Can Blood Angels still compete?

[Indefragable]

I think what we need is a better distinction for "competetive". I propose 3 levels: GT, FLGS tournament and "normal games". Any Codex can do well in the last two, and 99% of people can't play at a GT even if someone gave them the best list/army in the game.

​So you need to ask yourself where you fall in that spectrum

​Edit: and if you're a GT player, we will be asking advice from YOU, not the other way around...

Well said.

"Competitive" definitely could use some specific clarification. That being said, to me, and in my meta, "competitive" means being able to have a shot against ANYTHING that may appear on the game table. Many games will be way tougher than others, but the idea is that your army is equipped with the right tools to be able to stand a fighting chance against just about anything. For example, in my meta, one of the toughest armies is an Imperial Fist CAD. According to the internet, this should not work at all, but basically he has 3x elements: Bolters, Meltas, and Lascannon Dev's. Add in a "scout bomb" in Land Raider Crusader to rumble down the middle as a Distraction Carnifex, and Librarians for psykery, and it is a brilliant, brilliant list. The way he plays it is simple: anything that can't be bolter'ed to death is hit my meltas. Anything flying gets shot by Twin-Linked stuff. Are there hard counters to this? Of course. But the point is he has given himself specific tools that do specific things very well, and enough of them, that he can handle just about anything. Those things he can't handle (and there are few), he simply ignores and focuses on wiping the floor with those things he can. We have another tournament-level player in the club who uses Tyranid FMC spam. How does this Imperial Fist player handle that? Kill all the ground units as fast as possible and then take Twin-Linked shots at the FMCs at his leisure.

I point out the above to demonstrate the experiences I have had and how I have been focusing on my own Blood Angels. For me, the IF player's concepts (I can't stress this enough, there is a difference between copying a list and being inspired by a list) are the format to follow. I think I have almost cracked the code, but I need some more battlefield data before reporting back.

[Xenith]

 

To be fair, six months for a codex with a presumable lifespan of 4+ years is very, very short.  It was basically barely out of the door, when all those listed issues surfaced.  As soon as the C:SM was released, C:BA was 50% obsolete.  

 

Agree, but all of this has happened before, all of this will happen again.

[Remtek]

I play games quite often, ranging from competitive waac lists to fluffy games. I also play Space Marines and a little Guard too, but mostly BA. The strength and weakness of the BA book is we don't have that many horrible units, but we don't really have any 10/10 units either. We can create a wide range of decent lists, but none of them are gonna be GT winning (maybe with Forgeworld depending on meta). For example, none of our codex units can really match a flyrant point for point, but nids have more 2/10 units. Same with CSM, you can build a stronger mono CSM list taking 3 spawnstars and some hellbrutes and drakes, but the CSM book is overall much weaker. 

 

Our 5th edition book was more polarizing, while the new book is more balanced internally.

 

When playing competitive SM lists it feels much easier, due to having a wider range of tools and options, but thats just my opinion. If Forgeworld is accepted BA should be fine in a competitive meta. If i were to rank the top 4 forgeworld units from top to bottom for BA it would be.

 

1. Quad Launcher (experimental rules, but accepted in most of the tournaments i play in)

2. Whirlwind Scorpius (with the ignore cover legacy)

3. Fireraptor

4. Sicaran

 

If you decide to create a really strong list playing vs a random opponent i'd bring some weaker units as well so you can tone down your lists as many of these FW units will steamroll casual/semi competitive lists.

[dakkamasta]

In regards to forgeworld models I completely agree with Remtek. I don't use quad launchers with my BA since i try to avoid too many stationary units, but I can vouch for the Whirlwind Scorpius and the Sicaran as 2 of the best tools available to us. In fact in competitive games I find it hard to not bring at least one of these, if not both (with a chaplain). The Javelin Attack Speeder shouldn't be overlooked either, you can only take one per slot but for the same price as a typhoon speeder you get +1 front and side AV, twin-linked on the typhoon, outflank, and access to 2 hunter killer missiles at the cost of a melta bomb each. I've never been dissapointed by these.

