The Dark Angels Endgame

[DarKnight]

This is just a mental exercise for you guys, when the last Unforgiven is found and the stain of betrayal is erased from the First, what happens next? Cypher come back? The Lion awakens? They self report to the Terran Lords but let them know "we handled it." What do you guys think

[aura_enchanted]

This is just a mental exercise for you guys, when the last Unforgiven is found and the stain of betrayal is erased from the First, what happens next? Cypher come back? The Lion awakens? They self report to the Terran Lords but let them know "we handled it." What do you guys think

cypher returns to the fold to lead as chapter master and they sell themselves dearly at the coming battle of cadia

[DeadZone]

The brave leaders of the Unforgiven will kick back in their recliners, and take a well deserved nap.

[BlackTriton]

There is no end game; there is only war what needs to be done.

I think the Lion will wake up first and tell his sons that the chase is over. That the hatred and angers that had secretly fuelled them for millennia is the same that secretly fuelled the Primarch so long ago. (Only Leman Russ known of this, and he forgave him, as the emperor will forgive the dark angels).

Thus the First legion will be once more, the secrets will be buried along their shame in the dust of the past. Their anger and hatred repurposed to a greater end, for the reconstruction of the empire as it was envision by the emperor.

[JeffJedi]

Personal Guard of Emperor Lion El'Jonson.

[Bryan Blaire]

The Hunt is important to the Dark Angels, just as it was to the Lion. It will never end, it will merely shift targets.

 

Look at DA history:

-the Order under the Lion hunts all the Beasts down

-the Lion starts working in the Crusade, and seems to hunt for victory and being the best

-the Lion hunts down Tzeenchy demons on his ship

-the Lion hunts the Night Lords/Curze (exactly as Chaos had foreseen his nature would cause him to do)

-the Lion hunts down Luther on Caliban

-the Dark Angels create the Inner Circle with the sole purpose to conceal knowledge and guide the Hunt

 

Yes, it is probably oversimplification, but hunting is part of the DA persona, it isn't going to go away just because all Fallen are captured (if that even happens before the axe of Karma-ggedon might fall down on the DA).

[Void Knight]

Wouldn't Cypher have to die for the Hunt for the Unforgiven to be complete?  While we don't know who Cypher is, we do know that he was one of the Dark Angels that turned traitor on Caliban.

[Chaplain Lucifer]

I think if the Fallen are all captured the Unforgiven will embark on a great Crusade of their own. They're the best hunters in the Imperium and with the might of a Legion they will want to finish a 10000 year old job their father started

[Pigshead]

The lion wakes up, it was all a dream. He's still a child on caliban, a perfectly normal child. The emperor, the imperium, none of it ever existed or ever will. Peace reigns in the galaxy.

 

The lions dream haunts him all his life, he creates a series of stories based on his dream, writes them down, then a great cataclysm destroys nearly all life on caliban, humanity is all but extinct.

 

Thousands of years later, humanity has rebuilt it's civilisation, caliban is now known as Earth. A group of odd bearded men discover the lions ancient texts and use them as a basis to create a tabletop war game known as warhammer 40,000.

 

Which brings us to the present day...

[Gillyfish]

Well they probably will never finish the hunt. There are so many Fallen and their capture so rare that it is a task of Sisyphean proportions.

 

But assuming they did, I think that the traitor legions would be next on their hit list as some of them would know of the Fallen's existence. f they've managed to keep the hunt a secret and completed it I imagine they would then want to tidy up al knowledge and evidence of their dark secret.

[FerociousBeast]

Just as the Lion needed to hunt the beasts of Caliban to prove to himself that he himself was not one of them, the Dark Angels need the Fallen to prove their loyalty to the Emperor.

 

An idea I have explored before: Fear and the Fearless

[Phoebus]

I think it's worth taking into consideration the timeline that defines the setting. It's the year 999.M41; Abaddon the Despoiler and his hordes are pouring out of the Eye of Terror and that the collapse of the Golden Throne is, supposedly, more or less imminent.

 

I know a lot of that qualifies as the most foul sort of Heresy, but let's entertain it for the sake of argument.
 

Assuming the Unforgiven captured or destroyed all the remaining Fallen during the Thirteenth Black Crusade or its immediate aftermath, I don't believe that the Inner Circle would ever reveal its secrets to outsiders. Even if the Imperium were not facing impending annihilation, I doubt the victory of the Unforgiven would somehow make it more tolerant of lies and secrecy, or less paranoid/prone to destroying anything inconvenient. The Inner Circle would take their secrets with them to their graves.

