Best Generic Terminators

[ElectricPaladin]

X-Posted from Heresy 30k, which is a smaller forum.

 

After working with the B@C terminators, I've kind of fallen in love with cataphractii armor. It's just so... massive, menacing. It has all these great sharp angles that contrast well with its curved armor plates; much better than the lumpy melted-looking indomitus armor of 40k. So, I've decided that I want to add more cataphractii to my colleciton. But not more Salamanders cataphractii. Something I can use alongside them in a Shattered Legions force.

 

The question is... which?

 

My original thought was to do Iron Hands for relentless graviton guns, but then I saw that Iron Hands actually can't take graviton guns on terminators, only on Gorgon terminators, who have their own awesome models (so not something I want to bash together out of B@C cats), so knocked them out of first place.

 

So, in your opinion, which legion's special rules and wargear on their basic terminators are:

1. Most compatible with cataphractii armor?
2. Would work best alongside my Salamanders?

 

I'm also, of course, particularly interested in a color scheme that will look cool alongside my Salamanders and some cool conversion/scratchbuilding opportunities.

 

Based on my preferences, I've assembled a preliminary short list, for your consideration, but feel free to try to convince me otherwise!

 

• Iron Hands: Involate Armour durability works well with terminator armor. Black is the new black. Also, both were present at Istvaan, so it makes sense.
• Night Lords: Teleporting terminators easy to slot into a Shattered Legions list.
• Alpha Legion: Scout/Infiltrate/Tank Hunter on terminators. Plus it could be fun to play around with the background of Salamanders who are desperate enough to accept the aid of XX Legion refuges who claim to be loyal...  http://heresy30k.invisionzone.com/public/style_emoticons/default/biggrin.png
• Imperial Fists: Assault cannons. Yellow is a PITA, though.
• Raven Guard: Raven Talons Furious Assault claw terminators. Black is still the new black.
• Dark Angels: More black! Also a Mastery of the Blade buffed swordinator squad?
• White Scars: Swift Action for terminators pressing forward, plus a power glaive for the sergeant?
• Blood Angels: Assault cannons and Encarmine Fury could be a fun combination...

 

Thanks for your input!

 

[Slips]

If you dont mind editing the text to the "automatic" color for ease of reading that'd be welcome ^_^

 

Again, Terminators come down to the job you want them to do.

• Iron Hands Termies will be tougher vs shooting. Thats about it.
• Night Lords can deepstrike Combi-Weapons without having to take a dreadclaw and gain +1 to-hit and to-wound if they outnumber thanks to talent for murder.
• Imperial Fists can deepstrike Combi-Weapons without having to take a dreadclaw and have +1BS for using Bolt Weapons. Characters in a challenge also get re-rolls to hit.
• Alpha Legion Mutable Tactics in a Shattered Legion list can only be used if the Warlord is Alpha Legion iirc. So that could be a limiting factor in their use.
• Raven Guard make for Great Assault Terminators but, with Cataphractii being slow and unable to sweep, you might be better off with Tartaros if thats you're plan.
• Dark Angels: making use of their Sword Buff will only ever be useful vs 3+ Save Models. Done this way, you do save in weapons cost and can give the who squad combi-grenade launchers since 30k combi-weapon options are: Flamer, Plasma, Melta, Volkite and Grenade.
• White Scars: they only get the bonus if they move their full distance. So you're moving a full 6" in a single direction every turn if you want the bonus. Oddly enough, Cataphractii is probably a solid suit for the White Scars to make the most out of this bonus especially due to the Power Glaive.
• Blood Angels: Awesome for Mincing 3+ or lower blobs by using Claws which have +1 to wound and Shred. Fists would only be useful vs T7 or higher where you'd make the most of the +1 with them because otherwise, its a 2+ to wound anyways.

[ElectricPaladin]

Heh. Sometimes I forget that most of you still use the forum in its God-awful white-on-black mode. I switched it to an easier on the eyes appearance years ago and have totally forgotten how the rest of the world sees it.

