NovaScotius Posted March 21, 2016 Share Posted March 21, 2016 Hi All, I'm putting together my first unit of Ultramarine Invictarus Suzerains, and I'm really struggling with the Legatine Axes. They're so flimsy that I'm worried that they'll break, and it's taken ages just to work out their warping as they're so delicate. The more I look at them, the more that I'm certain that they were shoehorned into the Ultramarine background so that there would be a visual link between the 30k Invictarus Suzerains and the 40k Ultramarine Honour Guard models, who themselves only seem to have Axes because it was a big flat surface on which to put Ultramarine symbols. Simply put, I've come to the conclusion that I'll be replacing the Legatine Axes with swords, and I wanted to use this post as a bit of a litmus test to establish if people would be alright with that, or whether it would cause issues. Obviously, I'll be pointing out that I'm using swords instead of axes at the start of any game with an opponent who hasn't played me before. I really can't see how it would be an issue with the Invictarus Suzerains themselves as the models are very distinctive, however, I'm a little more unsure about Characters who have been given a 'Legatine Axe (Sword)'. I'd be seeking to have uniformity across the army and would most likely use the Sword in this set as my Legatine Axe; that component wouldn't appear anywhere else in my army, other than as a Legatine Axe... https://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Ultramarines-Upgrades Simply put, if I turned up with Invictarus Suzerains as well as a Character model with swords instead of axes, and explained this to you before the game started, how would you react? Thanks Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/320624-legatine-axes/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted March 21, 2016 Share Posted March 21, 2016 I'd be fine with the explanation, but I can tell you right now they aren't that flimsy. As long as you store your models well, in a foam case, the axes will be totally fine. Don't be overly worried about damaging them, the models feel pretty good once fully assembled. Also, the models and Axes are unique - Don't throw that away! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/320624-legatine-axes/#findComment-4341788 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted March 21, 2016 Share Posted March 21, 2016 All FW axes, banner poles, etc are better off being replaced with brass rod. It maintains the scale and is much stronger. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/320624-legatine-axes/#findComment-4341816 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlo Posted March 21, 2016 Share Posted March 21, 2016 It's your hobby. Just make sure your opponent knows what they are prior to the game. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/320624-legatine-axes/#findComment-4341843 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted March 21, 2016 Share Posted March 21, 2016 Just keep in mind the Legatine Axe is a pretty iconic, Ultramarine exclusive piece of wargear in 30k ;-) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/320624-legatine-axes/#findComment-4341860 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted March 21, 2016 Share Posted March 21, 2016 Giving the Ultramarines a special unit focused on axes was just another of so many mistakes in GW's treatment of the Ultramarines over the years. Instead of giving them swords, which would have been much more appropriate both in terms of their theme (roman legion) as well as their character (versatility), they instead got axes, a more single-purpose "brutal" weapon which is otherwise associated with Khorne Berserkers, Space Wolves, Flesh Tearers or Orks. I welcome anyone who replaces an Honour GUard or Invictarus Suzerain squad's axes with swords instead. I don't think anyone would mind such a modification, since legatine axes have their own unique mechanics anyway, and you are not just replacing power axes with power swords (which would then be a different item and could be confusing), but the downside is that you then do have to point it out to each new opponent that you did that. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/320624-legatine-axes/#findComment-4342041 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenith Posted March 21, 2016 Share Posted March 21, 2016 Giving the Ultramarines a special unit focused on axes was just another of so many mistakes in GW's treatment of the Ultramarines over the years. But Dark Angels are the sword Legion. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/320624-legatine-axes/#findComment-4342061 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted March 21, 2016 Share Posted March 21, 2016 Giving the Ultramarines a special unit focused on axes was just another of so many mistakes in GW's treatment of the Ultramarines over the years. But Dark Angels are the sword Legion. There are tons of sword legions. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/320624-legatine-axes/#findComment-4342067 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted March 21, 2016 Share Posted March 21, 2016 Giving the Ultramarines a special unit focused on axes was just another of so many mistakes in GW's treatment of the Ultramarines over the years. But Dark Angels are the sword Legion.There are tons of sword legions.But Night Lords are the only knife legion. B) But honestly, axes make sense for the Ultramarines, especially given the XIII's obviously Roman links. In Roman culture, there was the imagery of the fasces, which was an axe, surrounded by a bundle of rods. The symbol was used to show strength through unity. Something that makes total sense since the Ultramarines Legion derived their strength from the total unification of 500 worlds. And with time, the fasces became a physical image carried by lictors, bodyguards, of magistrates to show their authority. It wouldn't take a rocket scientist to imagine that Legatine Axes are based off of the Lictors' Fasces. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/320624-legatine-axes/#findComment-4342165 Share on other sites More sharing options...
