Can Blood Angels still compete?

[The Unseen]

They will be if their in a rhino that moved 12", or that was shaken.

[CaptainHelion]

Oh right, of course. I must have missed that part. In that case they will most certainly be snap shooting!

[Morticon]

We have the South African nationals tournament coming up in a few months, and i was seriously tempted to take a BA army.  I made the best 1500 I could personally think of, but still realised that with WK spam, Tau riptide formations and the like, it just wasn't good enough. Ive already said it in this thread - I think if competitions were one CAD, no superheavies - we'd actually be competitive and able to handle our own, but otherwise...ya...not so much.  So, it really seems to be an issue of an outdated set of bonuses/formations.

Made this at my "go-to" 1500: 

Priest - jp, veritas, axe, auspex, bp

 

8x Vanvets - 2xshields, Maul, Fist, JP

1x Furioso - Fragcannon, HF

Pod
 

1x Cassor

Pod

2x 5Tacs - HF

2x Razors - las/plas
1x 5Tacs -MG

1x Razor - las/plas
 

1x 3Bikes + Attack Bike -MM, 2GG
1x Raven

But, otherwise...ya...such is the BA life...

[Charlo]

Were just lacking our "power unit" if you ask me.

 

Like you just said Mort, other factions have thier WK & Riptides. Marines have Grav (Centurions) and massed mobility and objective grabbing with transports. Even Wolves have Wulfen and TWC with which to build a strong core around.

 

In the arms race we are sorely lacking, the only thing coming close is Dante... But he is a LoW and requires an army built around him to justify his points. A built that is, pretty much a lack luster one with the current state of the game.

 

We aren't without weapons though, of course. Meltacide and the Frag Cannon are insanely efficient.

 

Im unsure what we could get that would be fluffy and poweful really. Though considering our background, probably a demi company, little bit of Grav access and some CC buffs could really make us shine.

 

I'd like to see the DC get a rule that means unwieldy weapons strike at I on the turn they charge. Wulfen basically get it with some weapons so why not us.

[Damon Nightman]

They basically took all the close to op ideas you could add to DC and gave it to the wulfen instead, when the SW already have ridiculous TWC...

 

Now we either need DC buffed in a different way, SG buffed in a different way or w brand new CC monster unit which o don't see happening imo. I'd love to get like the chaplain guard for Astorath. Think it was called erilum guard or something in some novel when astorath fights Seth?

 

They could have 2 wounds being chaplains and maybe even re-roll to hit and wound like old DC with any chaplain? This is probably more for the wishlisting thread I guess.,.

 

NTaW: do you have any advice on how you smash Demi companies?

[Charlo]

Baals are probably not a bad shout.

 

You could pretty much guarantee a Rhino death a turn with one of them.

 

Erelim are a cool idea, but I'm not sure how they would do them, there isn't much apparent they could bring to the table they couldn't be rolled into the DC or SG.

 

Though a unit of jump infantry with all Mauls and a 4+ invuln is a fun concept

[LutherMax]

We have the units for sure, hopefully we'll get some rules buffs and some formations in the next 'dex to bring us in line and we'll be golden (and red and black).

[NTaW]

NTaW: do you have any advice on how you smash Demi companies?

 

I have always played aggressively against armour, and keep playing that way today. Every unit I field has the ability to either shoot and and explode a tank or charge and get it done all the same. A lot of the people I face tend to min/max their army to bits and gribbles when playing a battle company so that they can take auxiliary choices instead of bulking up their company marines so their only real threat to me is being objective grabbers...except my army is faster. I haven't faced a White Scars army with Scout and I don't often play with objective cards 'cuz not everyone has them and we'll be damned if we try and do them out of the book. Ultimately I play thinking more about what my opponent is trying to do than what I'm doing in that I try to disrupt more than charge straight in. This often means slow movements with jump troops (DC, Assault marines, SG) to set up a later game charge unless they infiltrate or rush forward. Then I get pretty little units to annihilate as I cross the table to reinforce my drop pods.

[Morticon]

NTaW: do you have any advice on how you smash Demi companies?

 

Very difficult, but you need MSU to fight it.  Issue is that at 1500, its very, very tough and you're fighting their game.

 

Also, FW is really needed.  If you can, a fire raptor is brilliant.  You can nail 2 fiveman squads a turn with it.  If you have a scorpios, you can nail another one a turn. 

MM attack bikes are brilliant too.  2x2 - 110 points each.  

 

But solid units like las/plas razor + special (165points) and then the above mentioned MM attack bikes.  For 40odd points more, you can do 3xbikes, 2grav+mm attack. bike - Also an exceptional unit

 

very difficult to beat them at their own game, so you need units that can have more damage output per turn than theirs.  