 

In terms of overall competitiveness, I think Blood Angels get a worse reputation than they are deserved. My meta includes chaos space marines, daemons, cult mechanicus/skitarii, imperial knights, dark eldar, orks, space wolves, dark angels, and necrons (and he always brings a solid decurion list). The only army I've had a hard time beating is the necron decurion, which I have been able to beat. Against every other army I've got a 3:1 win/loss ratio, in fact everyone in my gaming group fears my Blood Angels on the table. It's all about good list building and smart tactics on the table. We might not have crazy formation detachments of super cheese, but i find it much more satisfying that I can make my friend tremble with fear as he's pulling out his canoptek harvest from his carry case, and all I'm running is a CAD.

 

With a little help from allies we can really get an excellent competitive edge. A lot of people stand by running mono-codex lists which is fine, but we have so many more tools available to us, and sometimes that one unit that we couldn't get in our codex can make all the difference. Grav centurions in a pod are a perfect example. Throw them in an allied detachment and now you're packing some scary AP 2 firepower. Imperial knights are excellent with BA aswell. A single Knight Crusader in the backfield can almost singlehandedly give us the fire support we need for our close combat units to get across the field. A stormwing formation can be excellent anti-air and good fire support whilst also being very fluffy for BA. 7th edition is the multi-codex edition. I've also more fluffy lists done with 2-3 codexes than i have with a single dex sometimes. There are so many excellent combinations that can also make for a really nice themed list.

 

So can BA still compete? Sure I think so. Obviously you will have a hard time against cheesy Eldar and Necrons lists, but everyone struggles against them, doesn't mean that every other codex is terrible. We have a solid codex with great internal balance and have access to extra tools via allies and forgeworld units. Between all of these things I honestly don't understand how people are struggling to make a solid BA list.

[Phiasco]

Don't you just wish BA were rolled into the vanilla marine codex with some chapter tactic traits and a supplement for formations? *takes cover

*helps back up to your feet* Don't take cover, I've had the exact same thought. The Blood Angel section would have to be fairly large, but we'd probably get a supplement anyway. Also, as compared to dark angels or space wolves, blood angels try to follow the codex astartes as closely as they can. It'd make sense to me for blood angels to be a 'codex chapter'

[appiah4]

 

Don't you just wish BA were rolled into the vanilla marine codex with some chapter tactic traits and a supplement for formations? *takes cover

*helps back up to your feet* Don't take cover, I've had the exact same thought. The Blood Angel section would have to be fairly large, but we'd probably get a supplement anyway. Also, as compared to dark angels or space wolves, blood angels try to follow the codex astartes as closely as they can. It'd make sense to me for blood angels to be a 'codex chapter'

Fwiw Im with you two 100%

[The Unseen]

I would do it with every marine faction at this point. Main book, with the supplement giving stuff like the alternate Psychic powers, unique units, and such. Plus, would be easy at that point to give all the other first founding chapters an actual supplement, (Well, and black templars, lets not forget them like GW seems to.) Would love to see stuff like the Imperial Fists breacher squads, close combat bikers for white scars, the ravenguards stealth optimized vehicles, :cussING SWORD BRETHREN, Terminator equipped sergeants, etc. 

[Spagunk]

I wouldn't like to be rolled into C:SM but I can't fault the logic.

 

However to me it feels like they were just starting to make them more unique with the PDF Codex and then 5thEd codex. Then, they did an about turn and now there really isn't too much difference. So in a way I feel like they expanded to being really unique and are now being deflated back into a second founding type chapter.

 

But I would point out that really, it doesn't matter how codex adherent/divergent they are. It's all about models. We have a lot of unique models that make us distinct from generic marines: red. Just makes sense to keep them separate because we have a good range of mini's.

[Charlo]

Yep.

 

The mini support is what will keep up separate. We have totally unique kits, and quite a few at that!

