Can Blood Angels still compete?

[Indefragable]

I'm still against bolters, but YMMV.

 

It basically boils down to do you want an extra S5 AP- attack in combat or do you want a S4 AP5 outside of it.

 

I am with you in spirit. I would prefer to get them the extra S5 attack, but with how unreliable it is getting into combat these days, I find that the extra dakka of the bolters is a concession to "how the tabletop actually plays out." 

 

Also, when confronted with Death Stars or other fast units, you can kite them along. 

[Remtek]

So I tried to create some lists for fun. I slowly got more and more depressed as I went on however. I added in allies to make up the areas we are weak in but then I realized I ended up spending more points on allies than actual BA.

 

From everyone has said on here it seems that DC are one of our best units. How many does everyone run normally? I tried doing 4 5 man squads and that looks quite decent. After that however I feel like there is simply nothing else that's interesting or worth it. Our HQs are pretty good I guess, as well as Dante.

 

Am I overreacting or this the reality of our situation? Am I overlooking something?

 

This just my opinion, but for competitive games i'd just leave the DC on the shelf. I havent used them in recent tournaments and don't really miss them. Forgeworld has a lot of great shooting options, and we can build a pretty good msu core using assault marines in rhinos. BA scouts are also pretty solid. 

 

For assault there are so many good fomations that fit well with BA. Shadowstrike kill team with vanguards assaulting out of deep strike for example, amazing vs Eldar. Or an Iron Hand command squad with stormshields on bikes. Assault units need to either be very durable or have some mechanic like the shadowstrike kill team. 

 

Dante is still really good.

[ThatOneMarshal]

How about something like this for a list:

 

+++ Back to method (1848pts) +++

 

++ Blood Angels: Codex (2014) (BA Baal Strike Force) (1473pts) ++

 

+ HQ+

 

Chaplain (105pts) [bolt Pistol, Crozius Arcanum, Jump pack, Warlord]

 

+ Elites ) +

 

Death Company Squad (140pts) [4x Bolt Pistol, Bolter, 4x Chainsword, 5x Death Company Marine, Jump Pack, Power Fist]

 

Death Company Squad (140pts) [4x Bolt Pistol, Bolter, 4x Chainsword, 5x Death Company Marine, Jump Pack, Power Fist]

 

Death Company Squad (140pts) [4x Bolt Pistol, Bolter, 4x Chainsword, 5x Death Company Marine, Jump Pack, Power Fist]

 

Death Company Squad (140pts) [4x Bolt Pistol, Bolter, 4x Chainsword, 5x Death Company Marine, Jump Pack, Power Fist]

 

+ Troops+

 

Cassor the Damned (140pts)

 

Scout Squad (59pts) [4x Scouts, 4x Sniper Rifle]

····Scout Sergeant [boltgun]

 

+ Fast Attack (299pts) +

 

Assault Squad (132pts) [5x Assault Marines, 2x Meltagun, Rhino]

····Assault Sergeant [bolt Pistol, Combi-Melta]

 

Assault Squad (132pts) [5x Assault Marines, 2x Meltagun, Rhino]

····Assault Sergeant [bolt Pistol, Combi-Melta]

 

Drop Pod

 

+ Heavy Support +

 

Sicaran Battle Tank (155pts) [Armoured Ceramite, Relic of the Armoury]

 

Sicaran Battle Tank (155pts) [Armoured Ceramite, Relic of the Armoury]

 

++ Imperial Knights: Codex (2015) (IK Oathsworn Detachment) (375pts) ++

 

+ Lord of War+

 

Knight Warden (375pts) [Heavy Stubber, Reaper Chainsword]

 

Created with BattleScribe

 

So looking at the list I figured that I need more ap 2 and more anti tank. I don't think by any means I can deal with a Gladius spam. The most powerful list I play against is probalby Gladius, necron decision, and tau at the moment. AA is another problem, maybe switch out the sicarians for a Deredo or grab me some allied jets from the space marines?

[Remtek]

Points are off for assault squads, think it should be 115, drop the sniper rifles better to keep them out of los. Sicaran is pretty good, but there are less bike lists now and wave serpents are rare. Still a good tank, but check out scorpius and quad mortars. Warden is great, dont leave home without the veritas.

