Who conquered the most worlds? UM or SoH?

[Legatus]

For future reference, since another topic was just locked because I had elaborated on this point in it.

 

On occasion the question is being raised which of the Legions or Primarchs managed to conquer the most worlds of them all. While there is one source that claimed it was the Sons of Horus, most sources generally state that it was the Ultramarines.

These are the official references to a Legion/primarch having "conquered/liberated the most worlds" that I am aware of:

 

 

1995 - (2nd Edition) Codex Ultramarines, p. 12:

"[Guilliman's] chief talents, as ever, lay in war, and he soon led the Ultramarines to fresh conquests in the galactic south. He succeeded in liberating more worlds during the Great Crusade than any other Primarch, and the worlds he brought within the Imperium were to benefit from his organisational skills and passion for efficient government.

Whenever Roboute Guilliman freed a world from the tyranny of Orks, Chaos or other aliens, his first priority was to set uo a self-supporting defence system. Once a world was safe he could move on, leaving behind enough advisers to ensure that industry would be created, trading routes set up with the Imperium, and government directed towards the prosperity of the people. In this way the Ultramarines could conquer worlds faster than any other Space Marine Legion."

 

2002 - (3rd Edition) Index Astartes Sons of Horus, 'Beliefs':

"The overriding belief of the Legion prior to the Warmaster's demise was in the ultimate superiority of Horus and themselves. In continually seeking to prove themselves as the greatest Legion, they did indeed achieved most in terms of sheer number of worlds brought into the Imperial fold prior to the Heresy."

 

2008 - (5th Edition) Codex Space Marines, p. 13:

"Guilliman's chief talents, as ever, lay in war, and he led the Ultramarines to fresh conquests in the galactic south. succeeded in liberating more worlds during the Great Crusade than any other Primarch, and the worlds he brought within the Imperium were to benefit from his organisational skills and passion for efficient government."

 

2012 - (6th Edition) Warhammer 40,000 Rulebook, p. 187:

"From the fledgling days of the Imperium, when they liberated more planets during the Great Crusade than any other Legion, to more recently, when they alone held the foe at bay at the beginning of the Tyrannic Wars, the Ultramarines have covered themselves in glory."

 

2014 - (7th Edition) Warhammer 40,000 Background Book, 'Space Marines - Ultramarines':

"From the fledgling days of the Imperium, when they liberated more planets during the Great Crusade than any other Legion, to more recently, when they alone held the foe at bay at the beginning of the Tyrannic Wars, the Ultramarines have covered themselves in glory."

 

The Forgeworld books are a bit more restrained when it comes to such high praise for the Legions:

 

HH1: Betrayal, p. 68-69:

"[The Luna Wolves'] victories were manifold and Horus' generalship was legend, and so it was that the respect of their brother Legions rose to almost unrivalled heights. (...)

Horus' charisma and unequalled record lent him a measure of respect unrivalled among his brother Primarchs (...)

Horus was said by some to be without peer beneath the Emperor."

 

HH5: Tempest, p. 79:

"During this period, the Ultramarines, by some records, succeeded in liberating more worlds than any other single Primarch's forces, and the planets Roboute Guilliman brought within the Imperium always benefitted from his intense passion for efficient and ordered government."

 

 

 

As far as I know the passage from the 1995 Codex Ultramarines is the first claim for a Legion to have liberated or conquered the most. It is worth noting that the description not only makes such a claim, but also explains the exact means of how they were able to accomplish it. Also note how "liberating" worlds and "conquering" worlds (or "freeing" them) is used interchangeably. Makes sense, since both imply a military conflict in order to claim the world for the Imperium. The difference is that "liberation" implies that the people were glad and waiting for it, while "conquering" could also include worlds that were resentful after being taken for the Imeperium. I suspect the different phrases are used in that text for the sake of variety.

