Can Blood Angels still compete?

[Demoulius]

Hey all,

A little background before I post

I played pretty extensivly in the past. Played through 3rd-5th ed. Kinda stopped after that. Dident have a real game in like 3-4 years now. I got the latest dex and when I tried to put my list back together compared to the previous dex I fell flat on my face on the first trial match that I played. Kinda dident try again since then...

My gaming time is kinda limited to begin with as are my funds for buying new units but luckily I have a pretty big collection numbering at least a full battle company

Sadly noone I know still plays but the local 40k scene is booming so pick up games shouldnt be a problem

That said, can the BA's still compete in games of 40K? If so, what units are good and which ones should I avoid? I dont want WAAC lists but dont want my ass handed to me like it did in the trial game

Cheers in advance for any advice you guys can give me

[Charlo]

Put simply, yes. We can. We have good units and nice rules with a unique play style among Marines. We are fast and we grab objectives well.

 

We don't have a new fangled decurion but that just means we aren't shoehorned into one.

 

We still have good access to feel no pain and the death company are still the best CC unit on the game for thier points cost and cutomisability imo.

 

Apparently some armies see out access to +1 initiative on the charge as broken, so show then just how broken it can be.

 

Anything we REALLY want that we don't have from the new Marine codex can be allied in too (vehicle squads, better tech Marines, thunder fire cannons, storm talons, librarius conclave etc).

 

Obviously Eldar and Tau etc will still tgrow out ungodly amounts of firepower, and you'll have to play well to minimise the damage, but we can still compete. Especially with a little forge world flavour too.

Plus we have a Pistol that can reliably blow up land raiders. Eat that everyone else.

[Spagunk]

+1 for what Charlo says.

 

Broken record here: Play for objectives, not for beating face. We certainly have good access to FNP and the DC is by far our best unit but don't think they will win every time. Anything that can kill most heavy troops can easily kill DC so don't play into the enemies hands.

[Charlo]

Yep. We rock as objective work. I honestly think if Sanguinary priests were still 3 to an elites choice, but one wound We'd be a golden codex. Oh and with some buffs to the Sanguinor too :P

 

We really excel at applying mass pressure to certain targets and then pressing in when the enemy is on the back foot.

 

Case in point full flamer tactical squad. I always go on about this but if you lay down four flamer templates (Heavy Flamer, Flamer, 2 hand flamers) ten bolt shots and a frag grenade into something, your opponent will sweat!

[Demoulius]

Thanks for the speedy responses!

My old lists used to rely on tac squads, an assault squad or two (or 1 assault squad 1 DC squad), a single 6 man assault squad in a razorback and the rest filled with vehicles :) I had a Liby (sometimes a captain) as HQ and had a few priests flying and walking around with the guys to keep everyone under the FNP and FC bubble but thats obviously no longer an option

Seeing as I dident buy any new boxes yet I have no acces to grav weaponry and the like and from what im told theyre quite nice weaponry. Im not convinced though seeing as you halve your range if you move meaning theyre pretty much only useable with mounted squads. All that said I cant inmagine lack of grav weaponry alone would prevent me from putting up a fight... That said, how doese everyone cope with the lack of army wide FnP? gotta say it saved me from all sorts of trouble when I still played but honestly I dont know where to start now that its restricted to the DC and just the squad accompanying the SP

[Xenith]

Two tac squads and two assault squads is the basis for a 2 flesh tearer strike force detachment army, netting you 4 HQ slots, so each of those units can get a priest.

 

Sprinkle in DC and you have your army wide FNP ;)

[Demoulius]

Flesh Tearer strike force?

[tjr]

Flesh Tearer strike force?

 

http://bloodofkittens.com/detachment-compendium/

 

1 Mandatory Troop slot, 1 mandatory Fast slot, 5 optional Fast slots.

[Demoulius]

Thanks for the link brother ^_^

Source: Campaign: Shield of Baal: Exterminatus

We have to buy campaign books now to gain acces to formations for our armies?

[Charlo]

Welcome to games workshops ultimate up sell scheme.

