TLLC Razorbacks for anti air/armor?

[appiah4]

Has anyone tried using 3+ TLLC razorbacks anti air? I have a strange idea.. buy multiple of these for assaults abd devastators, then put the assaults in fa drop pods instead. Cheap fast tllc.. thoughts?

[The Unseen]

I mean their better than most other weapons, but not by much. They might get a plane to jink if your opponent errs on the side of caution, which is really all you need to do for the turn, but there are better options. Assault Cannons would do better if you wanted anti-air options in a pinch.

[Xenith]

I agree with unseen that assault cannons would probably be better for this. More shots, more chance of a hit. 

[appiah4]

I mean their better than most other weapons, but not by much. They might get a plane to jink if your opponent errs on the side of caution, which is really all you need to do for the turn, but there are better options. Assault Cannons would do better if you wanted anti-air options in a pinch.

 

24" vs 48" for anti air is no competition imo..

 

I agree with unseen that assault cannons would probably be better for this. More shots, more chance of a hit. 

 

You are assuming you will be in range.  the 48" on the lascannon will allow it to comfortably position itself out of harm's way and blast away, thereby not expose its paper thin hide to things that even puny Boltguns can dent.

[Jolemai]

Range aside, a TLAC has been mathhammered to be better than the TLLC at popping armour. On a Stormraven this is a decent choice as most of the time you are moving into range of the enemy. On a stationary platform, many Flyers can stay out of assault cannon range so I can understand the desire to use the TLLC (there's also getting the model WYSIWYG, which is either a conversion, FW or third party bits which not everyone has easy access to).

 

By taking multiples, it can work. Maybe with a hunter-killer missile too? Of course, whilst all your Laserbacks are doing this, who's shooting the rest of the encroaching army?

 

One other interesting tidbit can be found in the Legacy of Glory list found in Imperial Armour volume 2 Second Edition. The Battle of Sarosh upgrade placed on one Laserback will do the following:

 

 

Battle of Sarosh

• Vehicle or Super Heavy Vehicle eligible
• Once per game, declared before To Hit rolls are made, one of the vehicles weapons gains Skyfire, Interceptor, Night Vision and Tank Hunter

 

Just keep this tank safe as it will become a priority target!

[Charlo]

Sarosh is a go too on my Las Predator.

 

Oh your big scary flyer just came on? VHOOOOSH EAT LASCANNONS HELL TURKEY.

 

Knowing my luck it'll still fail to pen though.

[evildrcheese]

I think the range of the assault cannon is a non-issue. You can move 12" and fire at full bs, giving you an effective range of 36". You'll also have T1 to get into a midfield position before the flyers even enter play. TLAC all the way.

 

EDC

[Spagunk]

Pardon my ignorance but how does one get full BS skill with TLACs on flyers from a razorback?

[evildrcheese]

You can't, I'm not thinking straight. Full bs against other targets but still snapshooting vs fliers, my point is you can move 12" and still shoot.

 

Apologies.

 

EDC

[Paikis]

Why not a las-plas Razorback? These things are one of the best pieces of kit we have access to. For a few points more (OK, OK, it's double), you can have a tri-las Predator Annihilator. If both of these options can be given the Skyfire upgrade that Jolemai was talking about, they're even better!

[appiah4]

Why not a las-plas Razorback? These things are one of the best pieces of kit we have access to. For a few points more (OK, OK, it's double), you can have a tri-las Predator Annihilator. If both of these options can be given the Skyfire upgrade that Jolemai was talking about, they're even better!

Because the reroll of the tllc makes your s9 shot doubly accurate against fliers, effectively making you BS2. If you have three of these and shoot them all at a flier it will reliably die. That is priceless. Besides I can get mobile plasma on anything but fast tllc is a rarity.

[evildrcheese]

Just though, if you want to get really crazy you can get the command rhino /land raider and then give out Skyfire to something like a tri-laz Pred. Totally points inefficient but hey!

 

EDC

[Charlo]

I wouldn't say inefficient, depends on your list. If you aren't bringing a hitty HQ, have a lot of armour and a few good shooting and cc units to use the advantages it could work nicely.

[appiah4]

I really want to build such a list but the cost of three razorbacks abd the toeture of building three drop pods is holding me back..

[Nicodemus Doloroso]

Range aside, a TLAC has been mathhammered to be better than the TLLC at popping armour. On a Stormraven this is a decent choice as most of the time you are moving into range of the enemy. On a stationary platform, many Flyers can stay out of assault cannon range so I can understand the desire to use the TLLC (there's also getting the model WYSIWYG, which is either a conversion, FW or third party bits which not everyone has easy access to).

 

 

Perhaps I misunderstood your post, but doesn't the current Razorback kit include options for twin-linked heavy bolters and twin-linked lascannon? So there would be no Forgeworld or converting involved to make TLLC Razors ...

[Jolemai]

 

Range aside, a TLAC has been mathhammered to be better than the TLLC at popping armour. On a Stormraven this is a decent choice as most of the time you are moving into range of the enemy. On a stationary platform, many Flyers can stay out of assault cannon range so I can understand the desire to use the TLLC (there's also getting the model WYSIWYG, which is either a conversion, FW or third party bits which not everyone has easy access to).

 

 

Perhaps I misunderstood your post, but doesn't the current Razorback kit include options for twin-linked heavy bolters and twin-linked lascannon? So there would be no Forgeworld or converting involved to make TLLC Razors ...

