After listening "Warmaster"

[depthcharge12]

 

Not to mention the fact that the Khan was already having grave doubts about the direction of the Imperium under the Emperor, seeing the beginnings of tyranny which he was firmly set against no matter what, it's what made him want to join Horus after all.

 

But in all seriousness, Horus definitely gimped himself with some of the brothers he had on his side. And it's pretty obvious from his musings that he thinks if he had certain brothers at Istvaan he'd have already been Emperor. I mean swap out Fulgrim/Lorgar/Alpharius for Ferrus/Corax/Vulkan and it would be a no brainer

What the hell did I just read? Alpharius and his network of informants, his planning, and the destabilizing effect his agents had on many worlds that turned them to the Warmaster's cause before they even showed up, was instrumental to the Warmaster's early successes. This is including the Istvaan campaign, the total crippling of the Raven Guard, probably the whole manipulation of Valdor/Russ leading up to the destruction of Prospero, and the near annihilation of the Space Wolves until that whole "Ramilles Star Fort in a hat!" surprise.

*squints and spit tobacco into a spittoon*

 

"You dissin' mah Star Forts bwoy? Them's fightin words."

[Balthamal]

Not to mention the fact that the Khan was already having grave doubts about the direction of the Imperium under the Emperor, seeing the beginnings of tyranny which he was firmly set against no matter what, it's what made him want to join Horus after all.

But in all seriousness, Horus definitely gimped himself with some of the brothers he had on his side. And it's pretty obvious from his musings that he thinks if he had certain brothers at Istvaan he'd have already been Emperor. I mean swap out Fulgrim/Lorgar/Alpharius for Ferrus/Corax/Vulkan and it would be a no brainer

What the hell did I just read? Alpharius and his network of informants, his planning, and the destabilizing effect his agents had on many worlds that turned them to the Warmaster's cause before they even showed up, was instrumental to the Warmaster's early successes. This is including the Istvaan campaign, the total crippling of the Raven Guard, probably the whole manipulation of Valdor/Russ leading up to the destruction of Prospero, and the near annihilation of the Space Wolves until that whole "Ramilles Star Fort in a hat!" surprise.

The Alpha Legion was his biggest asset until apparently they split and started working at cross purposes (come oooon Seventh Serpent). And to replace him with Vulkan, who is depicted as a literal braying idiot? All I can do is laugh. A loyalist, sane Fulgrim is no less valuable than Ferrus, so that's an even swap. Corax's Legion would be far more helpful than Lorgar's fanatics though, like they were before Corax was found and Horus used them as an extension of his own Legion.

Edit : turned down dick level 10 retorts.

In all seriousness, we don't know the Alphas did all that. Istvaan III? Nothing to do with them. Prospero? Horus himself states that he got in Russ' ear and (helped unwittingly by Valdor) signed the death warrant of the XV Legion. Istvaan V? It's hinted, never explicitly stated that Alpharius had a hand in the planning but that's it. And the Space Wolves? Fresh from the most brutal action they've ever been through? Against a fresh Legion? Come on now. ANY Legion would be heavy favourites to come out on top in those circumstances. There's hints aplenty but there's nothing concrete there to elevate the XXth to the level of Horus personal Dues Ex Machina.

And you're illustrating my point perfectly. The Alpha Legion weren't trustworthy in the slightest, If the material that is out there currently, they had the data from the Primarch project and kept it from Horus, half of them were balls out looking to make sure the Emperor won after all, it's almost like every action they took which benefited Horus had an equal and opposite action to his detriment. Fulgrim wasn't sane, he was bat crazy, so Ferrus is a significant upgrade. Vulkan or Corax would have been infinitely more preferable to Lorgar although granted, without Lorgar and the whole Warp shenanigans, it's likely the war wouldn't have gone quite so well.

And like Flint says, this is Horus thinking whilst having a proper hissy fit. If the 7 of his brothers who willingly joined him were all on the same page and following his direction without question he wouldn't be sitting wondering where it went wrong. Would Ferrus ultimately be better than Fulgrim? Who knows. We haven't seen Daemon Fulgrim and the III Legion do anything meaningful during their "excess" phase. One angle that's been mooted since the last BL Weekender is that when they finally decide to chase perfection in war everything goes to for everyone else. Like most of the bits and pieces that are out there focusing on the Primarchs, it's all (even more so than regular characters) at the mercy of their prejudices

[Terminus]

*squints and spit tobacco into a spittoon*

"You dissin' mah Star Forts bwoy? Them's fightin words."