 

What's even better is that they then half release the rules again in overpriced digital supplements! Years later! With no changes!

[Demoulius]

Huh.... Ive heard some locals complaining about such bussines practices but I figured they were just blowing it way out of proportion. Seems like they got that right at least...

Local gaming group has lots of Tau, crons, IG (tank armies I think) and marine players. Maybe some other armies to but tbh I havent seen any in the few times that I was there. That said what armies other bring shouldnt matter as I always try to make balanced lists

What HQ's are viable in a 1500 pts list? Again im not trying to go for WAAC list but I want to have some fun at least

[Ceril]

Short answer: No.

Anything we can do, someone else can do better.

 

We lack formations to compete with the best. Some of our units are straight up weaker/worse. Our special units are melee focused in world dominated by shooting. Our one thing we have going is Flesh Tearers Strike Force, which trades a few troops choices for Fast attack choices in the force organization chart. This way other armies can ally in lots of drop pods.

 

This is on the highest of tournament levels. Anything else we'll probably do okay. This games is a tactical game and it often comes down to your ability to lead your army. Put your units in situation where they are stronger than the corresponding opponent units. Don't be afraid to ally in units. Inquisitor for Coteaz/Servo skulls. Assassin for their expert abilities. A void shield generator will help a lot. The Skyhammer Annihilation Force goes great with the drop pod blood angels style.

[Indefragable]

Can Blood Angels compete?

 

 

 

Yes, they can. 

 

 

 

...just like the US can win the World Cup.

 

 

Will you win with them is a different story that obviously depends on a lot of factors, generalship first and foremost. A lot of it is your local meta, of course, but in mine I found that playing to the Objectives is a losing game, since nearly every other force has an edge in some way. My meta features quite a bit of Gladius's with free Drop Pods, the most resilient Necrons imaginable (15+ T5 3+ svs with 4+ Reanimation, re-rolling 1's for everything), Harlequins that blow your brains out with mind bullets then charge your *** with I7 AP2 attacks, etc... In my recent experience, I have actually found that the opposite of OBSEC works the best: go for the throat in an all-out bloody blitzkrieg. We have to gain local superiority in damage output in order to win the upper hand. The way to do that is to stay light on your feet with mobile units that can spread out or converge on targets as necessary. Not rocket science, but maneuvering is the absolute key to success with the Blood Angels these days. In the words of Liam Neeson from Batman Begins: "always mind your surroundings." Position yourself to get the Charge but not expose yourself if it fails (man, I would love faction-wide Fleet!). In contrast, if there is a unit you MUST tie up in combat, have multiple units available both to soak up Overwatch and to make sure that something ties that unit up. 

 

My meta is so oversaturated with Drop Pods I tend to stay away from them, but Drop Pods can be especially effective if you commit enough to a devastating Alpha drop. 

 

Couple units of note:

 

Death Company: for me, this comes in 2x varieties:  A) Astorath-bomb with 15x and jump packs. Go kill something. Add Dante or other source of Hit&Run for even more deadliness. This is the closest thing we have to a Death Star. B) MSU: 5x w/ Jump Packs, Bolters, and a Power Fist. Pound-for-Pound perhaps the single best unit in our Codex. The key is Relentless which lets them double-tap with Bolters before a killing-blow Charge. Or kite with 12" Jump then 24" dakka.

 

Fragioso Drop Pods : Furioso Dreadnoughts with Frag Cannon and Heavy Flamer. Devastating unit ideal for bullying units that can't fight back in melee against AV13. Drop, roast, tie-up and stomp in combat. 

 

Predator Annihilator: everyone gets wowed by a Fast Vindicator, but, in my experience, the true king of the Heavy Support slot is Fast Predators with all Lascannons. Moving 12" and firing 48" simply can not be overrated. Pair them up and hold the back field while strategically sniping. They have yet to let me down. 

 

Fast Rhinos: the best part of a Rhino is its expendability: its cheap and non-threatening enough that your enemy probably won't prioritize it. Make him pay for that decision with what you pack inside. Conversely, it's cheap enough that you can use them as expendable Line-of-Sight blockers without caring too much. Even more than their transport capacity, I find using Rhinos that can move 12" or more a turn to be fantastic as mobile sight-blockers for the above mentioned Death Company jumping up to bash some faces in. 