 

-Librarian TDA

-Priest

-Chaplain

-Tac Squad

-Triple Dread Box

-Sang Guard

-Death Company

-TDA Assault Squad

-"Karlaen"

 

Plus all the old/ 5th edition special characters too!

 

Honestly if/ when our Decurion comes (not that we strictly need it...) we'll be in a fantastic position, especially as that can patch our simple, yet elegantly powerful chapter tactics.

[Riot Earp]

What i fear is that there will be a shiny new csm codex waiting around the corner with the bees knees stuff which will make Decurion BA obsolete again.

[Charlo]

Or maybe we'll be the Shiny's?

 

Or like DA's current state we'll be the sweet middle ground.

 

If you've not seen the updated wolves codex I'd take a look - great example of what could be done with us :)

[Demoulius]

Thanks for all the many replies here guys ^_^

I dont mean to make this a whine fest, the reason I asked is because the local meta has changed alot and ive seen things used in normal games that im not sure how to fight. Case in point those imperial knights, what am I supposed to do about those? Ive seen people use them in normal games

Same goes for all the monstrous creatures that seem to have popped up all over the place. Tau have them, eldar have them. Seems every army has them but marines... Not saying we SHOULD have one, but theyre quite tough and im not sure how I should deal with them

My previous lists were about a 50/50 mix of close combat and ranged shooting. The assault elements were all covered by FnP and often I had a priest near a back field objective giving them FnP to. With the new dex thats no longer possible as theyre single HQ slots now

I could go with 2 seperate FOC's I guess but isent that kind of breaking the point? I know that back in the day at least it was kind of frowned upon or at the very least not logical to do so. Seems that now its almost needed?

[Charlo]

Sadly, while everyone got big monstrous creatures Space Marines in general got Grav... Except we didn't :P

 

Powerfist Death Company or Assault Terminators aren't a bad shout, but the latter is rather unwieldy.

 

In the end, to fight monsters we need to create monsters of our own.

 

If you want, you can bring your own knight - the synergy they share with BA being noted across the board a lot already.

 

Or you Bring the Leviathan Dread from FW - especially now it's new Melta Weapon is out it can REALLY lay the hurt on super heavies and MC alike!

[SM1981]

Thanks for all the many replies here guys ^_^

I dont mean to make this a whine fest, the reason I asked is because the local meta has changed alot and ive seen things used in normal games that im not sure how to fight. Case in point those imperial knights, what am I supposed to do about those? Ive seen people use them in normal games

Same goes for all the monstrous creatures that seem to have popped up all over the place. Tau have them, eldar have them. Seems every army has them but marines... Not saying we SHOULD have one, but theyre quite tough and im not sure how I should deal with them

My previous lists were about a 50/50 mix of close combat and ranged shooting. The assault elements were all covered by FnP and often I had a priest near a back field objective giving them FnP to. With the new dex thats no longer possible as theyre single HQ slots now

I could go with 2 seperate FOC's I guess but isent that kind of breaking the point? I know that back in the day at least it was kind of frowned upon or at the very least not logical to do so. Seems that now its almost needed?

I like vanguard vets against monstrous creatures and armour, primarily because you can give every member of the squad melta bombs.

Take ten marines. Give them all melta bombs on top of two combat weapons (chainsword and bolt pistol to help offset the cost of the bombs, and keeps them at I4). Add a Sanguinary Priest to the squad to give them "feel no pain" (makes them more survivable), and +1 to WS.

Charge said creature and by the time you've added up the A2 stat line and bonuses for extra weapons etc, that's more than enough Str8 AP1 dice to kill anything.

[Xenith]

 

Charge said creature and by the time you've added up the A2 stat line and bonuses for extra weapons etc, that's more than enough Str8 AP1 dice to kill anything.

 

 

Unfortunately, you only ever get a single attack with a grenade, period - so the statline and CCW's count for nothing.

[SM1981]

 

 

 

Charge said creature and by the time you've added up the A2 stat line and bonuses for extra weapons etc, that's more than enough Str8 AP1 dice to kill anything.

