Calas Typhon Posted March 22, 2016 Share Posted March 22, 2016 An axe is more useful. Its not just a weapon but a tool. Against a foe with shields, an axe can be used to pull a shield down or a opponent out of his line allowing another member to strike his opponent. For breachers or seige craft i think the axe theme is better. An axe is more utilitarian than a sword, a sword is just good for killing. If we are talking ZM the problem is, there is not a lot of space for movement in the whole shield shoving combat, especially when two parties are so packed together. The Sword will always take the better position in this warfare simply because it is so easy to thrust and there is no real need to swing. If you move to take an enemies shield down with an axe in this tight a battle zone, then you are asking to get wrecked by the enemy for either lowering or moving your shield. Axes are useful against shields, but it depends on the situation. A solid shield wall would be covered from being pulled down due to the way shields tend to overlap in these formations (most of the time anyway). Given the shieldbearer is an Astartes? going to have a tough time tearing a shield out of his hands. If someone managed to pull the shield away you can 9/10 times expect that they will get a sword to the gut, throat or chest and be covered until he can recover. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/320624-legatine-axes/page/2/#findComment-4343240 Share on other sites More sharing options...
nefarious squirrel Posted March 22, 2016 Share Posted March 22, 2016 An axe is more useful. Its not just a weapon but a tool. Against a foe with shields, an axe can be used to pull a shield down or a opponent out of his line allowing another member to strike his opponent. For breachers or seige craft i think the axe theme is better. An axe is more utilitarian than a sword, a sword is just good for killing. If we are talking ZM the problem is, there is not a lot of space for movement in the whole shield shoving combat, especially when two parties are so packed together. The Sword will always take the better position in this warfare simply because it is so easy to thrust and there is no real need to swing. If you move to take an enemies shield down with an axe in this tight a battle zone, then you are asking to get wrecked by the enemy for either lowering or moving your shield. Axes are useful against shields, but it depends on the situation. A solid shield wall would be covered from being pulled down due to the way shields tend to overlap in these formations (most of the time anyway). Given the shieldbearer is an Astartes? going to have a tough time tearing a shield out of his hands. If someone managed to pull the shield away you can 9/10 times expect that they will get a sword to the gut, throat or chest and be covered until he can recover. Fair points, and true. But in reality every weapon has a drawback and a use. A sword like wise in close combat can be channelled to prevent best use. Just trying to point out an axe is not a barbarians weapon. My noble IF carry them! :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/320624-legatine-axes/page/2/#findComment-4343258 Share on other sites More sharing options...
NovaScotius Posted March 22, 2016 Author Share Posted March 22, 2016 Personally messing with such a cool looking and unique unit is heretical in my eyes. In this case, I can only apologise for the pictures I'm about to post, however, I've decided to take my lead from the Warmaster when it comes to Heresy... Go large or go home!! From what I can glean, the bundled rods represented unity. The axe represented the authority to enact corporal punishment. Add to this that the lictors were a purely civilian detail, with the fasces being ceremonial equipment. The Ultramarines Honour Guard could instead have been based on the praetorian guard, which was a military unit. Imagine if the Ultramarines had a decorated "praetorian" unit with vertically crested helmets, instead of the "eagle-for-a-face" Honour Guard/Invictarus Suzerain models they have now. Praetorians was exactly how I imagined the Suzerains when they were described to me, which is part of the reason I'd like to chop and change mine about a bit! Giving the Ultramarines a special unit focused on axes was just another of so many mistakes in GW's treatment of the Ultramarines over the years.But Dark Angels are the sword Legion.There are tons of sword legions.But Night Lords are the only knife legion. But honestly, axes make sense for the Ultramarines, especially given the XIII's obviously Roman links. In Roman culture, there was the imagery of the fasces, which was an axe, surrounded by a bundle of rods. The symbol was used to show strength through unity. Something that makes total sense since the Ultramarines Legion derived their strength from the total unification of 500 worlds. And with time, the fasces became a physical image carried by lictors, bodyguards, of magistrates to show their authority. It