lokkorex Posted March 21, 2016 Share Posted March 21, 2016 Replacing them with swords would be cool with me, since they act like paragon blades "light". (Strikes at initiative, ignores armour, etc) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/320624-legatine-axes/#findComment-4342191 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted March 21, 2016 Share Posted March 21, 2016 From what I can glean, the bundled rods represented unity. The axe represented the authority to enact corporal punishment. Add to this that the lictors were a purely civilian detail, with the fasces being ceremonial equipment. The Ultramarines Honour Guard could instead have been based on the praetorian guard, which was a military unit. Imagine if the Ultramarines had a decorated "praetorian" unit with vertically crested helmets, instead of the "eagle-for-a-face" Honour Guard/Invictarus Suzerain models they have now. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/320624-legatine-axes/#findComment-4342192 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkimaskMohawk Posted March 21, 2016 Share Posted March 21, 2016 From what I can glean, the bundled rods represented unity. The axe represented the authority to enact corporal punishment. Add to this that the lictors were a purely civilian detail, with the fasces being ceremonial equipment. The Ultramarines Honour Guard could instead have been based on the praetorian guard, which was a military unit. Imagine if the Ultramarines had a decorated "praetorian" unit with vertically crested helmets, instead of the "eagle-for-a-face" Honour Guard/Invictarus Suzerain models they have now. Breachers with swords. Problem solved. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/320624-legatine-axes/#findComment-4342226 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted March 21, 2016 Share Posted March 21, 2016 From what I can glean, the bundled rods represented unity. The axe represented the authority to enact corporal punishment. Add to this that the lictors were a purely civilian detail, with the fasces being ceremonial equipment. The Ultramarines Honour Guard could instead have been based on the praetorian guard, which was a military unit. Imagine if the Ultramarines had a decorated "praetorian" unit with vertically crested helmets, instead of the "eagle-for-a-face" Honour Guard/Invictarus Suzerain models they have now. I like the eagle faces, but I'd like to point out Tyrannicide and I had the idea to use the World eater cheek guard helmets with longitudinal crests before the invictarus upgrade came out. It looked amazing Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/320624-legatine-axes/#findComment-4342349 Share on other sites More sharing options...
lokkorex Posted March 21, 2016 Share Posted March 21, 2016 From what I can glean, the bundled rods represented unity. The axe represented the authority to enact corporal punishment. Add to this that the lictors were a purely civilian detail, with the fasces being ceremonial equipment. The Ultramarines Honour Guard could instead have been based on the praetorian guard, which was a military unit. Imagine if the Ultramarines had a decorated "praetorian" unit with vertically crested helmets, instead of the "eagle-for-a-face" Honour Guard/Invictarus Suzerain models they have now. I like the eagle faces, but I'd like to point out Tyrannicide and I had the idea to use the World eater cheek guard helmets with longitudinal crests before the invictarus upgrade came out. It looked amazing Got any pictures or sketches? Cause that sounds interesting. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/320624-legatine-axes/#findComment-4342399 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted March 21, 2016 Share Posted March 21, 2016 Nah, never had the actual bitz. Just gimp on my old PC Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/320624-legatine-axes/#findComment-4342440 Share on other sites More sharing options...