[Slips]

Heh. Sometimes I forget that most of you still use the forum in its God-awful white-on-black mode. I switched it to an easier on the eyes appearance years ago and have totally forgotten how the rest of the world sees it.

Well, the thing is, using the "automatic" color, formats it to whatever your default scheme is.

 

So for those of us using light grey on black, it'd show up that way and for others using black on white, it would automatically show up that way as well :p

[ElectricPaladin]

If you dont mind editing the text to the "automatic" color for ease of reading that'd be welcome

Again, Terminators come down to the job you want them to do.

• Iron Hands Termies will be tougher vs shooting. Thats about it.
• Night Lords can deepstrike Combi-Weapons without having to take a dreadclaw and gain +1 to-hit and to-wound if they outnumber thanks to talent for murder.
• Imperial Fists can deepstrike Combi-Weapons without having to take a dreadclaw and have +1BS for using Bolt Weapons. Characters in a challenge also get re-rolls to hit.
• Alpha Legion Mutable Tactics in a Shattered Legion list can only be used if the Warlord is Alpha Legion iirc. So that could be a limiting factor in their use.
• Raven Guard make for Great Assault Terminators but, with Cataphractii being slow and unable to sweep, you might be better off with Tartaros if thats you're plan.
• Dark Angels: making use of their Sword Buff will only ever be useful vs 3+ Save Models. Done this way, you do save in weapons cost and can give the who squad combi-grenade launchers since 30k combi-weapon options are: Flamer, Plasma, Melta, Volkite and Grenade.
• White Scars: they only get the bonus if they move their full distance. So you're moving a full 6" in a single direction every turn if you want the bonus. Oddly enough, Cataphractii is probably a solid suit for the White Scars to make the most out of this bonus especially due to the Power Glaive.
• Blood Angels: Awesome for Mincing 3+ or lower blobs by using Claws which have +1 to wound and Shred. Fists would only be useful vs T7 or higher where you'd make the most of the +1 with them because otherwise, its a 2+ to wound anyways

In any case, as a Salamanders player, I'm inclined towards a Legion that will let me use cataphractii in close combat, since that's what the Salamanders are terrible at (and, ironically, tend to spend a lot of their time in range of), though honestly I'd also be pleased with shooters who aren't quite as scared of close combat (since the Salamanders actually do have an awesome close combat terminator unit in the form of firedrakes, they're just extremely dedicated to just smashing faces in).

Given that...

• Iron Hands are still a possibility, as durability is always fun and they lack the characteristic Salamanders weaknesses.
• Night Lords and Imperial Fists seem okay, but not overwhelming.
• Alpha Legion are... disappointing. I'm inclined to cross them off the list if I can't Infiltrate them in a Shattered Legion army.
• I agree with you about the Raven Guard probably benefiting from Sweeping Advances, thanks to dual claws and Shred and Master Crafted all combining to make a squad that is meant to hit hard, cause lots of wounds, and sweep, rather than one that wants to stick it out and win by attrition.
• White Scars might be a little more versatile than you think. I thought it was if they moved 6'' total, including move and charge distances. Either way, I think they're still in the running.
• Blood Angels still sound okay.

That reduces me to: Iron Hands, Alpha Legion, White Scars, Blood Angels, Night Lords, and Imperial Fists.

Hm...

[ThatOneMarshal]

If your looking for a close combat anvil then I would not look at iron hands as they are just like you: short ranged shooters that are durable.

 

I would say that imperial gusts are cool, but benefit more from Tartarus more. White scars are pretty cool as well as Raven guard.

[Slips]

Ravens Talons also have Rending, dont forget. S5 On the Charge +D6 for Armor Pen +D3 for any Rends means you can get up to 14 for your result.

 

For White Scars, Cataphractii Can't run and you dont want to risk an overly long charge to get the bonus. Safest bet is to use your full 6" in the Movement phase.

