Terminator Primarchs and Sweeping Advance

[Charlo]

So Horus and Perturabo both have terminator armour as described by thier equipment.

 

Does this prevent them from performing a sweeping advance?

[Quixus]

Yes. terminator armour is terminator armour. How their suits differ from normal specimens is mentioned in their entries. This however also means that they are relentless.

[Frater Cornelius]

Relentless has nothing to do with whether they can sweep or not though.

[Fire Golem]

No, Quixus was just pointing out that the armour gives them relentless as well as meaning they can't sweep, not that they're related.

[Marshal Loss]

AFAIK Horus can sweep because his suit of armour, while described as a suit of 'Terminator armour,' has its own special rules and doesn't fit into the Indomitus/Tartaros/Cataphractii classifications. The same is true of Perturabo from memory.

 

Abaddon is an excellent example - he wears Terminator armour, both on the model and in the description, but it is a suit specially engineered for his frame and the rules for it only provide relentless and 2+/4++, allowing him to sweep. It doesn't matter whether something is described as Terminator armour if the rules for it aren't the rules for Terminator armour.

[Quixus]

Everybody agrees that the Serpent's Scale and the Logos differ from regular terminator armour, but the question is whether being described as terminator armour has any mechanical impact. If it didn't why is the suit not described as ornate/advanced/unique/whatever armour? However you decide you have to apply all rules applying to terminator armour or none save those that are in the description.

While the rules don't clearly state to use the TDA rule in addition to those presented in the Primarchs' datasheets, it sets a dangerous precedent if you don't.

If these armours that clearly are TDA as per the rules, but do not behave like TDA, then what about named dreadnoughts? None of them have a rule saying they are dreadnoughts, at best there is some fluff bit that says they are dreadnoughts. If Björn (and the other named dreads) aren't treated as dreadnoughts, because the rules don't say they are to be treated thus, they cannot be transported in drop pods, because those can only transport infantry or dreadnoughts.

 

You may want to look at Abaddon's rules again, Marshal Loss. He has bog standard TDA, a fancy sword and a fancy power claw. There is no reason at all why Abaddon should behave differently than anybody else in TDA. His 4+ comes form the Mark of Tzeentch (it improves the 5++ from TDA).

[Ishagu]

Yeah they are unique suits of Terminator armour. They don't fall under the ruleset of Cataphractii, Tartaros or Indomnidus.

[depthcharge12]

We need a rules lawyer here...

 

Better call Saul.

[Frater Cornelius]

We need a rules lawyer here...

 

Better call Saul.

 

Rules do not clarify if the Primarch can sweep? Sue the paper manufacturer!

[ThatOneMarshal]

We need a rules lawyer here...

 

Better call Saul.

You mean Hesh?

[Quixus]

Yeah they are unique suits of Terminator armour. They don't fall under the ruleset of Cataphractii, Tartaros or Indomnidus.

So why are they unique suits of TDA and not unique suits of armour?

[Baluc]

The plain english reading would say that Terminator armour has baseline rules, unique sets provide additional rules. For example if the Serpent's Scale didn't say a different Invulnerable save, would people be assuming he had no Invulnerable save at all or a 5++?

[Quixus]

I just checked the errata for the Horus Heresy game. It seem FW wants the Primarchs to be able to sweep:

A note on unique and variant Terminator armour: If a unit is described as being equipped with a particular additional variant of Terminator armour, such as the Gorgon Terminators of the Iron Hands, or as wearing a personalised and unique suit, such as the armour worn by the Primarch Horus, the rules for this armour will be provided in the unit ’s description and should not be inferred from elsewhere.

Unfortunately applying that same logic elsewhere indicates that Rylannor and other named dreadnoughts cannot embark in vehicles that can transport dreadnoughts (dreadnought drop pod, thunderhawk etc.).

[Edit]It gets really weird when you look at the rules for the Gorgon Plate TDA in LAICL that the errata document mentioned:

 

Gorgon pattern Terminator armour is treated exactly as normal Terminator armour but possesses the following additional special rule.