shandwen Posted March 22, 2016 Share Posted March 22, 2016 Giving the Ultramarines a special unit focused on axes was just another of so many mistakes in GW's treatment of the Ultramarines over the years. But Dark Angels are the sword Legion.There are tons of sword legions.But Night Lords are the only knife legion. B) One word: Power dagger. Well, two words: Alpha Legion Power Dagger. Four words...Anyways, there are only so many weapons to be shared among 18 legions. There should be a power axe legion, but the closest we come is the world eaters. There should be a maul legion, but there isn't. Ultramarines should favor the gladius style, but our most iconic guys don't. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/320624-legatine-axes/#findComment-4342795 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MakoBoy88 Posted March 22, 2016 Share Posted March 22, 2016 Pretty sure Guilliman has a Gladius ;) In all seriousness though, so whatever makes you feel happy about it mate :) if you'd rather security in models go Swords, they won't hurt. But the Aces really won't come to any trouble I shouldn't have thought. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/320624-legatine-axes/#findComment-4342941 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandlemad Posted March 22, 2016 Share Posted March 22, 2016 From what I can glean, the bundled rods represented unity. The axe represented the authority to enact corporal punishment. Add to this that the lictors were a purely civilian detail, with the fasces being ceremonial equipment. The Ultramarines Honour Guard could instead have been based on the praetorian guard, which was a military unit. Imagine if the Ultramarines had a decorated "praetorian" unit with vertically crested helmets, instead of the "eagle-for-a-face" Honour Guard/Invictarus Suzerain models they have now. I know you're not a fan of the Tempest background but it does emphasise the Invictarii acting specifically as an honour guard and sign of authority for the Tetrarchs, tasked with being arbiters of law and order, rather than the usual crusading units. It variously says that the axes are an old Macraggian staff of office used to enact corporal punishment by heralds as well as Guilliman's custom design. The latter part is a bit silly but the former does make it very similar to a lictor's fasces in function, the duties of the wielders and (sort-of) appearance. Can't blame GW/FW for not wanting to have a literal fasces on their models. Personally I like seeing one of the Emperor's Children swinging an axe or a World Eater with a sword. It gets away from the reductive 'axe = barbarian' logic and makes the legions a bit less one-note in martial character. Can completely understand that this might rub folks the wrong way on the UM's star unique unit though. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/320624-legatine-axes/#findComment-4342976 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted March 22, 2016 Share Posted March 22, 2016 The Locutarus are one of our signature units and they have swords... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/320624-legatine-axes/#findComment-4342989 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandlemad Posted March 22, 2016 Share Posted March 22, 2016 True but what I mean is that the Suzerains are a real centerpiece unit, the UM's popular all-stars, compared to the Locutarus or Fulmentarus termies. I should add that I agree with the OP about why the axes originally showed up on the 40k honour guard but I like FW's retroactive explanation for their heritage and think the OP is going about this the right way in terms of consistency and modelling. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/320624-legatine-axes/#findComment-4343011 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reyner Posted March 22, 2016 Share Posted March 22, 2016 The Locutarus are one of our signature units and they have swords... They popped straight into my head too! I need to finish mine off... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/320624-legatine-axes/#findComment-4343021 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remus Ventanus. Posted March 22, 2016 Share Posted March 22, 2016 when i get my suzies ill be doing a mix of both swords and axes. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/320624-legatine-axes/#findComment-4343108 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zebulon Posted March 22, 2016 Share Posted March 22, 2016 I suppose axes recall the Varangian Guard, on a more Byzantine tip. Yep, thanks for reading! :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/320624-legatine-axes/#findComment-4343205 Share on other sites More sharing options...
nefarious squirrel Posted March 22, 2016 Share Posted March 22, 2016 An axe is more useful. Its not just a weapon but a tool. Against a foe with shields, an axe can be used to pull a shield down or a opponent out of his line allowing another member to strike his opponent. For breachers or seige craft i think the axe theme is better. An axe is more utilitarian than a sword, a sword is just good for killing. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/320624-legatine-axes/#findComment-4343211 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted March 22, 2016 Share Posted March 22, 2016 Personally messing with such a cool looking and unique unit is heretical in my eyes. Swords are a lot more common than axes! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/320624-legatine-axes/#findComment-4343225 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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