 

Iron Hands will get the most of their rules use from having to tank a turn of shooting or overwatch. For the former, you want to avoid that as much as possible. The latter? Hitting on 6's so low volume. But it can help mitigate a possible failed charge.

Otherwise, they're just like any other Legions Terminators.

 

NL probably make for the best mix. They can Deepstrike and Combi-Plas a unit or, thanks to counting as 2 for the purposes of outnumbering due to Bulky for Talent For Murder, make for some pretty good Assault Terminators if and only if you play to this advantage which means ganging up on units if you're rolling with 5 man squads or only going after squads you outnumber.

 

IF are kinda like the NL but not really. They can also deepstrike combi-weapons, are stubborn in cover but dont have as much CC punch as the Night Lords. However, you can take Storm Shields for a 3++ which is nice and your Sergeant is Re-rolling all To-Hits when in a Challenge.

 

Blood Angels: Better as MC hunting Termies with Fists or 3+ Save Punting unit with Claws to make the most of their bonuses.

[Ironwithout]

In relation to the White Scars if you take a Praetor with the Cyber Hawk you can re - roll 1's to hit and because of the 6" move re roll 1's to wound and also re roll charge distances. I run combi plasma and plasma blaster in ZM all the time with this loadout and its pretty brutal. Also remember if you move the 6" you have +1 to cover so the tartoros terminators are an option if you plan ahead. ( I still prefer the Cataphractii)

[depthcharge12]

You forgots teh Sons of Horus :D

 

We have combi weapons at BS5 at 12" and rerolls of 1's first turn if you took the Long March RoW.

 

Though others may admonish against it, I think tartaros terminators for SoH using the RoW are good too as you get fleet or crusader depending on your location, plus sweeping. You're also able to get extra attacks from merciless fighters - though you'll likely be taking I1 weapons, so it's pretty nil.

[ElectricPaladin]

You forgots teh Sons of Horus

We have combi weapons at BS5 at 12" and rerolls of 1's first turn if you took the Long March RoW.

Though others may admonish against it, I think tartaros terminators for SoH using the RoW are good too as you get fleet or crusader depending on your location, plus sweeping. You're also able to get extra attacks from merciless fighters - though you'll likely be taking I1 weapons, so it's pretty nil.

Well, don't forget that I won't be taking traitors - I'll be taking loyalists as part of a Shattered Legions force with my Salamanders. And I'm talking about generic cataphractii, not legion-specific variants, mostly because I can get B@Caphractii cheap right now. I mean, I'm planning to dress them up a little, but if I wanted, say, gorgons or justaerin, I'd want to buy those (awesome) kits from Forgeworld!

[DuskRaider]

Shattered Legion Loyalists can be from Traitor Legions

Death Guard Cataphractii with Combi-Flamers and Heavy Flamers which benefit from Shred (also Gets Hot). Not only do they have Fearless more or less, but they re-roll any Dangerous Terrain, re-roll any failed saves against Poison or Fleshbane, and the Sergeant can take a Power Scythe, which are REALLY nasty these days.

[depthcharge12]

You forgots teh Sons of Horus

We have combi weapons at BS5 at 12" and rerolls of 1's first turn if you took the Long March RoW.

Though others may admonish against it, I think tartaros terminators for SoH using the RoW are good too as you get fleet or crusader depending on your location, plus sweeping. You're also able to get extra attacks from merciless fighters - though you'll likely be taking I1 weapons, so it's pretty nil.

Well, don't forget that I won't be taking traitors - I'll be taking loyalists as part of a Shattered Legions force with my Salamanders. And I'm talking about generic cataphractii, not legion-specific variants, mostly because I can get B@Caphractii cheap right now. I mean, I'm planning to dress them up a little, but if I wanted, say, gorgons or justaerin, I'd want to buy those (awesome) kits from Forgeworld!