[ThatOneMarshal]

Good suggestions defintly, I still like the sicarians a lot as they are practically better Baal predators and provide some nice medium Strength firepower.

 

Do you find the flesh tearer detachment better than the regular Baal strike force? Maybe spake MSU assualt marines?

[CaptainHelion]

As far as I have seen, the main draw for the FTSF is only one compulsory Troop slot, although having six Fast Attack slots is a close second. The command benefits aren't great, and both the Relics and Warlord traits are okay but nothing special.

So the main draw of the FTSF is the ability to spam FA slots. Assault Marines with double melta crop up a lot, as do grav-bikers.

Interestingly, this pairs really well with one of the Flesh Tearer relics. The Shield of Cretacia is a set of power armour that makes you Immune to Poison. Slap that on a Bike special character, and watch anyone with significant amounts of poison do nothing to you.

[Morticon]

I have a fairly controversial point of view at the moment- and its at least partially influenced by my dissonance in dealing with the weakness of the codex and the love of the BA.

All in all, as a straight codex, with no FW or allies, we're by far the weakest. This has a lot to do with how and more importantly when the formations were designed.

(And in actual fact, if you play 1 CAD FOC, you may find BA aren't that bad after all - in fact, i think more tournies should be running "legacy" style arrangements where its 1 FOC, no LOW, no forts - just old skool, 2HQ, 6troops, 3,3 and 3 - but thats another convo).

So, I still play my "Children of Sanguinius" - my home brew chapter. Their heraldy, their colours, their history. And i've always played them BA rules before. But, they just cannot compete at the level I need to at the moment. HOWEVER, GW has given me a new lease on the game in terms of how easy theyve made if for me to incorporate other SM elements into my game and not have it mess with my BA vibe.

Take the list above. While strong, what's "BA" about it? a whole bunch of DC and a DC dread? That's not how BA fight. That's not a "BA list" other than using BA units in it. (and thats not to diss a fellow brothers BA list - a BA list can be anythign you make of it- but just in terms of "what makes the BA"

My suggestion is to actually embrace the new SM formations and even rules to an extent and work BA theme into that or vice versa. Our furiosos, or fragiosos, the DC, Sang Guard (if anyone plays them). A demi company + BA CAD (or BSF or FTSF), or throw in a storm wing. Like - we dont have bloodstrikes anymore. We dont have anything special about our ravens - so why should we feel one iota of concern for taking a Storm Wing formation and painting the Talons BA red?!

That fits PERFECTLY into our mythos and our play style. Why be hampered by GWs inability to think ahead and stubbornness to rectify that lack of foresight?

I rate for competitive play we should not be too averse to the idea of making fluffy, cool, BA cores or, BA add-ons to strong fluffy BA-themed, SM based lists.

My controversial heresy for the day

[Frater Antodeniel]

My suggestion is to actually embrace the new SM formations and even rules to an extent and work BA theme into that or vice versa. Our furiosos, or fragiosos, the DC, Sang Guard (if anyone plays them). A demi company + BA CAD (or BSF or FTSF), or throw in a storm wing. Like - we dont have bloodstrikes anymore. We dont have anything special about our ravens - so why should we feel one iota of concern for taking a Storm Wing formation and painting the Talons BA red?!

That fits PERFECTLY into our mythos and our play style. Why be hampered by GWs inability to think ahead and stubbornness to rectify that lack of foresight?

I rate for competitive play we should not be too averse to the idea of making fluffy, cool, BA cores or, BA add-ons to strong fluffy BA-themed, SM based lists.

My controversial heresy for the day

Morticon, i foresight that GW will give Blood Angels codex Unique Formations, alongside some of the Angels of Death Supplement.

When you think about it, the Stormlance Battle Demi-Company, for exemple, fit as much the White Scars as it fit the Blood Angels tactic.

Finally, about the next Blood Angels codex formations, we can be sure to found :

- 1 Strike Force Command Formation (With Command Squad and Sanguinary Guard)

- 1 Librarius Formation

- 1 Demi-Company Formation

- 1 Elite Terminator / Veteran / Furioso / Normal Dreanoughts Formation

- 1 Death Company Formation (Death company / DC Dreadnoughts / Chaplain)

- 1 Fast Attack Formation (That may includ Baal Predator)

- 1 Armoury Formation

[Omega-soul]

My suggestion is to actually embrace the new SM formations and even rules to an extent and work BA theme into that or vice versa. Our furiosos, or fragiosos, the DC, Sang Guard (if anyone plays them). A demi company + BA CAD (or BSF or FTSF), or throw in a storm wing. Like - we dont have bloodstrikes anymore. We dont have anything special about our ravens - so why should we feel one iota of concern for taking a Storm Wing formation and painting the Talons BA red?!