 

The Index Astartes article of the Sons of Horus then made a different claim. I find it worth pointing out that both this article as well as the Alpha Legion article were both written by the same author, who as far as I can see had never produced anything else for GW. Both the Sons of Horus and the Alpha Legion article seem to display a certain lack of familiarity with the lore of the Ultramarines. The Sons of Horus article claims, contrary to the previous source (and later sources) that it was the Sons of Horus who "brought the most worlds into the Imperial fold". The Alpha Legion Index Astartes article described the Codex doctrine as "anathema to Alpharius' ideas of adaptability and initiative" (whereas previous sources had noted the Codex's encouraging of initiative and described the Ultramarines as the most flexible of all the Chapters), implies that the Ultramarines have trouble coping with dense mountainous terrain (the kind of terrain where their fortress monastery on Macragge is located, and the kind of terrain where Roboute Guilliman fought his very first, brilliant, campaign), and states that the Ultramarines Legion and the Alpha Legion have "of course" very similar numbers of Thunderhawk Gunships, so none could gain an aerial superiority on Eskrador (even though the Ultramarines are famously the by far largest and an excellently supplied Legion). So even before later sources would once again state that the Ultramarines liberated the most worlds I found the Sons of Horus article a bit dubious.

 

The 5th Edition Codex Space Marines repeats the segment from the 2nd Edition Codex Ultramarines, but regrettably omits the explanation of how the Legion was able to conquer worlds faster than the other Legions.

 

The 6th and 7th Edition Rulebook passages are the same, and not very elaborate. They are quite explicite in their claim though.

 

In Tempest, Forgeworld was careful to downplay the accomplishments of the Ultramarines. There are almost no direct comparisons of their performance compared to the performance of other Legions, as were often found in older sources. The passage about them liberating the most worlds is taken from 2nd Edition, but it is weakened by qualifying that this claim was only made "by some reports".

On the other hand, the praise for the Sons of Horus is not quite as unequivocal either, their reputation being qualified as  "said by some" or "almost unrivalled".

 

 

It would be an omission to not mention the passage about who achieved the "most victories", which first appeared in the 2nd Edition Codex Angels of Death (p. 67) and was repeated in almost every other Codex Dark Angels thereafter:

 

"If Jonson was quiet he was also brave and a mighty leader of men. During the Great Crusade only he and Horus achieved a greater tally of victories than Russ. Russ, ever concerned with his honour and good name, and ever keen to tell the noble saga of his deeds, found this exasperating."

 

So apparently there is a difference between the amount of victories achieved and the worlds liberated. Every destroyed alien fleet, and every vanquished alien world would be a victory, but not an additional liberated world. Similarly, if an already liberated world was attacked by xenos and had to be defended, that too would be another victory, but not another liberated world. Since the Ultramarines were said to ensure that their liberated worlds were well defended, and on the other hand the worlds the Sons of Horus liberated were described as often with destroyed infrastructure and military or rebellious elements left (SoH IA), the Sons of Horus would have had to revisit their liberated worlds for additional fighting on more occasions than the Ultramarines would have had to.

I should perhaps also mention that the Space Wolves Codices since 2nd Edition have given a very different explanation for the two Primarch's animosity.

[Seahawk]

The entry about Horus conquering more may have been true. "By some records" leaves it open for the potential, but I always believed it was the UM that did the mostest the bestest, which was why Horus feared their might and kept them going deep south, away from his scheming.

 

Even if Horus did conquer more worlds, he'd leave them shattered wrecks, so that it could have been more planets conquered, but fewer useful worlds for the Imperium.

[Marshal Rohr]

But Legs, you forgot Dorn victories being second only to Horus :P

[Legatus]

Who was that from? McNeill? Abnett?

[Marshal Rohr]

Abnett, your favorite. You didn't even mention Dorn's interstellar empire or his penchant for building up conquered worlds with self defense and government.

[Legatus]

And if I remember correctly, Dorn was said to be a peerless strategist, similar to Guilliman, but only Dorn possessed the "spark of brilliance". Truly, the HH Dorn is a magnificent fellow. And the Black Templars were not the unhinged overzealous brethren of the Scouring, no, they were the bestest of the bestest Elite formation of the Imperial Fists Legion. Dorn was also the first to be given overall command of all Imperial forces. AND he was in charge of the defence of the Imperial Palace (in 2nd that was Sanguinius). At this point the HH Imperial Fists are hardly recognisable from their previous description.

[Marshal Rohr]

Did you see that they will be doing a Scouring series? I'm calling it now, they've been dropping the hints consistently, but they are setting up for Dorn and Guilliman to be Captain America and Iron Man. That's why they've changed so much.

[Legatus]

Ah, didn't hear that about the Scouring series. I bet they let McNeill write about how Guilliman wants to force the Codex on everyone, even though it is demonstrated repeatedly that it doesn't work.