Not at all, I just think they'd probably be more useful somewhere other than a random empty nebula in the middle of friggin' nowhere. They were probably steered there by Alpharius decades prior, so he had an excuse not to finish off Russ to give to Horus. Just as planned...!!! One of these days they will probably do a Mandarin-esque reveal with Alpharius that takes him from master manipulator to just some stoned actor with bad gas.

Edit : turned down dick level 10 retorts.

Much appreciated. Otherwise flint would nuke the post, and I wouldn't be able to tell you how wrong you are.

In all seriousness, we don't know the Alphas did all that. Istvaan III? Nothing to do with them. Prospero? Horus himself states that he got in Russ' ear and (helped unwittingly by Valdor) signed the death warrant of the XV Legion. Istvaan V? It's hinted, never explicitly stated that Alpharius had a hand in the planning but that's it. And the Space Wolves? Fresh from the most brutal action they've ever been through? Against a fresh Legion? Come on now. ANY Legion would be heavy favourites to come out on top in those circumstances. There's hints aplenty but there's nothing concrete there to elevate the XXth to the level of Horus personal Dues Ex Machina.

We don't know. That's the point. Also, only suckers fight fair (like Russ).

And you're illustrating my point perfectly. The Alpha Legion weren't trustworthy in the slightest, If the material that is out there currently, they had the data from the Primarch project and kept it from Horus, half of them were balls out looking to make sure the Emperor won after all, it's almost like every action they took which benefited Horus had an equal and opposite action to his detriment. Fulgrim wasn't sane, he was bat crazy, so Ferrus is a significant upgrade. Vulkan or Corax would have been infinitely more preferable to Lorgar although granted, without Lorgar and the whole Warp shenanigans, it's likely the war wouldn't have gone quite so well.

If we're being honest, Deliverance Lost was written by Gav Thorpe, whose writing is unilaterally awful. I mean, really, in a couple of weeks of researching the Emperor's notes, Corax is able to produce perfect marines in a fraction of the time that can rofl-stomp veterans with centuries of experience on their first day of training? Ugh. ADB, if you're still reading, pass on to Gav that your morning bowel movement is more interesting and less soggy reading material than anything Gav ever put down in novel form (and then give him a pat on the back for the good background work on the Inquisition, so he doesn't feel too bad. but then turn around and remind him that was 20 years ago and laugh a lot).

You may have to clarify your criteria. Are we talking Horus is the traitor and just different Primarchs turned traitor? If so, Ferrus could easily be the Laer-sword-possessed nutjob. If we're talking Horus is now Dorn, and the same division of Primarchs occurs, a loyal, sane Fulgrim should be by all accounts a great asset. Lorgar's Ruinstorm is the only thing that gave Horus initiative.

And like Flint says, this is Horus thinking whilst having a proper hissy fit. If the 7 of his brothers who willingly joined him were all on the same page and following his direction without question he wouldn't be sitting wondering where it went wrong. Would Ferrus ultimately be better than Fulgrim? Who knows. We haven't seen Daemon Fulgrim and the III Legion do anything meaningful during their "excess" phase. One angle that's been mooted since the last BL Weekender is that when they finally decide to chase perfection in war everything goes to for everyone else. Like most of the bits and pieces that are out there focusing on the Primarchs, it's all (even more so than regular characters) at the mercy of their prejudices

At this point we have to wonder if Horus is sane. Once you let the corruption in, it's a pretty quick decline (much like Dark Jedi go from "I'm just doing what's necessary even if it's unpleasant" to force-choking Fluffy for peeing on the rug in like 5 minutes flat). He probably does have brief moments of lucidity where he's like, what have I gotten myself into? I think the irony of that monologue is that he's the most flawed and broken monster of them all.

[Loesh]

I think it looks very polar bc Horus is frustrated and its making the entire thing incredibly biased. I think Wade has a point about viewing the Loyal Primarchs through rose colored glasses.

...

When you have a crap day at work, you typically don't focus on the good things that happen in the sea of stuff going wrong. I think it's the same here. Horus just had a crappy day at the office.