^^Tartaros aren't legion specific either ;)

You are allowed to choose between Tartaros, Indomitus, and Cataphractii. But I get that you are using the BaC set.

[Brofist]

Don't forget about cyber familiars for the Iron Hands. Your sergeant can enjoy a 3++ and tank enemy characters better. Not a game changer, but it's definitely a perk.

[Frater Cornelius]

Personally, I would say Iron Hands. Not because they are the best, but because of the fluff. Both were on Istvaan V. Both fought and died together. That sort of brotherhood is not easily severed. That would be the reason for me, anyway.

[GreyCrow]

Cataphractii Terminators are awesome models !

 

Ruleswise, it's really really hard to tell which Legion benefits Terminators the most from loyalistish Legions. Because Terminators are actually very flexible units : combis on deep strike + Power weapons to clear an area, power fists + assault transports to ensure a nasty charge.

 

Overall, especially with Cataphractii, they are heavy melee line units. Tartaros/indomitus favour shootier builds that footslog the board with heavy weapons to go along footslogging Tacticals, but they aren't super worth it in my opinion. The best interest of Tartaros imho is a defensive build where you take advantage of long range weapons, 4+ cover, with units of 10, and run late game to grab objectives.

Much like you would with 40k Terminators in essence, while Cataphractii are much more offensive due to SNP heavily incentivizing you to be able to get the charge.

 

I really, really love the Alpha Legion ruleset for Terminators, especially with a LR dedicated transport. The fact that you get to choose which rule before the battle is pretty awesome. Tank Hunting Powerfists ? Scout to Redeploy 12" against the Raven Guard or other Infiltrators ? Infiltrate to ensure counter deployment regardless of whether you start first or second ? Yes please :p

 

Most Legion rules gel well with Terminators because Terminators are just a better, closer range variant of the Tactical Marines. I guess the choice comes down to fluff préférence and what you expect your allied Legion to do.

[Arthanor]

That's funny, I always considered terminators the other way around:

 

Tartaros: Can sweep -> Better in combat

Cataphractii: Can't sweep, inbuilt 4++ to go with shooting weapon -> Better shooting

 

That's probably because I am considering IF. With storm shields, Tartaros have great defence in a 3++ and great offence with sweep, but they can only take shields if they exchange their combi-bolter, so there their shooting potential (and shooting with a 5++ is more risky). By opposition, cataphractii have a rather nice 4++ so they don't have to hug cover (or fear ap2 + ignore cover).

 

That being said, cataphractii make the meanest looking 2 claws versions to blender things with raw attack numbers so they don't need to sweep and then tank on their still respectable 4++. It's a shame they can't do claw+(chain)fist, that would be lovely/deadly.

 

I see cataphractii as the really versatile type, whereas tartaros can be better if you specialize them (all claw sweeping murder machines, or IF TH&SS TEQ killers or.. nah, I struggle to see them for shooting..)

[GreyCrow]

I don't think Tartaros allows sweeping ? Unless I'm mistaken ?

[Bob1142]

I don't think Tartaros allows sweeping ? Unless I'm mistaken ?

They can since the January FAQ

 

https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/resources/fw_site/fw_pdfs/Horus_Heresy/Horus_Heresy_7th_Edition.pdf

 

Think the terminator part is on page 4 :)

[ElectricPaladin]

That's funny, I always considered terminators the other way around:

 

Tartaros: Can sweep -> Better in combat

Cataphractii: Can't sweep, inbuilt 4++ to go with shooting weapon -> Better shooting

 

That's probably because I am considering IF. With storm shields, Tartaros have great defence in a 3++ and great offence with sweep, but they can only take shields if they exchange their combi-bolter, so there their shooting potential (and shooting with a 5++ is more risky). By opposition, cataphractii have a rather nice 4++ so they don't have to hug cover (or fear ap2 + ignore cover).

 

That being said, cataphractii make the meanest looking 2 claws versions to blender things with raw attack numbers so they don't need to sweep and then tank on their still respectable 4++. It's a shame they can't do claw+(chain)fist, that would be lovely/deadly.