 

Angels's Fury Spearhead: I am absolutely convinced of the potential of this Formation. In my opinion, the rest of the Formations we got were just prototypes for all the cool ones that actually work for other Factions, but this one has seriously potential. That being said, I still have not quite "cracked the code" for how best to use it though I have had moderate success. The trick is finding the right balance of units that can best take advantage of its nifty special rules while understanding the limitations of said rules (Reserves come in first during your movement phase) and not relying on a single trick to carry the day. 

 

So yes, Blood Angels can compete in the current state of the game, but to do so it requires more effort, thinking-ahead, and audacity then your opponent. And above all else, it requires a relentless execution of the basic principles of the game, namely in the Movement phase. 

 

To be successful with the BA, you must embody the motto of Britain's owned famed operators:

 

"Who dares wins." 

[Jolemai]

Short answer: No.

Anything we can do, someone else can do better.

 

We lack formations to compete with the best. Some of our units are straight up weaker/worse. Our special units are melee focused in world dominated by shooting. Our one thing we have going is Flesh Tearers Strike Force, which trades a few troops choices for Fast attack choices in the force organization chart. This way other armies can ally in lots of drop pods.

 

This is on the highest of tournament levels. Anything else we'll probably do okay. This games is a tactical game and it often comes down to your ability to lead your army. Put your units in situation where they are stronger than the corresponding opponent units. Don't be afraid to ally in units. Inquisitor for Coteaz/Servo skulls. Assassin for their expert abilities. A void shield generator will help a lot. The Skyhammer Annihilation Force goes great with the drop pod blood angels style.

 

Quite interested to know how you would utilise a Void Shield Generator?

 

Also, one of the best players in the South African meta rocks Blood Angels and wins tournaments on a regular basis. The point is, that whilst it is possible to "compete", it's not easy to do so.

[Dosjetka]

Also, one of the best players in the South African meta rocks Blood Angels and wins tournaments on a regular basis. The point is, that whilst it is possible to "compete", it's not easy to do so.

Are you referring to Morticon?

Demoulius: I can't help with your questions concerning your Blood Angels but for what it's worth I remember you from back in the day when you were active on the board so welcome back! Always nice to see some of the older faces re-appear. And good luck with your re-entry into the world of 40k!

[appiah4]

Let's list the downers:

• Our codex was old before it ever felt new. Specifically:
  • Everything is overcosted
  • No vehicle formations
  • No decurion
  • No special rules with tangible benefits
  • No access to decent Grav-Cannon units
• Then we got the Shield of Baal..
• • No formations worth taking instead of the Baal Strike Force
  • Datasheet for Disco King Captain with totally forgettable rules
  • Datasheet for a Death Company loadout nobody would use (and it has no points savings either)
  • Datasheet for the most overcosted and least competitive unit in our roster that only has PE:Tyranids

• Then we got the second wave of units with White Dwarf rules additions:
  • Terrible formations that bait/switch you into paying points for that unit
  • A kit for the most overcosted and least competitive unit in our roster t
  • Incredibly expensive clampack figures with no datasheets or rules errata

So where are we now? On the floor and getting , basically. The BA as a standalone army has no legs to stand on against modern armies like C:SM, Eldar, Tau, etc. Put your army together using our codex, and you'll get , hard. The only upside to this whole story is that you aren't meant to play BA as a standalone army anymore. That idea is completely dead since the latter half of 6th Edition, so if you are plaing a BA army for the flavor, let's review your advantages..