[Marshal Rohr]

Forge World is running the show. It's a series like the Heresy.

[Ishagu]

The Ultras conquered the most, and generally performed best in the Great Crusade.

It's mentioned multiple times in various sources that on merit alone, Guilliman would have been Warmaster.

 

Of course, strategy, efficiency and generalship aren't enough. The Warmaster needed Charisma and tact by which to keep his brothers happy and in line. We all know Guilliman falls short in that regard.

[shandwen]

Horus might have conquered the most, especially with how many legions were under his control until they found thier primarchs, and proved their ability.

The big G's legion may very well have conquered the most as a legion, but horus often had other legions.

[Marshal Loss]

Agree with the OP, I believe Horus conquered more, but often his victories were tearing the throat out of his enemies and leaving a stunned populace sitting behind. Guilliman wasn't the type to leave a world shattered in his wake; but in terms of the sheer scope of victories Horus stands alone.

[DuskRaider]

The only reason the Ultramarines would have conquered more is because of their larger number. Otherwise I'd give it to the Warmaster's own.

[Terminus]

Can't we just say it was a close tie?

 

Also, we're talking about conquered worlds, which by Guilliman's metric is compliance and self-sufficiency as quoted. Perhaps by those metrics he is indeed the best.

 

But what if we count all the worlds Horus decided to obliterate, as was his occasional penchant?

 

Also, lol @ Dorn. What a clown. :D

[Augustus]

They both probably had different classifications of constituted as "liberated". 

I'm sure the Soh would show up kill the Big Boss of the planet and move on leaving the clean up work or smaller fighting to other "lesser" legions. Some might have set the SoH liberated them (including the Legionaries themeselves) but the the other legion's might have went planet to planet asserting the rule of the Imperium.

A classification system like that would perhaps allow the SoH and DA to be 1st and second in victories? 

[b1soul]

Dorn's interstellar empire

I thought Dorn's Inwit empire was merely interplanetary but he had access to interstellar ships

[Azkaellon3]

I'd say ultramarines liberated the most worlds.

Liberation also in form of "hey we got a pretty neat empire, wanna join?".

 

Whereas the sons conquered the most world. Because I don't think the sons meet many world that were like "awesome you're here! Can we join?".

[Marshal Rohr]

 

Dorn's interstellar empire

I thought Dorn's Inwit empire was merely interplanetary but he had access to interstellar ships

 

 

Inwit Cluster, not system.

[Brother Pheidias]

It's worth noting that older Dark Angels material also puts the Lions' tally of victories as only being surpassed by Horus, and the main reason he wasn't made Warmaster was his difficulty in getting along with his brothers. There's so many conflicting descriptions, many probably biased accounts from the Legions themselves

[rendingon1+]

And if I remember correctly, Dorn was said to be a peerless strategist, similar to Guilliman, but only Dorn possessed the "spark of brilliance".

I'm sure it was about the Lion. Probably in Scars.

[Balthamal]

Can we agree it's really close and open to a huge amount of interpretation? And plenty of Legion bias. My only issue with taking things in a codex as gospel (and this is something that Alan Bligh mentioned when talking about information in the HH volumes themselves) is that the codexes are presenting a point of view 10,000 years old. Some facts will obviously carry down through the years but I don't imagine that being one of them. In any case, would a loyalist admit their Primarch was second best to a traitor? 

 

The fact that saying Primarch A had conquests/victories/liberated worlds straight away leaves a lot of scope for just what that could constitute without breaking those generic tropes down further when each different one is likely to present a different "winner"

[rendingon1+]

Not to mention that Horus' 'Worlds Conquered' tally is still growing because of Dark Compliance. :)

[Hesh Kadesh]

Only you care, Legatus. You are quoting sources that are at parts 20 years out of date.

 

The official answer is 'nobody knows' because accounts can be skewed one way or the other.

 

Good grief.

[Kol Saresk]

Can we agree it's really close and open to a huge amount of interpretation? And plenty of Legion bias. My only issue with taking things in a codex as gospel (and this is something that Alan Bligh mentioned when talking about information in the HH volumes themselves) is that the codexes are presenting a point of view 10,000 years old. Some facts will obviously carry down through the years but I don't imagine that being one of them. In any case, would a loyalist admit their Primarch was second best to a traitor?