 

The Lion's return never necessarily struck me as being contingent on all the Fallen being captured or destroyed. I've always interpreted his state as one wherein "He's sleeping until he's truly needed" themes. The question is, what unlocks his sleep? Is it the Watchers in the Dark? Or is it something else altogether? My personal theory is that the key to awakening the Lion is Cypher. The "canon" is always subject to change, of course, but the older material happily hinted that Cypher was making his way to Terra. Originally, I believed that he wasn't going there so much to reveal all before the Emperor as much as he sought to beseech him to awaken the Lion.

 

Let's assume the Lion does awaken. The Imperium would certainly benefit from a primarch of indisputable genius leading the tens of thousands of Unforgiven in concerted action. Would it be enough to turn the tide? I don't know. I don't think so. The Talon of Horus indicates that such is the power of Abaddon and his followers, and such is the favor of the Ruinous Powers that they enjoy, that the Daemon Primarchs themselves have bowed before them. Thus, unless other loyalist primarchs somehow returned, the Lion would have to contend with six (possibly seven) traitor primarchs and the Warmaster of Chaos.

 

Since reading The Unforgiven, however, a more sinister theory has started bouncing around my brain.

 

WARNING, THE FOLLOWING THEORY INVOLVES SPOILERS.

 

I always found Cypher to possess an interesting dichotomy of character. Cypher has been shown to be involved with very nefarious individuals and groups, and has been linked to horrific activities. On the other hand, he has also been shown actively fighting traitors and helping the Unforgiven and other Imperial forces against the Ruinous Powers. I've never been able to resolve this aspect of Cypher. Even taking into account a "working for the greater good" argument, Cypher has broken a lot of eggs to make his proverbial omelet.

 

One of the greatest revelations of The Unforgiven, however, is that Cypher entered a gateway leading to Caliban - ten thousand years in the past, right as the Lion and his Dark Angels were taking the fight to Luther. That got me thinking: what if Cypher isn't one Fallen... but two?

 

Stay with me for a minute.

 

The Lion returns to Caliban and takes the war to Luther. During the climactic battle, a warp rift engineered by powers that defy the logic of space and time as understood by mortals destroys the planet itself and scatters the treacherous Lutherites across, well, space and time. Several decades after the Second Founding, Cypher arrives at the Rock for the first time and reveals to the officers of the Dark Angels the existence of the Fallen. Over the next ten thousand years or so, Cypher alternately aids or hinders the Unforgiven until, right before the Thirteenth Black Crusade, he flies a Thunderhawk through the very warp rift that leads back to Caliban right as it's about to be destroyed.

 

What if Cypher returned to Caliban only to be defeated and replaced by another who took his identity? Going by that logic, the original Cypher had spent 10,000 years trying to covertly help the Unforgiven while also trying to redeem the Fallen (hence him granting "And They Shall Know No Fear" to Chaos Space Marines representing Fallen Dark Angels). The second Cypher, however, followed a sinister agenda for 10,000 years - supporting various groups of traitors and heretics, to include sponsoring Astelan, Anovel, etc. In effect, those two Cyphers have co-existed for ten thousand years. This would explain why (to name one example) Cypher was terrified about Astelan's plot... but didn't know enough about it to thwart him to begin with. Loyal Cypher would almost certainly be aware of the existence of Traitor Cypher, but has never revealed this truth to the Inner Circle because he guesses they'd never believe him.

 

Tragically, Loyal Cypher is probably destined to go through the Warp Rift, which effectively means he can't directly affect anything beyond 999.M41. Meanwhile, Traitor Cypher is probably free to act as he chooses during the Thirteenth Black Crusade and beyond.

 

So... if this theory is true, does that mean Traitor Cypher is traveling to Terra to slay the Emperor with the Lion Sword as opposed to present it to him in a quest for absolution?

[march10k]

Pretty much what Inigo Montoya does at the successful conclusion of his lifelong quest to avenge his father!  Azrael would make an excellend Dread Pirate Roberts...

[SvenONE]

It's hard to imagine a scenario where the Dark Angels would wilfully disclose to the Highlords that 'oh by the way, we had a bit of an issue a few millenia ago'.  With the brutal justice of the 41st millennium, I'm assuming that most arms of the Terran forces would seek to execute swift punishment against the First Legion.

 

I think part of carrying the burden of hunting the Fallen is that it's a thankless job.  The Dark Angels don't really seek glory so saying they've hunted down the last Fallen would bring much positive in my eyes.

 

I honestly think that the Unforgiven have no plan to end their war against Chaos.  They'll just turn their focus from hunting Fallen to putting a concerted effort towards fighting Chaos as a whole (not that they shirk that responsibility).

 

WAKE UP LION.  ENOUGH'S ENOUGH.