Can also try to maximise meltacide squads and put launchers on the pods to get the troops inside. 

 

135 for 2xmg, 1ip and a launcher on the pod - thats a good deal.  

 

 

With FW (at 1500):

 

Chappy- veritas

 

1x Furioso -hf, frag

1x Pod

 

3x 5Tac - hf or mg

3x las/plas razor

 

2x 5 ASM - 2mg, IP

2x Pods - launchers

1x 2 Attack bikes- mm

 

1x Fire Raptor

1x Sicaran (or scorpios)

 

thats what i would try with.

[Charlo]

The greatest thing is that is ALMOST a Demi company right there. Minus the FW of course, so lots of options to bring it in the future when we do get an update.

 

If by some miracle we get assault rhinos (I'm praying) I might even wager we'll have one of the tightest Demi's around.

[appiah4]

I'd actually rather see the wolves and eldar nerfed than us buffed.  The power creep has reached ridiculous levels, we are not far from D Strength hand weapons.  The whole balance needs a nuke in the face and a rewrite from scratch if you ask me, a-la 3rd Edition.

[Charlo]

I'd actually rather see the wolves and eldar nerfed than us buffed. The power creep has reached ridiculous levels, we are not far from D Strength hand weapons. The whole balance needs a nuke in the face and a rewrite from scratch if you ask me, a-la 3rd Edition.

That ain't happening.

 

The current state of the game is fine, for the most part.

 

I'd much rather be given more fun toys to compete, than have everyone lose thier toys and we go back 3 editions.

[appiah4]

 

I'd actually rather see the wolves and eldar nerfed than us buffed. The power creep has reached ridiculous levels, we are not far from D Strength hand weapons. The whole balance needs a nuke in the face and a rewrite from scratch if you ask me, a-la 3rd Edition.

That ain't happening.

 

The current state of the game is fine, for the most part.

 

I'd much rather be given more fun toys to compete, than have everyone lose thier toys and we go back 3 editions.

 

 

Balancing things out at a lower power level would not necesserily require taking away anybody's toys; Wulfen that are not outrageously OP will still be Wulfen, for example.  But ok, I guess.

[Charlo]

Eldar are the main offenders, but in reality it's only because some of their formations are just stupid and the WK is grossly under-costed AND regarding the last thing we don't have a reliable way to take one down outside of some Combi-Grav Stermguard or some Grav Bikes (and even then...)

 

In a CAD (or single detachment equivalent) though, with no LoW I found Eldar a powerful, but fair opponent. I was decimating them as much as they were me and I had some awful deployment options.

 

But really that is just more evidence for what we know - we do rather well in an even fight.

[Jolemai]

If we change the question parameters to "can we compete in the ETL?", then the answer is a resounding yes.

[Charlo]

If we change the question parameters to "can we compete in the ETL?", then the answer is a resounding yes.

 

We seem to be smashing it!

 

Planet align i'll get some progress myself finally too ;)

 

Then we'll be about 4k ahead of the codex.

[BloodTzar]

So what would be the optimal 1850 BA list that could compete with FW units :) ?

[Jolemai]

So what would be the optimal 1850 BA list that could compete with FW units ?

Pretty much a standard Morticon list. Think a Chaplain, bunch of MSU Tacticals in Razors, Fireraptor (quad heavy bolters), Sicaran (Schism of Mars Legacy), Whirlwind Scorpius and possibly some grav-bikes. That said, this is intriguing (yes I know it has a Knight but there's an interesting blend of BA and FW within).

[Charlo]

I'm a massive fan of the Deredeo - it adds the perfect amount of Anti-Air/ Medium AV that our lists sometimes lack a little.

 

It's pretty much guaranteed to total anything AV12 and 3HP or less a turn (4 twin linked BS5 S8 AP4 re-rolling armour pen shots from the Anvilus Autocannon battery) as well as harass a different infantry unit with it's missiles that can shoot a different target with 3 S6 AP3 missiles a turn that don't need line of sight.

 

The only real shame of it is that the chest weapons (Twin-linked Heavy Bolters or Flamers) need need to shoot the same thing as the Autocannons, which if they have a good target, probably wont be able to hurt. So heavy flamers may be the way to go to help soften back line attackers.

 

Hell, it's even good against AV13/14 as you get so many re-rolls that you can just chip HP off.