 

I see cataphractii as the really versatile type, whereas tartaros can be better if you specialize them (all claw sweeping murder machines, or IF TH&SS TEQ killers or.. nah, I struggle to see them for shooting..)

I know what you mean. If I could take shields + guns, my Salamanders cataphractii would be all combi-meltas and shields, with one heavy flamer and shield, and a shield + axe or chainfist on the sergeant. They'd be like super breachers!

[Arthanor]

I don't think Tartaros allows sweeping ? Unless I'm mistaken ?

As Bob pointed out, that's the change that makes it worth payin' for the resin Previously, you would either go cataphractii (awesome menacing look and 4++) or indomitus (cheap and plastic!). Now you have cataphractii in plastic too, but Tartaros made a huge come back with the ability to sweep. It makes TH&SS Tartarus in an IF list really worth considering: Super resistant + high quality attacks = should win combat even if they don't have that many attacks, then they can sweep and not care about not having been able to smash enough of the target.

I know what you mean. If I could take shields + guns, my Salamanders cataphractii would be all combi-meltas and shields, with one heavy flamer and shield, and a shield + axe or chainfist on the sergeant. They'd be like super breachers!

Yeah! I really wish it were "exchange one weapon" for the shield, instead of "exchange their combi-bolter". And the shield is as valuable for shooting as for melee. If we were still in the days of 4++ in melee only, then it'd make sense to restrict it to melee builds (it's valuable and you give it to those who benefit most from it). Even just a siege mantlet like shield (reroll armor saves against shooting, I think?) would be great for shooty terminators to help them not die from mass cheap fire while still falling to ap2 fire.

Oh well.. in theory/fluff terminators are already breachers+ with their 2+, I guess it wasn't deemed necessary to buff them defensively even more. And it would be annoying to get your super tough and shooty terminators tarpitted by just about anything now that you don't have power weapons, something that would be easily achieved in close quarters and boarding actions. So I guess keeping power weapons makes sense. Maybe as a "1 in 5" upgrade alongside the heavy weapon it would be nice, to get a tough guy on point and a heavy weapon supporting from the back.

[Slips]

It gets pretty Hilarious with Dorn in the mix since he gives an Army-Wide +D3 to combat resolution with himself having Crusader meaning he can possibly beat out I8 opponents due to his I5+D6+D3 since victory goes to the person conducting the sweep in the event of a tie.

 

So yeah. Sweep for days.

 

A POTL Storm Shield Tartaros Army with Dorn (or Primarchs Chosen if you want to dodge the LoW tax) can possibly do some work...if you dont get bogged down by Fearless Stuff.

 

...But this is better off in the IF Tactica...

[GreyCrow]

Okay awesome guys ! I'm not totally up to speed with the revamped ruleset but I'll definitely check it out ;)

 

It makes Tartaros a lot more interesting than previously, is there an option for Indomitus as well ?

I guess now Tartaros is better for cutting infantry down, while Cataphractii is better to deal with AP2 equipped units in a MAD scenario. Especially If they can make the other Terminators flee.

[Slips]

Indomitus is basically worthless in 30k.

Cant Sweep, 5++ invuln for the same cost as Tartaros or Cataphractii.

 

No thanks.

[Guiltysparc]

maybe some loyalist world eaters?  Some CC centric world eater vanilla terminators teamed up with a mediae primus could be pretty nasty.  5+ FnP, reroll 1s to wound in combat, +1 attack from the apothecary as often as you want to chance death afterwards.

[Slips]

They make a decent alternative to consider if running Crimson Path when slapping on Gahlan to them to make up for their weaker invulnerable and single wound status.

 

Red Butchers don't need an anothecary/primus since they already have FNP which gets boosted by the RoW.

 

And if you want to run a Terminator Bodyguard for Angron, they are the better bet since they wont stop him from sweeping.