Canadian_F_H Posted March 23, 2016 Share Posted March 23, 2016 I'm tired and off to bed but I wanted to spit this crazy idea out first. Alternative history freaks what do you think of this? Instead of the primarches being scattered across the galaxy by chaos. .. the emperor is instead lost to mankind, disappeared into the wilderness of the pre imperial galaxy. How or why is a mystery even to the primarches, who take command of their newly formed legions, and commit to a great crusade, with the intent of unifying humanity and ultimately find their sire. How will they ally with the mechanicus? How will they stay united? For how long? Now you know what I'll be thinking about as I drift off to sleep. .. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carrack Posted March 23, 2016 Share Posted March 23, 2016 How they get the Mechanics could be easy. All 20 legions together, would be hard to turn down, even with the might of Mars. I think the problems would start cropping up once the legions become seperated by enough distance that they are acting on their own, or in small groups. With the traditional Great Crusade, this wasn't such an issue, because the Emperor was clearly more powerful than his primarchs, but the primarchs are more or less on equal footing, so there is no obvious choice as to who will lead, and the primarchs that arn't leading, may more readily go off on their own. It would definitely be interesting to me to see how the primarchs would behave, if they grew up together, and on the same planet. Would Leman Russ be remotely similar to what he became without Fenris? What about Angron, Curze, Guiliman? Guiliman would at least be a contender for leadership of the Great Crusade, but how much of the characteristics that would make him suitable, are because of his experiences on Ultramar. I guess it's a nature vs nurture question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canadian_F_H Posted March 23, 2016 Author Share Posted March 23, 2016 A lot of that would be author choice. If we choose that the primarches torn out much the same because of events on earth. Who does the emperor set up as tutors? what responsibilities he gave them during the later stages of the war of unification perhaps. If horus led the assault against the gene cults of luna... is the sigilite regent in the emperors absence? When exactly the emperor disappears also. I was thinking right at the end of the war of unification perhaps. Actually I can't recall when in the WoU the primarches disappeared... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olis Posted March 23, 2016 Share Posted March 23, 2016 Actually I can't recall when in the WoU the primarches disappeared... Before the space marines were created, iirc. Which means, if I'm not mistaken, prior to the Thunder Warriors supposedly being purged on Mount Ararat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canadian_F_H Posted March 23, 2016 Author Share Posted March 23, 2016 Actually I can't recall when in the WoU the primarches disappeared... Before the space marines were created, iirc. Which means, if I'm not mistaken, prior to the Thunder Warriors supposedly being purged on Mount Ararat. That sounds about right. I think in canon the sequence is... Primarches are created and lost. Space Marines are created. *** Thunder warriors eliminated. *** Unification ends. Crusade begins. Which came first? Creation of astartes or elimination of thunder warriors. And if the astartes were created before the Thunder Warriors were eliminated, did the astartes take part in their culling? This is important in this alternative history because the decision to eliminate the tw might Happen after the big e disappears. Which primarches would have been for our against it would lay the foundation for future inter legion animosity. Personally I would say in this history the sequence is as follows. Primarches created Legions astartes created Unification wars near their end Emperor's disappearance Thunder warriors eliminated Unification wars end Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olis Posted March 23, 2016 Share Posted March 23, 2016 Which came first? Creation of astartes or elimination of thunder warriors. And if the astartes were created before the Thunder Warriors were eliminated, did the astartes take part in their culling? Well, the Legions took part in the Unification Wars so I'm inclined to think there's an overlap where the Legions and the TW existed, without trying to search for references. Any space marine involvement, from my POV, would be speculative in canon. In your own Alt.verse you can go right ahead and do it seeing as your point of divergence is prior to that event. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canadian_F_H Posted April 24, 2016 Author Share Posted April 24, 2016 I remember something about salamanders fighting against AI machines underground... that was definitely during unification. I'll get back with some other thoughts once I pulled them together. .. But I see an inside out heresy. Magnus takes his father's place in the astronomicon. The legions under their primarches crusade to unify humanity and search for the lost emperor. Horus declares himself emperor in his father's absence. And then... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DOGGED Posted April 25, 2016 Share Posted April 25, 2016 The big thing would be how the Heresy develops. No Emperor = Horus doesn't die so it would seem his takeover of Terra would be successful, but then no Emperor means no necessary Terra takeover for Horus. Protracted war, galaxy spanning. Loyalists fighting from their strongholds with infighting preventing a complete chaos victory and leading to the split of rebel and loyalist domains obeying to their corresponding warlords: the domains of Horus, those of specifically chaos god aligned ones, the Fenris ruled, the Empire of Macragge and so on... Guess chaos infighting would be at a higher scale; also the Ecclesiarchy could be the only common institution for loyalists so we would have chaos purging crusades bonding different loyalist dominions instead of black crusades bonding different chaos factions... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canadian_F_H Posted April 25, 2016 Author Share Posted April 25, 2016 I'm thinking there are 2 possible paths... A) the emperor is never found, chaos corupts some primarches, especially horus, convincing him that others threaten his power. Various vagaries occur, some primarches fall to chaos because they are told to topple horus and the betrayed is part of their "just as planed" fall from grace. Others try to distance themselves from the imperial center aka imperium secundus. Without a clear line of betrayal loyalists are slow to react to horus and his increasing megalomania. Option b There emirror is found but horus declares him false, others don't trust him for his abandonment etc. The big e rallies legions who will be loyal to him and launches his assault on Terra to reclaim humanity. Option c. (Most crazy, least fluffy) None of the primarches fall to chaos... when they find the emperor he has fallen to chaos. Humanity is doomed as all the primarches struggle to fight the big e... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlangWhanger Posted April 25, 2016 Share Posted April 25, 2016 Cool idea. I like option B presented above, as it is almost the complete opposite of what 'really' happened. I can imagine one or two legions not following Horus but choosing not to support the Emperor's campaign. At the last minute they turn up to save the day, but the Emp has been mortally wounded. Also, what about the two lost legions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Outlander90 Posted May 11, 2016 Share Posted May 11, 2016 I agree, Option B is the most practical and would echo the mindset of that time. Remember there were many false prophets and demagogues that the Great Crusade had to deal with so its quite obvious that the Emperor would have to prove Himself to His sons before they could accept him. That could lead to a number of interesting tales and tie in to the canon version where the Emperor masks his presence with several primarchs and each primarch is tested by the Emperor before he reveals his true identity. What I see happening is this; The Emperor takes his places instead of his sons and his lost to the Imperium prior to the Great Crusade. His primarch sons do not know Him as they were yet in their incubation capsules. However, the entire apparatus of the Great Crusade is already established by the Emperor including his alliance with Mars. Malcador holds the fort while the Primarchs are 'born' and their training is given over to the Custodian Leader Valdor. In a bid to separate the training regimes of all the Primarchs Valdor has them shipped to other worlds to take in its rich heritage and be unique warriors generals. Each Primarch as such grows to maturity while being trained upon their adopted homeworlds. The Great Crusade needs a military leader and while many primarchs are capable only Horus has the raw magnetism that can keep all his primarch brothers in line. The Emperor is found (perhaps on 63-19) and declares His intent to return and reclaim his title. Horus denies the Emperor as false, either due to the whispers of the dark gods or raw ambition, the Emperor has however revealed his presence to many of His sons and several turn against Horus. The Horus heresy unfolds and end with Horus cast down and Emperor mortally wounded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bjorn Firewalker Posted May 11, 2016 Share Posted May 11, 2016 The big thing would be how the Heresy develops. No Emperor = Horus doesn't die so it would seem his takeover of Terra would be successful, but then no Emperor means no necessary Terra takeover for Horus. Protracted war, galaxy spanning. Loyalists fighting from their strongholds with infighting preventing a complete chaos victory and leading to the split of rebel and loyalist domains obeying to their corresponding warlords: the domains of Horus, those of specifically chaos god aligned ones, the Fenris ruled, the Empire of Macragge and so on... Guess chaos infighting would be at a higher scale; also the Ecclesiarchy could be the only common institution for loyalists so we would have chaos purging crusades bonding different loyalist dominions instead of black crusades bonding different chaos factions... In this AU, the Emperor is spirited into the Warp, NOT THE PRIMARCHS. This may mean Horus doesn't fall to Chaos- hell, he may never even know of the Chaos Gods' existence, and consider Daemons "xenos" the way Enslavers are considered xenos- meaning he's still a Loyalist. (That's one problem I have with many "alternate history" stories, such as Harry Turtledove's: many writers EPIC FAIL to count all the butterflies flying around.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bjorn Firewalker Posted May 11, 2016 Share Posted May 11, 2016 I agree, Option B is the most practical and would echo the mindset of that time. Remember there were many false prophets and demagogues that the Great Crusade had to deal with so its quite obvious that the Emperor would have to prove Himself to His sons before they could accept him. That could lead to a number of interesting tales and tie in to the canon version where the Emperor masks his presence with several primarchs and each primarch is tested by the Emperor before he reveals his true identity. What I see happening is this; The Emperor takes his places instead of his sons and his lost to the Imperium prior to the Great Crusade. His primarch sons do not know Him as they were yet in their incubation capsules. However, the entire apparatus of the Great Crusade is already established by the Emperor including his alliance with Mars. Malcador holds the fort while the Primarchs are 'born' and their training is given over to the Custodian Leader Valdor. In a bid to separate the training regimes of all the Primarchs Valdor has them shipped to other worlds to take in its rich heritage and be unique warriors generals. Each Primarch as such grows to maturity while being trained upon their adopted homeworlds. The Great Crusade needs a military leader and while many primarchs are capable only Horus has the raw magnetism that can keep all his primarch brothers in line. The Emperor is found (perhaps on 63-19) and declares His intent to return and reclaim his title. Horus denies the Emperor as false, either due to the whispers of the dark gods or raw ambition, the Emperor has however revealed his presence to many of His sons and several turn against Horus. The Horus heresy unfolds and end with Horus cast down and Emperor mortally wounded. Valdor and Malcador would certainly recognize the Emperor. For this idea to work, you need to eliminate them BEFORE the Emperor is found, so there's no one who can verify the Emperor's identity for either faction. Hell, are those loyal to the Emperor still considered "Loyalists" in this AU? Horus has been de facto Emperor for decades, and the entire Imperium has recognized him as such for decades, while the Emperor was missing in action. (The ending seems too "everything is the same, but different!" but if your writing skills are high enough, you can make it acceptable.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canadian_F_H Posted May 12, 2016 Author Share Posted May 12, 2016 Well. Consider that primarches might not believe malcador... or horus may not care at all and deny the Emp as false even knowing he is in fact the big e. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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