to grow up and become balanced individuals, as regular people do. For the most part, the primarchs are just children, who argue and bicker as children are prone to do, but without a parental figure to guide them or end their disputes, they just continue the cycle, over and over and over again. But at the same time they are powerful warriors, generals and politicians. Put yourself in a situation where all of mankind was almost entirely controlled by 18 incredibly powerful children, most of which never had a true parental figure. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/320352-after-listening-warmaster/#findComment-4337345 Share on other sites More sharing options...
gabriel5885 Posted March 16, 2016 Author Share Posted March 16, 2016 @Pallas: I still think that some of the primarchs did barely well, on both sides of the heresy, just barely... I can't even imagine how things would had turned if chaos couldn't separate baby primarchs from the emperor, do any of you has an idea? For some reason I still think that the defects of each primarch would have sent all of the vision of the emperor tumbling down. Would like to know your opinion Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/320352-after-listening-warmaster/#findComment-4337559 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DuskRaider Posted March 16, 2016 Share Posted March 16, 2016 I don't think so. Some of the most damaged Primarchs were only that way due to the planet they landed on. Angron wouldn't have the Nails in his head, Curze would probably be somewhat adjusted, Mortarion would be a normal dude, and perhaps Perturabo wouldn't be so paranoid. All of the Primarchs would probably be much more similar than they are now. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/320352-after-listening-warmaster/#findComment-4337598 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted March 16, 2016 Share Posted March 16, 2016 Well, the one Primarch who was basically raised by the Emperor was Horus. And look how that turned out. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/320352-after-listening-warmaster/#findComment-4337620 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenith Posted March 16, 2016 Share Posted March 16, 2016 Horus started the war thinking his brothers would join his cause. Only the insane ones did. He starts to doubt his cause, as the brothers he admires are arrayed against him But it's too late to turn back. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/320352-after-listening-warmaster/#findComment-4337655 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flint13 Posted March 16, 2016 Share Posted March 16, 2016 I think it looks very polar bc Horus is frustrated and its making the entire thing incredibly biased. I think Wade has a point about viewing the Loyal Primarchs through rose colored glasses. Literally every single Primarch is broken in some fundamental way. It's the very essence of their existence. And Horus is angry. He's frustrated bc this campaign has not gotten off to the swift, lethal start he wanted it to. Remember his original plan was to annihilate any serious opposition in the loyalist legions early on so he has no real legion based opponents when he moves on Terra. There have been an incredible number of setbacks starting with the discovery of his plot, warning the loyalist elements and Angron's descent to Isstvan III. A lengthy engagement that turned into when it was supposed to be essentially an easy clean-up maneuver to get things started on the right track. He's completely overlooking things that have gone right for him. Imagine if Alpharius hadn't (probably, maybe) turned to Horus's cause? Or Perturabo? If 'Turbs had stayed loyal, the Heresy would have been over at Isstvan V bc Perturabo would have just blown the planet into its constituting nucleotides, which is a perfectly acceptable trade for... What like four enemy Primarchs? When you have a crap day at work, you typically don't focus on the good things that happen in the sea of stuff going wrong. I think it's the same here. Horus just had a crappy day at the office. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/320352-after-listening-warmaster/#findComment-4337708 Share on other sites More sharing options...
gabriel5885 Posted March 16, 2016 Author Share Posted March 16, 2016 @Flint: LOL, I've just picture a sweating Horus entering his chambers in shirt, tie and dress pants throwing his coat on a sofa and muttering "damned coworkers" or something along those lines. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/320352-after-listening-warmaster/#findComment-4337800 Share on other sites More sharing options...