• The Death Company is one of the most versatile units in the game. It can be taken in several different ways to screw with your enemy in just as many ways (Drop Pod, Jump Pack, Storm Raven, Land Raider, Boltguns, Melee loadout, MSU, 10 bodies, 15 bodies, 30 bodies.. They all WORK)
• We have the single best melee dreadnought in the game (despite not having a 4A stat) in the Furioso, and it also works in several loadouts (Drop Pod, Storm Raven, Frag Cannon, Dual Fists)
• We have great Tactical marines. This gets neglected all the time and it pains me to no end, but Red Thirst marines with Heavy Flamers? They make EXCELLENT assault support, use them as such.
• Fast Rhino Chassis: Not only do we have the best mid-range firesupport tank in the Baal Predator, but we also have the best Predator variant of all SM armies, the Fast Annihilator. Give that baby a double lascannon turret (you don't really even need sponsons for this thing, keep it cheap) and it will wreck face. Vindicators would be an option had we had the Vindicator formation, alas, they are a trap.
• Assault squads with free Drop Pods or Rhinos and double meltaguns? Yes please.
• BA Librarians with Presciense or Thaumaturgy still give every other Librarian a run for their points.
• FA slot Drop Pods for things you need delivered to the enemy's doorstep whatever the cost.

And then there are units we have that are on par with other SM armies:

• Our chaplains are comparable-ish
• Our scouts are comparable-ish
• Our Sternguard are comparable-ish
• Our Land Raiders are comparable-ish

So when I make a BA army, I look over this list, and pick the ones that tick any boxes for my idea of what kind of strategy I have, then move on to filling others from C:SM or C:DA or what have you.. And make no mistake, those ally units make up half of my army (that speaks volumes about how weak this codex is) but it allows me to play a BA army, or feel like I am playing one anyway:

• Devastators may as well be taken with an allied Skyhammer formation
• If you are going for multiple air units may as well go with an allied Storm Wing formation
• Terminators may as well be taken from C:SM or C:DA
• Captains may as well be taken from C:SM or C:DA
• Bike units may as well be taken from C:SM or C:DA

[Emicus]

Fast Vindicators >:3

[appiah4]

Fast Demolishers >:3

 

Would have been useful if we actually had the vindicator formation.

[The Unseen]

Not even squadrons would've been necessary. Just having our Baals back in fast attack would've been enough to let you get enough armor saturation of av13 on the table to make them worth it. But when every tank, plus our only flyer/source of anti-air all share a slot, its impossible.

[Emicus]

Don't you just wish BA were rolled into the vanilla marine codex with some chapter tactic traits and a supplement for formations? *takes cover*

​Is the armoured task force really much to be envy though? I mean hurray you *must* buy a Techmarine that can't keep up with your Fast vehicles... There are good formations to be sure, but I don't feel this is one of them.

​My view on formations is it doesn't really matter where they are from. A marine is a marine, so any marine formation is fair game.

[Jolemai]

Let's list the downers:

• Our codex was old before it ever felt new. Specifically:
  • Everything is overcosted
  • No vehicle formations
  • No decurion
  • No special rules with tangible benefits
  • No access to decent Grav-Cannon units
• Then we got the Shield of Baal..
• • No formations worth taking instead of the Baal Strike Force
  • Datasheet for Disco King Captain with totally forgettable rules
  • Datasheet for a Death Company loadout nobody would use (and it has no points savings either)
  • Datasheet for the most overcosted and least competitive unit in our roster that only has PE:Tyranids

• Then we got the second wave of units with White Dwarf rules additions:
  • Terrible formations that bait/switch you into paying points for that unit
  • A kit for the most overcosted and least competitive unit in our roster t
  • Incredibly expensive clampack figures with no datasheets or rules errata

So where are we now? On the floor and getting , basically. The BA as a standalone army has no legs to stand on against modern armies like C:SM, Eldar, Tau, etc. Put your army together using our codex, and you'll get , hard. The only upside to this whole story is that you aren't meant to play BA as a standalone army anymore. That idea is completely dead since the latter half of 6th Edition, so if you are plaing a BA army for the flavor, let's review your advantages..