 

The fact that saying Primarch A had conquests/victories/liberated worlds straight away leaves a lot of scope for just what that could constitute without breaking those generic tropes down further when each different one is likely to present a different "winner"

But but but but but the Index Astartes articles! ;)

[Legatus]

The only reason the Ultramarines would have conquered more is because of their larger number. Otherwise I'd give it to the Warmaster's own.

The Ultramarines were actually described as progressing faster than the other Legions right from the moment Guilliman was given command over the Legion. Then they started to grow, which would then have increased their rate of progress only more.

"The Ultramarines Legion of Space Marines was assigned to the control of Roboute Guilliman and its forward base relocated to Macragge. (...) he soon led the Ultramarines to fresh conquests in the galactic south. (...)

Whenever Roboute Guilliman freed a world (...) his first priority was to set up a self-supporting defence systen. Once a world was safe he could move on, leaving behind enough advisers to ensure that industry would be created, trading routes set up with the Imperium, (...) In this way the Ultramarines could conquer worlds faster than any other Space Marine Legion.

Meanwhile, the fortress of the Ultramarines grew on Macragge. Some Ultramarines remained behind to supervise the work, which progressed rapidly thanks to the ready trading network and advanced industries of the planet. Within a year a training base was established, and recruiting began on the planet Macragge and surrounding worlds. It was not long before the Ultramarines Legion received its first influx of warriors born and bred on Macragge.

- 2nd Edition Codex Ultramarines, p. 12

But what if we count all the worlds Horus decided to obliterate, as was his occasional penchant?

I'm sure the Soh would show up kill the Big Boss of the planet and move on leaving the clean up work or smaller fighting to other "lesser" legions. Some might have set the SoH liberated them (including the Legionaries themeselves) but the the other legion's might have went planet to planet asserting the rule of the Imperium.

A classification system like that would perhaps allow the SoH and DA to be 1st and second in victories?

It's worth noting that older Dark Angels material also puts the Lions' tally of victories as only being surpassed by Horus

Every destroyed alien fleet is a victory, but not an additional liberated world.

Every destroyed alien planet is a victory, but not an additional liberated world.

Every defense of an Imperial world is a victory, but not an additional liberated world.

There are plenty of opportunities to add another victory to one's tally without adding another world to the Imperium. The Ultramarines are described to have left stable and productive worlds behind. The Index Astartes Sons of Horus on the other hand describes how tehy left worlds in disarray, with a crushed military. Often new rebellions would flare up after the Sons of Horus had left. Or if attacked by alien raiders, the world would be defenseless. (In 'The First Heretic' we see the Word Bearers doubling back to Monarchia due to their distress call, so it is probably something of a matter of honour for a Legion to defend the worlds they personally liberated from further threats.) The Sons of Horus probably would have to revisit the worlds they liberated on a few occasions, adding victories without a new conquest. The Ultramarines left behind well defended worlds in a fully integrated supply and trade network, so they probably had to revisit their liberated worlds least of all the Legions.

I have allways taken that as the meaning behind their description of being able to conquer worlds faster than the other Legions. They were not faster in defeating the enemy oppressors, they simply had fewer delays or setbacks, and were able to move onward where other Legions might have had to double back or wait for reinforcements.

I'd say ultramarines liberated the most worlds.

Liberation also in form of "hey we got a pretty neat empire, wanna join?".

Whereas the sons conquered the most world. Because I don't think the sons meet many world that were like "awesome you're here! Can we join?".

I know the Index Astartes Sons of Horus mentions how Horus would on occasion be able to find non-military solutions via parley where other Legions might have just attacked. I don't remember that being said about the Ultramarines (perhaps in teh HH series), though I am sure if the world was not immediately hostile or ruled by alien ro Chaos forces they would have been more than happy to negotiate.

My only issue with taking things in a codex as gospel (and this is something that Alan Bligh mentioned when talking about information in the HH volumes themselves) is that the codexes are presenting a point of view 10,000 years old.

Well, the Ultramarines/Space Marines Codices with this description also mention the Horus Heresy, so in the very least it is highly classified secret information, not a watered down and whitewashed public account. More likely it is meant as a description from an omniscient narrator.

The Rulebooks include the claim in the very short tagline blurb about the Ultramarines, so it is unlikely that this information would turn out to be false.

Not to mention that Horus' 'Worlds Conquered' tally is still growing because of Dark Compliance.

Horus is dead.