A D-B Posted March 16, 2016 Share Posted March 16, 2016 I think it looks very polar bc Horus is frustrated and its making the entire thing incredibly biased. I think Wade has a point about viewing the Loyal Primarchs through rose colored glasses. ... When you have a crap day at work, you typically don't focus on the good things that happen in the sea of stuff going wrong. I think it's the same here. Horus just had a crappy day at the office. I mentioned this at the last HH meeting I was at, a couple of years ago, and John's short - Warmaster - came up on this very topic. I mentioned that we should be careful about presenting all of the Traitor Primarchs as somehow worse or weaker (since they're ultimately not) and avoid too much of Horus's/Chaos's regret at "not getting the ones they really wanted", which was a theme I thought we should avoid. Like how he was jealous of Sanguinius, or complained he had all the broken primarchs, or how Khorne really wanted the Blood Angels instead of the World Eaters, and so on. There's a balance on this stuff, always worth bearing in mind. I think Flint's point is a good one. LATE-BREAKING EDIT: I should add for clarity that I'm not criticising 'Warmaster' here. It's my second-fave short in the HH Series (sorry, J-dawg; 'Honour to the Dead' is still #1) but when we had this discussion at the meeting, it was about the direction going forward so we didn't double-down on it too much. Horus's perspective at a low ebb is a good story; Horus/Chaos literally sailing to Terra with nothing but a bag of silver medals would be a disingenuous/controversial/arguable claim. And Marshal, hopefully to your delight, we talked about loyalist balance and victories, too. That's come up a bunch of times, as will be evident with the Heresy moving forward past Imperium Secundus. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/320352-after-listening-warmaster/#findComment-4337835 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terminus Posted March 16, 2016 Share Posted March 16, 2016 Not to mention the fact that the Khan was already having grave doubts about the direction of the Imperium under the Emperor, seeing the beginnings of tyranny which he was firmly set against no matter what, it's what made him want to join Horus after all. But in all seriousness, Horus definitely gimped himself with some of the brothers he had on his side. And it's pretty obvious from his musings that he thinks if he had certain brothers at Istvaan he'd have already been Emperor. I mean swap out Fulgrim/Lorgar/Alpharius for Ferrus/Corax/Vulkan and it would be a no brainer What the hell did I just read? Alpharius and his network of informants, his planning, and the destabilizing effect his agents had on many worlds that turned them to the Warmaster's cause before they even showed up, was instrumental to the Warmaster's early successes. This is including the Istvaan campaign, the total crippling of the Raven Guard, probably the whole manipulation of Valdor/Russ leading up to the destruction of Prospero, and the near annihilation of the Space Wolves until that whole "Ramilles Star Fort in a hat!" surprise. The Alpha Legion was his biggest asset until apparently they split and started working at cross purposes (come oooon Seventh Serpent). And to replace him with Vulkan, who is depicted as a literal braying idiot? All I can do is laugh. A loyalist, sane Fulgrim is no less valuable than Ferrus, so that's an even swap. Corax's Legion would be far more helpful than Lorgar's fanatics though, like they were before Corax was found and Horus used them as an extension of his own Legion. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/320352-after-listening-warmaster/#findComment-4337846 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted March 16, 2016 Share Posted March 16, 2016 I think it looks very polar bc Horus is frustrated and its making the entire thing incredibly biased. I think Wade has a point about viewing the Loyal Primarchs through rose colored glasses. ... When you have a crap day at work, you typically don't focus on the good things that happen in the sea of stuff going wrong. I think it's the same here. Horus just had a crappy day at the office. I mentioned this at the last HH meeting I was at, a couple of years ago, and John's short - Warmaster - came up on this very topic. I mentioned that we should be careful about presenting all of the Traitor Primarchs as somehow worse or weaker (since they're ultimately not) and avoid too much of Horus's/Chaos's regret at "not getting the ones they really wanted", which was a theme I thought we should avoid. Like how he was jealous of Sanguinius, or complained he had all the broken primarchs, or how Khorne really wanted the Blood Angels instead of the World Eaters, and so on. There's a balance on this stuff, always worth bearing in mind. I think Flint's point is a good one. They can't really be worse/weaker when the traitors spend 7 years consistently outperforming the loyalists. The reasons why are irrelevant when the results speak for themselves. The focus should be on showcasing the loyalists skill and generalship in the face of the traitor advance. Which, incidentally, is also the reason 40k struggles. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/320352-after-listening-warmaster/#findComment-4337881 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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