wouldn't take a rocket scientist to imagine that Legatine Axes are based off of the Lictors' Fasces. Thanks very much for that, I had no idea about this facet of Roman society, which led to a lot of reading after you posted! I can really see how Forgeworld have gone into Roman culture as part of their research for the existing Suzerain models. Anyway, here's what I had in mind for the models themselves. I've blu-tacked one together to show what I'm planning on doing, whilst this discussion is still fresh. My apologies for the lack of clean up, and the Blu-tack also makes his sword wrist took a touch distended! I've swapped the Legatine Axe for a sword, swapped the head for one of the Invictarii heads and have have replaced his eagle shoulder pad with another Legion symbol (Sorry Ishagu!!!) http://i1190.photobucket.com/albums/z441/NovaScotius/Invictarus%20Test%20Model%204_zpsz69e9l5n.jpg http://i1190.photobucket.com/albums/z441/NovaScotius/Invictarus%20Test%20Model%203_zpsdehg2l59.jpg http://i1190.photobucket.com/albums/z441/NovaScotius/Invictarus%20Test%20Model%201_zpssggrn9po.jpg http://i1190.photobucket.com/albums/z441/NovaScotius/Invictarus%20Test%20Model%202_zpsb6m9pjwu.jpg Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/320624-legatine-axes/page/2/#findComment-4343375 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guiltysparc Posted March 22, 2016 Share Posted March 22, 2016 good lord those models are sweet looking Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/320624-legatine-axes/page/2/#findComment-4343383 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fenbain Posted March 22, 2016 Share Posted March 22, 2016 I think it looks ace. Elite and obviously still a Suzerain. That said, the double legion shoulder pad is really off putting. Maybe look at some of the plastic sternguard/vanguard pads? :-) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/320624-legatine-axes/page/2/#findComment-4343393 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remus Ventanus. Posted March 22, 2016 Share Posted March 22, 2016 lovely! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/320624-legatine-axes/page/2/#findComment-4343559 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted March 22, 2016 Share Posted March 22, 2016 That actually looks pretty great lol. The helmet fits very nicely. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/320624-legatine-axes/page/2/#findComment-4343642 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reyner Posted March 23, 2016 Share Posted March 23, 2016 The alternate helmet looks sweet and that sword is awesome (my Praetor currently has one). How does it look with the eagle pad? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/320624-legatine-axes/page/2/#findComment-4343931 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandlemad Posted March 23, 2016 Share Posted March 23, 2016 Looks great! That sword is quite a bit longer than the sprue makes it look, almost more of a spatha-style weapon. Good call on losing the eagle pauldron as well. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/320624-legatine-axes/page/2/#findComment-4344047 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Petitioner's City Posted March 23, 2016 Share Posted March 23, 2016 Giving the Ultramarines a special unit focused on axes was just another of so many mistakes in GW's treatment of the Ultramarines over the years. Instead of giving them swords, which would have been much more appropriate both in terms of their theme (roman legion) as well as their character (versatility), they instead got axes, a more single-purpose "brutal" weapon which is otherwise associated with Khorne Berserkers, Space Wolves, Flesh Tearers or Orks. I welcome anyone who replaces an Honour GUard or Invictarus Suzerain squad's axes with swords instead. I don't think anyone would mind such a modification, since legatine axes have their own unique mechanics anyway, and you are not just replacing power axes with power swords (which would then be a different item and could be confusing), but the downside is that you then do have to point it out to each new opponent that you did that. You know they are alluding to fasces, with the axe chosen as a means of representing the power of the state. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/320624-legatine-axes/page/2/#findComment-4344063 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlo Posted March 23, 2016 Share Posted March 23, 2016 Congratulations, you've made me like Ultra Marines! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/320624-legatine-axes/page/2/#findComment-4344102 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted March 23, 2016 Share Posted March 23, 2016 If it wasn't for that facehugger that model would be perfect. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/320624-legatine-axes/page/2/#findComment-4344129 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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