So are we supposed to infer rules from LACAL or should we not? Can the Gorgons sweep? Are they bulky? Do they even have an Invulnerability save?[/Edit]

[Raktra]

Yes but then techincally no non-contemptor dreads could go into transports as they're called "Legion dreadnoughts". 

[Fire Golem]

 You may want to look at Abaddon's rules again, Marshal Loss. He has bog standard TDA, a fancy sword and a fancy power claw. There is no reason at all why Abaddon should behave differently than anybody else in TDA. His 4+ comes form the Mark of Tzeentch (it improves the 5++ from TDA).

Marshall Loss was talking about Abaddon in 30k, where he doesn't have the marks. He does have a custom termi armour though with 4++ and relentless that still allows him to sweep.

[Quixus]

Which vehicle? Dreadnought variants (including the contemptor) can use the dreadnought drop pod. You are right about not being allowed into a thunderhawk though.

[Leman Russ SW]

Following that logic Horus and Perturabo don't have relentless so will be unable to use their bombardments if they deepstrike or move?

[Ishagu]

I just checked the errata for the Horus Heresy game. It seem FW wants the Primarchs to be able to sweep:

A note on unique and variant Terminator armour: If a unit is described as being equipped with a particular additional variant of Terminator armour, such as the Gorgon Terminators of the Iron Hands, or as wearing a personalised and unique suit, such as the armour worn by the Primarch Horus, the rules for this armour will be provided in the unit ’s description and should not be inferred from elsewhere.

Unfortunately applying that same logic elsewhere indicates that Rylannor and other named dreadnoughts cannot embark in vehicles that can transport dreadnoughts (dreadnought drop pod, thunderhawk etc.).

 

[Edit]It gets really weird when you look at the rules for the Gorgon Plate TDA in LAICL that the errata document mentioned:

Gorgon pattern Terminator armour is treated exactly as normal Terminator armour but possesses the following additional special rule.

So are we supposed to infer rules from LACAL or should we not? Can the Gorgons sweep? Are they bulky? Do they even have an Invulnerability save?[/Edit]

Well, in the case of Horus it doesn't say anything about not sweeping which implies he can. Usually you'll be accompanied by Justaerins however...

As for the Gorgons, I really don't know... We can assume they are bulky?

 

In the case of the unique Legion dreads, they need their entries to allow an optional transport. I'd love to take Telemechrus but I can't footslog him across the table :-(

[Beaky Brigade]

I just checked the errata for the Horus Heresy game. It seem FW wants the Primarchs to be able to sweep:

A note on unique and variant Terminator armour: If a unit is described as being equipped with a particular additional variant of Terminator armour, such as the Gorgon Terminators of the Iron Hands, or as wearing a personalised and unique suit, such as the armour worn by the Primarch Horus, the rules for this armour will be provided in the unit ’s description and should not be inferred from elsewhere.

Unfortunately applying that same logic elsewhere indicates that Rylannor and other named dreadnoughts cannot embark in vehicles that can transport dreadnoughts (dreadnought drop pod, thunderhawk etc.).

 

[Edit]It gets really weird when you look at the rules for the Gorgon Plate TDA in LAICL that the errata document mentioned:

 

 

But where does it say in that passage that you should apply the same logic to dreadnoughts or anywhere else?

[Charlo]

Thanks for clearing it up with a reference guys!

[Quixus]

 

But where does it say in that passage that you should apply the same logic to dreadnoughts or anywhere else?

 

It does not, but we have no indication that we should not apply that logic either. The named dreadnoughts are not classified as dreadnoughts, nor is there a rule saying they inherit the rules from dreadnoughts. Additionally vehicles can only transport infantry and dreadnoughts, if the rules say so. So with a lack of a rule allowing the named dreadnought to embark, it cannot.

[Ishagu]

That is correct.

The named Dreadnoughts are unique entries, or dataslates if you will.

There's no rule paradigm to suggest the dedicated transport is shared.

[Quixus]

It is not only a problem with dedicated transports, but with any transport. A vehicle that can transport a dreadnought, is not allowed to carry Rylannor, because it has transport capacity of 0 Rylannors (it might alternatively have a rylannor transport capacity of N/A).

[Ishagu]

They need to add a paragraph saying any unique Dread or Walker or anything counts as x for the purpose of transports.