That fits PERFECTLY into our mythos and our play style. Why be hampered by GWs inability to think ahead and stubbornness to rectify that lack of foresight?

I rate for competitive play we should not be too averse to the idea of making fluffy, cool, BA cores or, BA add-ons to strong fluffy BA-themed, SM based lists.

My controversial heresy for the day

Morticon, i foresight that GW will give Blood Angels codex Unique Formations, alongside some of the Angels of Death Supplement.

When you think about it, the Stormlance Battle Demi-Company, for exemple, fit as much the White Scars as it fit the Blood Angels tactic.

Finally, about the next Blood Angels codex formations, we can be sure to found :

- 1 Strike Force Command Formation (With Command Squad and Sanguinary Guard)

- 1 Librarius Formation

- 1 Demi-Company Formation

- 1 Elite Terminator / Veteran / Furioso / Normal Dreanoughts Formation

- 1 Death Company Formation (Death company / DC Dreadnoughts / Chaplain)

- 1 Fast Attack Formation (That may includ Baal Predator)

- 1 Armoury Formation

The most rediculous thing is that we already have almost all this formations exept Librarius one)

So I wouldn't be that excited.

Our Ultimate (full-company) formations give ob-sec. bonuses +1 ini on charge and d6 less scatter.

The most bitter of that - we had it all in 5th ed without this *stupid* formations

[Charlo]

I will Echo what Mort said about not using formations.

As most of you know I played against Eldar last week, I used a simple BSF and he used a CAD.

Game was very even and bloody, I was heavily invested in Pods (5 in 1500) and while I did have some FW (Deredeo) so did he (Warphunter - D Blasts/ Flamer).

We played a standard mission (The Scouring) from the rule book and set everything up as it is classically supposed to be.

My opponent even said "Well I play Saim'han so taking a load of Guardians to get the formation isn't fun/ fluffy, they suck!", he also echoe'd this Sentiment about WK's except saying that they are indeed OP :P

 

Basically - in a straight up CAD battle we do pretty damn well, but when you throw in all the crazies we start to drop off...

[Indefragable]

My suggestion is to actually embrace the new SM formations and even rules to an extent and work BA theme into that or vice versa. Our furiosos, or fragiosos, the DC, Sang Guard (if anyone plays them). A demi company + BA CAD (or BSF or FTSF), or throw in a storm wing. Like - we dont have bloodstrikes anymore. We dont have anything special about our ravens - so why should we feel one iota of concern for taking a Storm Wing formation and painting the Talons BA red?!

That fits PERFECTLY into our mythos and our play style. Why be hampered by GWs inability to think ahead and stubbornness to rectify that lack of foresight?

I rate for competitive play we should not be too averse to the idea of making fluffy, cool, BA cores or, BA add-ons to strong fluffy BA-themed, SM based lists.

My controversial heresy for the day

Morticon, i foresight that GW will give Blood Angels codex Unique Formations, alongside some of the Angels of Death Supplement.

When you think about it, the Stormlance Battle Demi-Company, for exemple, fit as much the White Scars as it fit the Blood Angels tactic.

Finally, about the next Blood Angels codex formations, we can be sure to found :

- 1 Strike Force Command Formation (With Command Squad and Sanguinary Guard)

- 1 Librarius Formation

- 1 Demi-Company Formation

- 1 Elite Terminator / Veteran / Furioso / Normal Dreanoughts Formation

- 1 Death Company Formation (Death company / DC Dreadnoughts / Chaplain)

- 1 Fast Attack Formation (That may includ Baal Predator)

- 1 Armoury Formation

The most rediculous thing is that we already have almost all this formations exept Librarius one)

So I wouldn't be that excited.

Our Ultimate (full-company) formations give ob-sec. bonuses +1 ini on charge and d6 less scatter.