[Volt]

It's hard to imagine a scenario where the Dark Angels would wilfully disclose to the Highlords that 'oh by the way, we had a bit of an issue a few millenia ago'.  With the brutal justice of the 41st millennium, I'm assuming that most arms of the Terran forces would seek to execute swift punishment against the First Legion.

 

I think part of carrying the burden of hunting the Fallen is that it's a thankless job.  The Dark Angels don't really seek glory so saying they've hunted down the last Fallen would bring much positive in my eyes.

 

I honestly think that the Unforgiven have no plan to end their war against Chaos.  They'll just turn their focus from hunting Fallen to putting a concerted effort towards fighting Chaos as a whole (not that they shirk that responsibility).

 

WAKE UP LION.  ENOUGH'S ENOUGH.

Considering the Grey Knights and likely other parts of the Inquisition have full knowledge of the Dark Angel's "secret", I doubt the High Lords don't already know. If anything keeping with the joke of the Rock being a gay bar in Nottingham and the Dark Angels innuendo~

 

*fabulously dressed man looking like a cross between David Bowie and Freddy Mercury walks into living room*

 

"Mom, Dad: I'm gay."

 

"...We know son. We've known for years."

 

If anything the Dark Angels unwittingly fill a role of cleaning shop for the Imperium. Mopping up chaos cults constantly the fallen leave behind wherever they go. Plus unlike memes spouted on the internet, the blue-on-blue situations with the First are pretty minimal.

[FerociousBeast]

I think people--fans and writers both--have been distracted by and misinterpreting the "secret" over the years. Over the years it's been explained as this dreadful thing that would certainly result in the Imperium attacking the DAs if it were known, but that's just not a reasonable conclusion. It's not consistent with other chapters that have had traitors. Remember that the Grey Knights are notable in that none of them have ever fallen. Remember the Corsairs, a renegade force made of traitor loyalists. Remember the Space Wolves who had entire Great Companies turn renegade.

 

To me, the reason the secret is kept is better explained by the shame they feel and the fear that they also could become Fallen.

[Gillyfish]

You may well be right, FB. Origially the secret would certainly have brought destruction on the DA and their successors, but the same would have been true of the Blood Angels and the Space Wolves (amongst others). If memory serves, I think I read something which stated that if not for the need for one of those Chapters and their glorious record, that fate would have befallen them.

 

Things do appear to have changed and the 'secrets' do appear to be quite well known now (which doesn't quite fit for me, but oh well). That said, I would prefer to think that the DA's secret would still invite destruction precisely because they have kept it a secret for all that time; they cannot be trusted - who knows what else they may be hiding?

[marvmoogy]

A two-pronged attack here...

 

1) The Dark Angels capture / kill / burn / maim all of the traitor DAs from way back when.  All of the Dark Angels celebrate and it is good.

 

All the traitors except....

 

2) Cyper.  Who completes his mission to return the Lion Sword to the Emperor who, in a gigantic effort of psychic might and mastery, reforges the sword and gives Cypher his forgiveness and blessing.

 

Then...

 

Cypher crashes the party at the Rock, brings his own bottle along with the Lion Sword....which awakens the Lion himself and they all drink, are merry, wake up when gen-enhanced hangovers and all is well in the Galaxy.

[Phoebus]

I think people--fans and writers both--have been distracted by and misinterpreting the "secret" over the years. Over the years it's been explained as this dreadful thing that would certainly result in the Imperium attacking the DAs if it were known, but that's just not a reasonable conclusion. It's not consistent with other chapters that have had traitors. Remember that the Grey Knights are notable in that none of them have ever fallen. Remember the Corsairs, a renegade force made of traitor loyalists. 

Sure, but that's our imperfect, incomplete perspective on the matter. Azrael sure feels like his Chapter - the whole of the Unforgiven, really - would be hunted down. One thing to note, however, is that his opinion relates to not just what happened ten thousand years ago... but the crimes the Dark Angels have committed over the past ten thousand years while carrying out the Hunt.

 

Personally, I think it boils down to this:

 

1. Either the Dark Angels acted illogically in deciding to keep secret the truth of Luther, Caliban's destruction, and, later, the Hunt itself; ...

2. ... or they had a genuine reason to believe that knowledge of these things would constitute a very real danger to their continued existence.

 

If it were a case of #1, I feel as if the gravitas of the Hunt would be undermined.

 

Remember the Space Wolves who had entire Great Companies turn renegade.

Sure. At the end of the day, though, the loyalty of the legion as a whole was never called into question. More importantly, the Space Wolves had Leman Russ on hand in the days following the Horus Heresy. The Dark Angels didn't find out about the Fallen until decades after the Second Founding.