• The Death Company is one of the most versatile units in the game. It can be taken in several different ways to screw with your enemy in just as many ways (Drop Pod, Jump Pack, Storm Raven, Land Raider, Boltguns, Melee loadout, MSU, 10 bodies, 15 bodies, 30 bodies.. They all WORK)
• We have the single best melee dreadnought in the game (despite not having a 4A stat) in the Furioso, and it also works in several loadouts (Drop Pod, Storm Raven, Frag Cannon, Dual Fists)
• We have great Tactical marines. This gets neglected all the time and it pains me to no end, but Red Thirst marines with Heavy Flamers? They make EXCELLENT assault support, use them as such.
• Fast Rhino Chassis: Not only do we have the best mid-range firesupport tank in the Baal Predator, but we also have the best Predator variant of all SM armies, the Fast Annihilator. Give that baby a double lascannon turret (you don't really even need sponsons for this thing, keep it cheap) and it will wreck face. Vindicators would be an option had we had the Vindicator formation, alas, they are a trap.
• Assault squads with free Drop Pods or Rhinos and double meltaguns? Yes please.
• BA Librarians with Presciense or Thaumaturgy still give every other Librarian a run for their points.
• FA slot Drop Pods for things you need delivered to the enemy's doorstep whatever the cost.

And then there are units we have that are on par with other SM armies:

• Our chaplains are comparable-ish
• Our scouts are comparable-ish
• Our Sternguard are comparable-ish
• Our Land Raiders are comparable-ish

So when I make a BA army, I look over this list, and pick the ones that tick any boxes for my idea of what kind of strategy I have, then move on to filling others from C:SM or C:DA or what have you.. And make no mistake, those ally units make up half of my army (that speaks volumes about how weak this codex is) but it allows me to play a BA army, or feel like I am playing one anyway:

• Devastators may as well be taken with an allied Skyhammer formation
• If you are going for multiple air units may as well go with an allied Storm Wing formation
• Terminators may as well be taken from C:SM or C:DA
• Captains may as well be taken from C:SM or C:DA
• Bike units may as well be taken from C:SM or C:DA

A bit of context is required here. The listed "downers" are only that through retrospect as they all appeared in a Codex six months later. Hardly anyone was banging that drum upon release.

Fast Demolishers >:3

Would have been useful if we actually had the vindicator formation.

The Vindicator Squadron in Codex Space Marines follows the rules for Vehicle Squadrons in the BRB. This has significant drawbacks that need to be taken into consideration which balance out the benefits. Additionally, if it takes a casualty it loses the special benefit from taking three of them. I should also point out that what you take for granted and consider useless, many folk drool over and wish their Vindicator was as cool as ours.

Not even squadrons would've been necessary. Just having our Baals back in fast attack would've been enough to let you get enough armor saturation of av13 on the table to make them worth it. But when every tank, plus our only flyer/source of anti-air all share a slot, its impossible.

Baal Predators don't need to be in the Fast Attack slot. Nothing stops you from fielding a second detachment and most of us take a second HQ anyway. As for Troop choices, use the Flesh Tearers Strike Force Detachment, take one of each, take it's transport from the Fast Attack slot and bump, it's done.

*** *** ***

Just to head this off early, can we not turn this into a whine thread? Otherwise I'm going to have to go shopping for some cheese to go with it.

[Xenith]

Exactly, the stuff that people are complaining about wasn't a complaint when they were released, they have just been outdated fast.

 

Look to the SM forum and see exactly how many people use things like 3 tank formations in their armies. Very few, although there's been a bit of activity with 3 whirlwind formations because of Telion's warlord trait. 

 

Yes, BA can be competitive, but you wont see them taking top spots at all the tournaments because the people that are 100% out to win those tournaments jump ship to other armies with perceived higher power levels, so it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. 

[appiah4]

Let's list the downers:

• Our codex was old before it ever felt new. Specifically:
  • Everything is overcosted
  • No vehicle formations
  • No decurion
  • No special rules with tangible benefits
  • No access to decent Grav-Cannon units
• Then we got the Shield of Baal..
• • No formations worth taking instead of the Baal Strike Force
  • Datasheet for Disco King Captain with totally forgettable rules
  • Datasheet for a Death Company loadout nobody would use (and it has no points savings either)
  • Datasheet for the most overcosted and least competitive unit in our roster that only has PE:Tyranids

• Then we got the second wave of units with White Dwarf rules additions:
  • Terrible formations that bait/switch you into paying points for that unit
  • A kit for the most overcosted and least competitive unit in our roster t
  • Incredibly expensive clampack figures with no datasheets or rules errata

So where are we now? On the floor and getting , basically. The BA as a standalone army has no legs to stand on against modern armies like C:SM, Eldar, Tau, etc. Put your army together using our codex, and you'll get , hard. The only upside to this whole story is that you aren't meant to play BA as a standalone army anymore. That idea is completely dead since the latter half of 6th Edition, so if you are plaing a BA army for the flavor, let's review your advantages..