The most bitter of that - we had it all in 5th ed without this *stupid* formations

I think we should temper expectations, whenever GW does decide to throw us a bone.

The biggest problems inherit to the Formations we currently get, whether from the Codex or Shield of Baal: Exterminatus formations are

A) they are bloated. The Battle Company in the Codex requires, what, SIX Tactical squads? Angel's Fury Spearhead has a MASSIVE entry cost (1020pts). Compare that to the Ravenguard/Angels of Death supplement's Shadowstrike Kill Team which does pretty much the same thing.

B) benefits do not stack or stack in weird ways. Case in point, Dante's Avenging Host is the closest thing to a Decurion we have. However, only the Tactical Marines, ASM, and 1x unit of Death Company get +1I....leaving units like Sanguinary Guard inexplicably at I4. That would be fine if the SG's unit card gave them better stats (like I5 native).

In summation, I think previous Formations are a good indication of what we can expect. I just hope they rework them to be far more efficient and "better" (aka Decurion bonus is I5 in first round of combat, not just Charge, and Fleet).

Back on topic, however:

I do agree that BSF, ASF, and CAD are our best friends right now. Too many of our Formations are just too clunky and outdated already to present and edge over an opponent.

Likewise, though it pains me for the anti-fluff it represents, I feel that as of this moment in time, BA armies should* start the game with all models on the board. With almost every other Faction having Reserves shenanigans (or just Flyers for the +1/-1 to Reserves, including Pods), we simply can not afford to play that game (even though fluff-wise, that is OUR game). Concession to crunch.

[Dont-Be-Haten]

I concur that if you simply play CAD vs CAD we stand a brilliant chance.

 

But that's not what is sexy right now.

[ThatOneMarshal]

So with the new scout update it's pretty nice to have a cheap and effective minimum troops unit along with Cassor. That got me thinking, how would an army focused on getting as many jumpers as possible do? Maybe like 3-4 DC a furioso and some ASM and try to blitzkrieg the opponent backed up with some sicarians?

[Riot Earp]

I concur that if you simply play CAD vs CAD we stand a brilliant chance.

 

But that's not what is sexy right now.

 

I can confirm that. :)

[Charlo]

So with the new scout update it's pretty nice to have a cheap and effective minimum troops unit along with Cassor. That got me thinking, how would an army focused on getting as many jumpers as possible do? Maybe like 3-4 DC a furioso and some ASM and try to blitzkrieg the opponent backed up with some sicarians?

 

Pretty much our style right?

 

Check out Morticon's "Raod to Veteran's" thread, as he's just run a BA/ DA Jumper-centric list with some good success.

 

I think it can work, you just need to have a really well focused list.

 

Like Riot said, CAD to CAD (or BSF/ FTSF) we really can compete!

 

...But as soon as Formations come into it we're a little hamstrung.

[Indefragable]

So with the new scout update it's pretty nice to have a cheap and effective minimum troops unit along with Cassor. That got me thinking, how would an army focused on getting as many jumpers as possible do? Maybe like 3-4 DC a furioso and some ASM and try to blitzkrieg the opponent backed up with some sicarians?

Your comment about the "new" Scouts got me thinking.

 

I see potential: 

 

1) CQC Scouts were our "best" choice previously since (3x WS3 S5 AP- > 2x BS3 S4 AP5, IMO) and that doesn't necessarily change. WS4/BS4 is just icing to get a few more hits in. The biggest drawback for these guys continues to be the "cost" of CQC: if you Infiltrate, you have to weather T1 attacks from the enemy. If you come in from Reserves, you are getting into combat T3 at best. And to make them effective, you want to spend points: Camo cloaks if Infiltrating so they can maybe survive to T2.....Vet Sgt with a weapon, etc...)

2) The improvement with this for us is cheap OBSEC units that can camp where we want them to and actually add some weight to the fight:

2A) The biggest boon from this change IMO areBolter Scouts:  at 55pts you can put some light dakka out somewhat reliably. You can Infiltrate and Outflank them without losing their effectives Turn 1 or the Turn they come in from Reserves

2B) Sniper Scouts can spread the field pretty well but add just a bit more range and potentially punch., Against most units I think the extra Rapid Fire dakka from bolters is a bit better, but snipers can give you that 10% (not exact math) chance of taking out a Power Klaw before your DC Charge in

3) Missile Launcher with Flakk. 11x Melta bombs for Bolter Scouts + 5x  Melta bombs for ML/Flakk. Considering how weak out AA is right now, I think this might be a viable non-Allied, non-FW option. Have them camp on Obj while threatening MC's and Flyers. 