 

To me, the reason the secret is kept is better explained by the shame they feel and the fear that they also could become Fallen.

To each their own. I personally don't have a problem with the "stain on their honour/fear that knowledge of the sins committed in the name of the Hunt would lead to the Unforgiven's destruction" theme.

[FerociousBeast]

I go with:

 

3. A writer or two over the intervening years since 2nd edition decided to raise the stakes a bit and stated that knowledge of the fall would surely cause the Imperium to destroy the Dark Angels, and since then it's become "a thing."

 

I don't think this makes sense logically, as stated. And thematically I dislike it because it has turned keeping the secret into a cowardly act of self preservation. I would much prefer this tragic flaw to proceed from a heroic impulse. Loyalty (fear of betrayal) and honor (shame of past actions). To throw self preservation into the pot seriously weakens the coffee.

[Bryan Blaire]

It seems to me from all the texts that the "secret" of the Dark Angels/Unforgiven is much beyond the simple Fallen issue. Anyone believing that only the existence of the Fallen matters are missing the wider story. I also think the shame is a huge motivator for the Unforgiven, and it extends to more than just the Fallen. The wider audience seems to believe that the Unforgiven like abandoning allies, etc., and I think just the opposite is true, and yet they feel a compulsion due to their stained honor and must due to regardless of their feelings about their actions (which would likely simply exacerbate the shame).

[Komplot]

I think that the secret part is exacerbated because it's the running theme for the chapter, like space wolves are wolf Vikings.

snip "The wider audience seems to believe that the Unforgiven like abandoning allies" snip

You will find that there is a difference between what you said and what happened to the Ophidium Gulf. I understand compulsion to atone but then there is taking it to an extreme. 

[Phoebus]

I go with:

 

3. A writer or two over the intervening years since 2nd edition decided to raise the stakes a bit and stated that knowledge of the fall would surely cause the Imperium to destroy the Dark Angels, and since then it's become "a thing."

That's a given. I think it's more accurate to say, however, that #3 is informed by either #1 or #2.

 

I don't think this makes sense logically, as stated. And thematically I dislike it because it has turned keeping the secret into a cowardly act of self preservation. I would much prefer this tragic flaw to proceed from a heroic impulse. Loyalty (fear of betrayal) and honor (shame of past actions). To throw self preservation into the pot seriously weakens the coffee.

I think it's both, honestly, but even then I'm not comfortable labeling it as self preservation as we would think of it. I think it's something closer to, "Can the Imperium, paranoid and self-destructive as it is, afford to destroy tens of thousands of its finest warriors?"

 

EDIT:  evidence of the above can be seen in The Unforgiven.

 

Sapphon, for instance, clearly is not worried just about the Unforgiven:

 

“Sapphon met his Chapter Master’s inquiring look with a regretful one.

‘Yes,’ he said. ‘How many millions more will die in the centuries to come if the Dark Angels do not survive to protect them? How many billions if, as Cypher claims, the Unforgiven will be destroyed in their totality? Not by aliens, or heretics or mutants. By the Imperium. By our fellow Space Marines. Civil war, Lord Azrael. On a scale we cannot imagine.”

Excerpt From: Gav Thorpe. “The Unforgiven.” iBooks.

And then, we have Azrael's take:

 

“One moment more.’ Azrael clenched his fists on the tabletop. ‘I will not jeopardise the future of the Imperium to save this Chapter. We must hold higher regard for mankind. My instinct tells me that our enemies are seeking some means to reveal the nature of our history to opposing forces within the Imperium. If we fail here, if the true legacy of Caliban is made known, we must accept the judgement of our peers and allies.’

‘You would allow the Dark Angels to be executed?’

‘Not just the Dark Angels, all of the Unforgiven.”

Excerpt From: Gav Thorpe. “The Unforgiven.” iBooks.

For me, this is one of the most powerful moments of Dark Angels literature. I love this in combination with Azrael's humble opinion of himself earlier in the novel. He acknowledges the dishonour that is inherent in conducting the Hunt. He doesn't allow the heroics deeds he and his brethren have committed in defense of the Imperium to absolve them from their sins.

 

His viewpoint isn't unique, either. Sammael, as well, voices similar sentiments. 

 

I think that the secret part is exacerbated because it's the running theme for the chapter, like space wolves are wolf Vikings.

snip "The wider audience seems to believe that the Unforgiven like abandoning allies" snip

You will find that there is a difference between what you said and what happened to the Ophidium Gulf. I understand compulsion to atone but then there is taking it to an extreme. 

What part of the Ophidium Gulf incident leads you to believe the Dark Angels liked what they're implied to have done?