 

Unfortunately, you only ever get a single attack with a grenade, period - so the statline and CCW's count for nothing.

Whoops!

 

I've run that a couple of times (and had it run against my own armour) and never had it quibbled... Will know for next time though!

 

Still the sentiment stands - stick enough melta bombs on anything and it will die.

[Father Mapple]

 

 

I could go with 2 seperate FOC's I guess but isent that kind of breaking the point? I know that back in the day at least it was kind of frowned upon or at the very least not logical to do so. Seems that now its almost needed?

 

Seriously, don't worry about the multiple Force Org Charts. Truly, just forget the old idea of only so many heavy support per 2000 points or whatever 3-5th holdover you have in mind. I find myself doing it unconsciously too, but it's really fluffy and fun to use multiple FOCs from different kinds of detachments.

 

Examples I've done or am working towards: Want an all Death Co Force? Use Strike Force Mortalis formation and another Baal Strike Force filled with Astaroth, Lemartes, Raphen's Squad, Cassor, and another Stormraven. Want an invasion force of Blood Angels? Use two Baal Strike Forces or Flesh Tearer's Strikeforces, and fly 4 stormravens while drop podding everything else. Put your terminators in Flesh Tearer Strike Force drop pods to keep them safe. Etc.. Use a StormWing formation with the regular strikeforce and get 2 more grade A flyers from the SM codex just for the price of a dataslate. 

 

60 scouts not enough for you? Do 100 using two Combined Arms Detatchments. 20 Objective Secured scouts literally infiltrating all over the board sounds awesome to stop a drop pod force. But a scout company is super fluffy!

[Charlo]

Honestly the only thing I ever run out of these days is HQ slots and Drop Pods.

 

I like to ensure my Psychic phase is a safe bet with 2 libby dreads, Mephiston and another libby OK!

[CaptainHelion]

I tend to run two BSFs as standard, as I like to run two Ravens and a pair of Vindicators. So I just run my scouts in squads of five instead of ten, and grab an extra Libby or Priest

[appiah4]

I tend to run out of HS because I cant have enough baals and stormravens.

[Remtek]

Thanks for all the many replies here guys

Case in point those imperial knights, what am I supposed to do about those? Ive seen people use them in normal games

I played had a recent 1650 games vs 4 knights, quad mortars combined with some melta at a different shield facing should drop them quite fast. Mortars are 4 str 8 shots with re-roll pens for 60 points a pop. Assault marines with melta in a pod/rhino or multi melta attack bikes all work quite well.

When playing vs multiple knights they will often have a bonus when staying close together (re-roll ion shield, or 3+ ion etc). Some useful things would be to split your army in half and stay away from the middle. Hide your melta as much as possible and put models 20-21" away from one of the knights. This will force him to split off knights and take risky charges. Rhinos are also great at bating charges since you can't consolidate after charging veichle. If you put a rhino 18" from a knight with no other charge targets theres a good chanse they will go for it. You can place other units like attack bikes behind cover to get side shots after the charge.

Knights are not that shooty for their points, so you shouldt really be in a rush to get into combat.

Also when charging knights space out your models as much as possible when piling in (you can space them 0,9") to mitigate stomp attacks. Tactical marines are great at tieing down knights for example. They only hit on 4's and it will often take multiple turns of stomps to clear the squad.

Space out objectives as much as possible.

Against gargantuans we really don't have anything practical to kill them with. Mephiston/Libby dread can do a number on them, or anything with high str force, but getting them into combat + casting powers makes it difficult in practice. Havent played vs the new stormsurge, but vs the wraith knight ignoring them usually works out. Ranged D isnt that scary for most BA lists. Just make sure your list is good at taking out bikes and warp spiders (cough, quad mortars and scorpius) If you do bring a scorpius, make sure to hide it from from the wraithknight.