 

Now that I think out loud about it, perhaps a secondary CAD of 2x Bolter Scouts + a Sanguinary Priest or Librarian is the way to go to compliment your BSF/FTSF. That way your main army can go rip n' tear but you also have cheap, effective Obj holders hiding out. And who couldn't use another SP/Libby? 

 

CAD = 175pts

HQ:

Sanguinary Priest

 

TROOPS"

Scouts x 5

 

It increases your Troop-tax but is deceptively effective. Alternatively, you could swap out a Scout squad for Cassor the Damned for some backfield OBSEC Death Company dreadnoughtin'. 

 

Anyways, just some on-the-spot theoryhammer. 

[Rafen IX]

On the anti air side, scouts with cloaks and flak behind an aegis with quad gun? Two units so if one goes to ground the other uses the gun. Side note, I hate flyrants with a passion lol.

R

[Morticon]

Solid assessment from Indefragable, i think!

[Xenith]

1 CAD and 1 BSF is a good way to go, I think. Combat scouts and cassor in the BSF, sniper and bolter scouts, and tactical marines in the CAD to apply the most appropriate bonuses.

 

The character from the CAD can go with a BSF unit, but doesn't get red thirst, so. Can strike at I4 or be given an unwieldy weapon as needed.

 

Around 400pts gets you a CAD with character and 6 obsec 5 man scout squads to infiltrate onto objectives T1. your opponent then has to decide to remove them, or shoot your assault units.

[OPTIMVSCHRISTVS]

Just throwing this out there, but I'm currently in 2nd neck-and-neck with the 1st place guy in my local league...the other top 4 are playing War Convocation Ad Mech, Skyhammer, and Daemons and the players are fairly experienced...and with the exception of 1 game where I brought a dakka knight, I've only been running pure Blood Angels in a single Baal Strike Force.

 

Can we still compete? My vote is yes. We just have a much, much smaller margin of error in making our moves than our opponent.

[Damon Nightman]

1 CAD and 1 BSF is a good way to go, I think. Combat scouts and cassor in the BSF, sniper and bolter scouts, and tactical marines in the CAD to apply the most appropriate bonuses.

 

The character from the CAD can go with a BSF unit, but doesn't get red thirst, so. Can strike at I4 or be given an unwieldy weapon as needed.

 

Around 400pts gets you a CAD with character and 6 obsec 5 man scout squads to infiltrate onto objectives T1. your opponent then has to decide to remove them, or shoot your assault units.

Wow I never realized how many scout squads you could fit in a cad, well I knew the troop limit but never thought of trying to max it out...

 

6 units of scouts going after objectives sounds awesome and should cause the enemy to make some tough decisions!

 

I need to buy more scouts now lol

[Nicodemus Doloroso]

That's a very intriguing idea, infiltrating a bunch of scout units onto objectives and then letting your opponent make the hard decision of whether to shoot at them or the assaultey units. Probably more beneficial in maelstrom missions than others though, since while in Maelstrom you're scoring points every turn in certain other types of missions they could ignore the scouts and just kill them later once they've dealt with the "good stuff".

 

I'm interested to see how well or poorly I do in an upcoming tournament. While on the one hand it is rather high points and has no composition, it is designed to be a thematic/narrative event versus overly competitive. Might work out okay for my BA successors (I'm not using any other codices than BA).

[Father Mapple]

You could break the 6 scout units down into types too - assault scouts closest to the enemies, bolter scouts in the midfield, and sniper scouts in your own deployment zone. Or mix and match. That way you got the best scout for the job that is most likely. Most people don't tend to group up the objectives when placing them, but I try to since we are an assault force that can invade the enemy's deployment zone quick.

[CaptainHelion]

You can run 12 squads for around 700pts by maxing out the squads and then combat squadding. 60 t4 bodies just hanging around.

[Damon Nightman]

If I didn't hate the scout models, I'd totally be building up to this after i finish the other stuff I have.