• The Death Company is one of the most versatile units in the game. It can be taken in several different ways to screw with your enemy in just as many ways (Drop Pod, Jump Pack, Storm Raven, Land Raider, Boltguns, Melee loadout, MSU, 10 bodies, 15 bodies, 30 bodies.. They all WORK)
• We have the single best melee dreadnought in the game (despite not having a 4A stat) in the Furioso, and it also works in several loadouts (Drop Pod, Storm Raven, Frag Cannon, Dual Fists)
• We have great Tactical marines. This gets neglected all the time and it pains me to no end, but Red Thirst marines with Heavy Flamers? They make EXCELLENT assault support, use them as such.
• Fast Rhino Chassis: Not only do we have the best mid-range firesupport tank in the Baal Predator, but we also have the best Predator variant of all SM armies, the Fast Annihilator. Give that baby a double lascannon turret (you don't really even need sponsons for this thing, keep it cheap) and it will wreck face. Vindicators would be an option had we had the Vindicator formation, alas, they are a trap.
• Assault squads with free Drop Pods or Rhinos and double meltaguns? Yes please.
• BA Librarians with Presciense or Thaumaturgy still give every other Librarian a run for their points.
• FA slot Drop Pods for things you need delivered to the enemy's doorstep whatever the cost.

And then there are units we have that are on par with other SM armies:

• Our chaplains are comparable-ish
• Our scouts are comparable-ish
• Our Sternguard are comparable-ish
• Our Land Raiders are comparable-ish

So when I make a BA army, I look over this list, and pick the ones that tick any boxes for my idea of what kind of strategy I have, then move on to filling others from C:SM or C:DA or what have you.. And make no mistake, those ally units make up half of my army (that speaks volumes about how weak this codex is) but it allows me to play a BA army, or feel like I am playing one anyway:

• Devastators may as well be taken with an allied Skyhammer formation
• If you are going for multiple air units may as well go with an allied Storm Wing formation
• Terminators may as well be taken from C:SM or C:DA
• Captains may as well be taken from C:SM or C:DA
• Bike units may as well be taken from C:SM or C:DA

A bit of context is required here. The listed "downers" are only that through retrospect as they all appeared in a Codex six months later. Hardly anyone was banging that drum upon release.

To be fair, six months for a codex with a presumable lifespan of 4+ years is very, very short. It was basically barely out of the door, when all those listed issues surfaced. As soon as the C:SM was released, C:BA was 50% obsolete. The doom and gloom train took off before anybody had much of a chance to beat the glory drums. We got :cussed over, that's what it is. And if admitting that is whining, well, I'm out of this thread. The man asked if we could be competitive, and I gave an honest answer. Anyone who feels like it can take it from here and lie to him about how strong our codex is.

[Bartali]

Just to head this off early, can we not turn this into a whine thread? Otherwise I'm going to have to go shopping for some cheese to go with it.

I don't think anyone is whining here, just being realistic. If we're only allowed to be super-positive about BA I'll go and get some sparkles to go with my posts

To the OP. I can't over emphasise this enough - It depends on your pick-up meta. Stronger builds from SM, Eldar and Tau will give BA problems. It might be worth asking around in your shop/club to see what people are running and then post back here with some example lists.

[Emicus]

I think what we need is a better distinction for "competetive". I propose 3 levels: GT, FLGS tournament and "normal games". Any Codex can do well in the last two, and 99% of people can't play at a GT even if someone gave them the best list/army in the game.

​So you need to ask yourself where you fall in that spectrum

​Edit: and if you're a GT player, we will be asking advice from YOU, not the other way around...