Sidenote, nice model alternative: I asked a for a price without the gunner, they knocked off a few euros on the order)

http://hitechminiatures.com/bio-tech-covenant/186-hellfire-cannon.htmlhttp://remtek.be/mortar.jpg

[Emicus]

...Case in point those imperial knights, what am I supposed to do about those? Ive seen people use them in normal games

I could go with 2 seperate FOC's I guess but isent that kind of breaking the point? I know that back in the day at least it was kind of frowned upon or at the very least not logical to do so. Seems that now its almost needed?

Bring a knight of your own? Seriously, the kit is WONDERFUL and the rules are great so it's only down to whether you like the aesthetics.. (and who doesn't?)

​As for single FOC, that doesn't really exist anymore. It's just artificially restricting yourself, no different from anyone who says "Yeah so I always take 6 troops before I take any other units because obviously there's more troops than tanks, right"

[Indefragable]

...Case in point those imperial knights, what am I supposed to do about those? Ive seen people use them in normal games

I could go with 2 seperate FOC's I guess but isent that kind of breaking the point? I know that back in the day at least it was kind of frowned upon or at the very least not logical to do so. Seems that now its almost needed?

Bring a knight of your own? Seriously, the kit is WONDERFUL and the rules are great so it's only down to whether you like the aesthetics.. (and who doesn't?)

​As for single FOC, that doesn't really exist anymore. It's just artificially restricting yourself, no different from anyone who says "Yeah so I always take 6 troops before I take any other units because obviously there's more troops than tanks, right"

I don't like Imperial Knights. :)

Hey, not knockin' 'em, just not my thing. Too godzilla movie for me, personally, but I get the appeal for others.

[Charlo]

Then the Leviathan Dread is for you my friend!

[Indefragable]

 

 

Space out objectives as much as possible.

 

Against gargantuans we really don't have anything practical to kill them with. Mephiston/Libby dread can do a number on them, or anything with high str force, but getting them into combat + casting powers makes it difficult in practice. Havent played vs the new stormsurge, but vs the wraith knight ignoring them usually works out. Ranged D isnt that scary for most BA lists. Just make sure your list is good at taking out bikes and warp spiders (cough, quad mortars and scorpius) If you do bring a scorpius, make sure to hide it from from the wraithknight.

 

 

 

Yes to spacing out objectives. My club has a whole thread on our forum called "it's not just list building!" that goes into strategies about all the things you can do to influence the game (terrain placement, objective placement, how/when/where to deploy your forces) beyond just building something that looks nasty on paper. The best players I have encountered are the ones who view list building as one part of the entire package. List building is key, no doubt, but it really is just filling your tool box for that match.

 

I do feel that Gargantuan Creatures are the thorn for our current Codex. There are few organic assets that you will realistically bring EVERY game that can deal with them. If you bring Mephy or a Librarian Dreadnought all the time, then that's one thing, but they can both get stomped out. Likewise, unless Plasma is useful to your meta all the time, most units that could/would bring it are more often toting Melta instead (btw, awesomely annoying unit is 5x Assault Marines with Jump Packs, 2x Plasma guns and and a Combi-Plasma on the Sgt. 36" S7 AP2 threat range, but not practical for every game). Grav-gun bikers work well, but that's because they work well against most scary things. My lists typically rely on either Air power (Stormravens or allied Stormtalons) or tri-Las Predators (Predator Annhilator) for non-Melta, non-Power Fist anti-tank/anti-MC work, but against all the D weaponry a Wraithknight can throw out, the Preds don't last very long. 

 

Not to derail this into a wishlist thread, but If I had my druthers, I would make Sanguinary Guard the MC/GC/Character hunting unit of the Codex. I mean, they are the most elite members of the entire Chapter hand-picked for personal badassery and were designed to be the only mortals in the galaxy that could actually keep up with Sanguinius himself. I would love to see them with Monster Hunter native, and their Swords have +2 S so that they are at least on par with normal Relic Blades. I also would love to see all Two-Handed weapons get Shred or something so they actually have a reason to exist, but now I am getting way ahead of myself.