[Indefragable]

BA Experiment. 1847pts

 

Detachment One:

 

Fleshtearers Strike Force 1392pts

HQ:

Astorath the Grim

 

TROOPS:

Cassor the Damned

 

ELITES:

Death Company x 14

--Jump Packs

--Power Fist x 3

--Bolter x 3

 

FAST ATTACK:

Assault Marine x 5

--Melta gun x 2

--Sgt Bolt Pistol x 2

--Sgt Melta Bomb

Rhino

--Dozer Blade

 

Assault Marine x 5

--Melta gun x 2

--Sgt Bolt Pistol x 2

--Sgt Melta Bomb

Rhino

--Dozer Blade

 

Assault Marine x 5

--Melta gun x 2

--Sgt Bolt Pistol x 2

--Sgt Melta Bomb

Rhino

--Dozer Blade

 

Assault Marine x 5

--Melta gun x 2

--Sgt Bolt Pistol x 2

--Sgt Melta Bomb

Rhino

--Dozer Blade

 

Assault Marine x 5

--Melta gun x 2

--Sgt Bolt Pistol x 2

--Sgt Melta Bomb

Rhino

--Dozer Blade

 

Assault Marine x 5

--Melta gun x 2

--Sgt Bolt Pistol x 2

--Sgt Melta Bomb

Rhino

--Dozer Blade

 

Detachment Two:

 

Combined Arms Detachment 455pts

HQ:

Librarian

--Jump Pack

--Gallian's Staff

 

TROOPS:
Scouts x 5

--Camo Cloaks

--Bolters x 5

 

Scouts x 5

--Camo Cloaks

--Bolters x 5

 

Scouts x 5

--Camo Cloaks

--Sniper Rifle x 5

 

Scouts x 5

--Camo Cloaks

--Sniper Rifle x 5

 

Scouts x 5

--Camo Cloaks

--CQC/Bolt Pistol x 5

--Sgt. Melta Bomb

 

++++++

 

 

The above is an experiment trying to realistically maximize what advantages we have left

 

Pros:

-5x OBSEC Infiltrators/Outflankers in the Scouts

-12x units for about as cheap as you can get with the Assault Marines with Free Rhinos

-Big Scary Death Star unit that will mulch just about anything it can get a Charge at (Death Company bomb with Astorath). Invisibility would make it disgusting, but +1A or 5++ with the Sanguinary Tree ain't bad. If nothing else, it should draw lots of fire that can help the rest of your army dogpile things

-forgoes realistic Detachment bonuses for OBSEC Infiltrators (CAD) and 300pts of free Fast transports (FTSF)

-weakness = strength. The bulk of the list is weak, cheap units that aren't worth the effort of the battery pack in the Grav gun. If fighting something like Grav Centurions in Drop Pods, you know where they are going to strike so you control where they land (Hint: it's near Cassor or your DC bomb)

 

Cons:

-would like some invulns on the DC bomb (like Dante) 

-Cassor doesn't quite fit and will stick out as the only AV12 on the board (and a footslogging CQC Dread at that). Keep him in the back as a counter-Drop Pod threat? 

-Strengths = weaknesses. Lots of units, but they are fairly weak on their own. A half-decent unit may even be able to multi-charge a few of them

 

Easy places to shave points/flavor to taste:

-Gallian's Staff (10)

-Camo Cloaks on Scouts (10/unit)

-size/makeup of DC bomb

-Astorath vs regular Chaplain (depends on how threatening you want it to be)

-bulk pack of Melta bombs

 

X-factors:

-who the eff has 6x Rhinos and 5x Scouts Squads? 

[Calistarius]

 

*snipped*

 

X-factors:

-who the eff has 6x Rhinos and 5x Scouts Squads? 

 

 

Man...I ask this to myself just about every I read some of these proposed lists.  It seems like some of our brothers have several hundred models, and basically all types to choose from when list building.

[Morticon]

 

 

*snipped*

 

X-factors:

-who the eff has 6x Rhinos and 5x Scouts Squads? 

 

 

Man...I ask this to myself just about every I read some of these proposed lists.  It seems like some of our brothers have several hundred models, and basically all types to choose from when list building.

 

Hahha- oh man ><; this made me laugh. 

 

Truth be told, i've been collecting BA since 1999, so, i dont feel toooo bad.

Only got 3 or 4 scout squads ><; Rhinos/Razors though......

 

http://i1206.photobucket.com/albums/bb447/Brindleysa/Veterans%202016/IMG_20160701_231549_zpsyu2oi8oy.jpg

 

That was just the veteran's 2500 list.  Probs got another 4 somewhere ><; Not half as big as some of the collections i've seen on here. 

[Charlo]

I mean, I have 7 drop pods. So that many Rhinos is plausible...

[CaptainHelion]

I have easily that many if I commandeer my Adepta Sororitas fleet

[Xenith]

Haha, been playing BA since 1999 also. I'm only just getting into tanks, but I do have 40+ scouts...