I mentioned this at the last HH meeting I was at, a couple of years ago, and John's short - Warmaster - came up on this very topic. I mentioned that we should be careful about presenting all of the Traitor Primarchs as somehow worse or weaker (since they're ultimately not) and avoid too much of Horus's/Chaos's regret at "not getting the ones they really wanted", which was a theme I thought we should avoid. Like how he was jealous of Sanguinius, or complained he had all the broken primarchs, or how Khorne really wanted the Blood Angels instead of the World Eaters, and so on.

There's a balance on this stuff, always worth bearing in mind.

I think Flint's point is a good one.

Agreed with both actually, it's all a delicate balancing act. All the Primarchs are really cool and their individual flaws and strengths are the galaxy shaping imprints that make their respective legions so unique. It's why I always sigh whenever someone makes a thread about 'My Primarch can beat up your Primarch' because it so radically misses the point of them and their collective footprint in the history of the Imperium.

Though Fulgrim is still my babe.

[b1soul]

the near annihilation of the Space Wolves until that whole "Ramilles Star Fort in a hat!" surprise.

LOL...good one

[Augustus]

Why can't some legions be better than some? It doesn't take away from their interesting facets or value? Plus as Wade said he's just frustrated. While Corax will tell you his plan, Alpharius will tell you his plan as equally as he will tell you a plan that is false or none at all. The World Eaters can be expected to hold a garrison? Maybe. If they don't come running out of the place their defending in some blood lust due their semi-lobotomized brains. The Emperor's children? They might rather mutilate mortals (as seen during the Siege of Terra) than prosecute a fight that they don't feel gives them enough sensation. So while yes, I do think all Primarchs are broken; some and their Legions are most assuredly more broken than others. This is IMO OK because it is still interesting. Their are times that their brokenness might be useful too. But when prosecuting a galactic war it might be more useful to have troops that are more reliable. But Horus is also working with old info. His impression of the loyal Primarchs might be biased to their pre heresy characters.

 

 

edit- crazy amount of errors due to lack of proofreading. Apologies.

[Rob P]

I like the fact that Isstvan III/V seems to be the most united that the traitor primarchs are once the heresy kicks off.

 

It really doesn't take long for the cracks to show, because they all have different agendas (rather than some being better than others). It's not even clear exactly what Horus hoped to achieve through the heresy.

 

I don't know what actually happened to Horus when he went through the portal at Molech. Even if it's taken at face value I liked the fact that Little Horus heard whispers of 'Horus is weak, Horus is a fool'. I think it goes further than foreshadowing Abaddon's famous line and, in fact, hints strongly that chaos is not helping Horus for the reasons that were said in False Gods. Molech may also be the point where Horus is really starting to get blinded by chaos (up until then he has done quite well in keeping chaos to the periphery).

[Calas Typhon]

I like the fact that Isstvan III/V seems to be the most united that the traitor primarchs are once the heresy kicks off.

 

It really doesn't take long for the cracks to show, because they all have different agendas (rather than some being better than others). It's not even clear exactly what Horus hoped to achieve through the heresy.

 

I don't know what actually happened to Horus when he went through the portal at Molech. Even if it's taken at face value I liked the fact that Little Horus heard whispers of 'Horus is weak, Horus is a fool'. I think it goes further than foreshadowing Abaddon's famous line and, in fact, hints strongly that chaos is not helping Horus for the reasons that were said in False Gods. Molech may also be the point where Horus is really starting to get blinded by chaos (up until then he has done quite well in keeping chaos to the periphery).

 

Well until then it seemed that Horus just used Chaos as a tool and a new found thing to use in his vengeance against the Emperor. Seeing the future that would happen (as I gathered) really turned him against the Emperor, but ofc Chaos manifest missed out the part where he would have to betray the Emperor for that future.

 

I view it as he was influenced by Chaos from this point, it was the very start of his journey to ruin, even after Isstvan III he was not exactly what we see by 40k standards as corrupted by Chaos. Not until Molech did we really see that whole corrupted tyrant we see by the time of Terra in the books anyway. So he was pretty blinded in my eyes from the start with his wounding, but it got worse as the Heresy continued.

 

This links into my point about this audiobook.

 

Here we have the Warmaster, thrown away his ties to the Imperium, joined in his battle against the Emperor by his brothers, who most by this point were bitter at the Imperium. I do not believe that he has any regret for his turning, in fact as I have pointed above, I believe he has already been blinded and influenced by Chaos. I do also believe that he has regrets on how he handled some of the Primarchs and not moving some of the other Primarchs to his cause. Ferrus as a prime example, I bet he has some serious damned regrets about sending Fulgrim to convert him. Due to stupid gambits or placing too much trust in other Primarchs he has damaged his march on Terra. And seeing the Primarchs he has and the position he is in at the time of the Audiobook, he is starting to think what would happen if, or would it be better if different Primarchs had turned against the Emperor.

 

Does he regret turning? No, in fact I believe he never had any regrets until the very end just before the Emperor turned him into rorschach from Watchmen.

[Marshal Rohr]

Why can't some legions be better than some? It doesn't take asset from their interesting facets or value? Plus as Wade said he's just frustrated. While Corax will tell you his plan Alpharius will tell you his plan as equally as he will tell you a plan that is false or none at all. The world eaters can be expected to hold a garrison? Maybe. If they don't come running out of the place their defending in some blood lust? The Emperor's children? They might rather mutilate mortals than prosecute a fight that they don't feel gives them enough sensation. So while yes I to think all Primarchs are broken some and their legionsare most assuredly more broken than others. This order OK though as it is interesting. Their age times that their brokenness might be useful too. But when prosecuting a galactic war it might be more useful to have troops that are more reliable. But horrid is also working with old info. His impression of the loyal Primarchs might be biased to their pre heresy characters.

I think the 'better' ADB was referencing was the objective better, instead of the subjective better. Like the Imperial Fists are subjectively the best legion for naval combat, but not objectively the best legion for naval combat. So they don't want the loyalists to objectively better and the traitors objectively worse, and instead both sides are subjectively better and subjectively worse at different times.

 

There was even a blurb in extermination that pointed this out. Using the IW fleet as an example, their ships were exactly the wrong type of ship they needed to fight the defense Polux had organized, but later in the heresy the exact right ship to completely obliterate a loyalist fleet defending a key world.

[Augustus]

 

 

I think the 'better' ADB was referencing was the objective better, instead of the subjective better. Like the Imperial Fists are subjectively the best legion for naval combat, but not objectively the best legion for naval combat. So they don't want the loyalists to objectively better and the traitors objectively worse, and instead both sides are subjectively better and subjectively worse at different times.

 

There was even a blurb in extermination that pointed this out. Using the IW fleet as an example, their ships were exactly the wrong type of ship they needed to fight the defense Polux had organized, but later in the heresy the exact right ship to completely obliterate a loyalist fleet defending a key world.

 

Ah, gotcha. Thanks! 

I loved this audio drama. My favorite thing from the Heresy. I loved how the tension descended and then rose. "Because all disaster serves me alone." Quoting from memory but that is so awesome. 

[b1soul]

Why can't some legions be better than some?

Each legion has strengths, weaknesses.

 

Thus, if a situation favours one legion's strengths, that legion woild indeed be "better" in that situation

[Hergrmir]

Well, it seems offhand to me that given the way the HH plays out, you need the traitors to have certain kinds of weaknesses to balance out their strengths. The latter are considerable - surprise, betrayal, the warp, extra soldiers in the form of the Warp, etc. etc. The imperium is decentralised enough that Horus can get enough systems on board to give the Loyalists a run for their mone. Those aren't weaknesses in "who can beat up whom" sort of way though, but it's precisely that they're fractious, disunited, and work at cross purposes that gives the Loyalists a fighting chance.

 

Now, I think in very broad strokes I'd have preferred the HH to be more of a mundane civil war for longer rather than very quickly go all tentacled, but spilled milk, crying etc etc. Flint's Word Bearers are interesting to be precisely for that. Sure, deep down they're complete fanatics with absolutely different ideas of what the world should be and what the world is, and no amount of reasoning is going to get them to shift. But it seems like it would take a while for them to sprout horns and start building altars out of babies.

 

But you could imagine a scenario in which Horus' fall is a lot less obvious, and the overtures he makes to the other primarchs are less "hey bro, we're really being screwed by the old man so let's break ALL the rules" and more "hey, those ideals you have - shouldn't we do more to meet them?" That might have prompted some slow sliding into disagreement and dissent and then rebellion on the parts of folks like Guilliman, Sanguinius, Ferrus, etc. I think you could, at the time of the great crusade, divide up the primarchs between hypocritical utopians and savage demigods, and Horus ultimately pitched his case to to the latter. Whether the former would have succeeded where the latter didn't, I don't know.

 

"Just as planned" Tzeentch says, twirling its moustache. Or is it?