 

 

I'm referring to the TLAC option. Sorry for any confusion!

[Emprah2508]

Sorry to change the subject but what about twin linked heavy bolters because as jolemai said twin linked assault cannons are a bit of a pain to get hold of.

[CaptainHelion]

Heavy Bolters are okay. TL makes them more okay, but not significantly. 3 shots at S5 isn't too bad, if you're not expecting to face up against AV12. But even for an extra 20pts, the Assault Cannon is just better in literally every way. Higher strength, an extra shot, and rending just blows Heavy Bolters out of the water. The main reason to run Heavy Bolters is because you can't fit the 20pts for the Lascannon (Either TL or with the Plasmagun) or the Assault Cannon. In that role, they can definitely provide a decent amount of extra fire support for not a lot.

[appiah4]

TLHB is a fair free solution to a problem we dont have. The 20pt TLLC is a great cheap solution to a problem we do have. The 20pt TLAC is a good cheap solution to several problems most of which we dont have. Make if that what you will..

[evildrcheese]

Besides what blood angels doesn't love assault cannons?

 

EDC

 

Edit for double post phone stupidity.

[Emprah2508]

Thanks guys. I was looking at getting the reclusium command set and I already have a TLAC razorback(conversion) so if I do get the set the TLLC will probably be the one I choose.

[Emicus]

 

Why not a las-plas Razorback? These things are one of the best pieces of kit we have access to. For a few points more (OK, OK, it's double), you can have a tri-las Predator Annihilator. If both of these options can be given the Skyfire upgrade that Jolemai was talking about, they're even better!

Because the reroll of the tllc makes your s9 shot doubly accurate against fliers, effectively making you BS2. If you have three of these and shoot them all at a flier it will reliably die. That is priceless. Besides I can get mobile plasma on anything but fast tllc is a rarity.

 

​3 snap-firing lascannons with re-rolls to hit is hardly a 'reliable kill'. The math works out to you getting 1 hit against AV12, a penetrating hit 50% of the time and 50% chance to Jink. Not to mention that you've now fired 225 points worth of models to likely just ding a hullpoint off of a flier.

 

​If you want *reliable* anti air you need Skyfire or a bird of your own. Here's a short rundown of the pros/cons as I see them.

 

​Skyfire:

​+ Fliers shiver their timbers.

+Often has Interceptor, a killer combo.

​- Useless against an army that doesn't have fliers (or skimmers).

 

​Bird:

+ Can shoot air and ground, depending which one you take (and as marines, I bet you it'll be a Storm Talon!) you'll even get +1BS against ground targets thanks to Strafing Run

​- Relies on reserves (or a Skyshield)

​- Bitch to manoeuvre

​- Interceptor prone

- Sucks if your flier arrives before their flier, as their flier will line up some nice plane-wrecking shots.

 

​What I'd personally take:

​* Got a Knight? Bring Icarus cannons. Skyfire, Interceptor and twin-linked for 35 points on your murder machine. Take two.

​* Just want token anti-air? Take the Aegis Defence Line with Icarus array.. It'll set you back 85 points, but at least you get a wall to hide behind.

​* Want to meddle with birds? Take 2 Storm Talons and a Land Speeder and call them a Raptor Wing formation detachment. 275 points after the mandatory Missile Launcher upgrades but automatically arrive turn 2, all separate units, total 6 S7 Ap4 shots at 60" and 8 S6 Ap4, Rending, Twin-Linked at 24". Speeder can dedicate an enemy unit it sees to die harder & faster. Yeah, the Talons are BS5 vs ground targets if your opponent doesn't stoop to taking fliers so you can wreck him/her even harder.

 

​Drop the speeder from the equation those storm talons are 5 points more than 3 lazorbacks. It sure isn't lascannon quality but it'll reliably kill fliers.

[Jolemai]

Thanks guys. I was looking at getting the reclusium command set and I already have a TLAC razorback(conversion) so if I do get the set the TLLC will probably be the one I choose.

That set is no longer available, so move fast to find one elsewhere!

[appiah4]

Emicus everything you posted ignores the fact that im not taking the rbs for aa, only the turreys which are 60pts not 275. The rbs are transports I would buy regardless.

 

Also, they are incredibly good against high t and high av so unlike most aa options are quite flexible.

 

Last but not leadt not penning does not equate not damaging and you failed to take into account they are ap2. Your math is fail.

[Emicus]

Emicus everything you posted ignores the fact that im not taking the rbs for aa, only the turreys which are 60pts not 275 2​25​ . The rbs are transports I would buy regardless.

 

It doesn't sound like you're buying razorbacks regardless if you're also taking drop pods which you'll actually put your assault marines in.​

 

Also, they are incredibly good against high t and high av so unlike most aa options are quite flexible.

 

​You're right, most AA is not flexible, that's my point. It either sucks, is AA, or a Flyer (with it's own drawbacks of reserves, minimum movement and turning restrictions)​

 

Last but not leadt not penning does not equate not damaging and you failed to take into account they are ap2. Your math is fail.

I apologise for doing some quick math off the top of my head, but after having tried to work it out 'for real' it's looking even worse. And no I didn't ignore exploding it's just a slim chance as I said.​

 

Math:

3 TTLC Razorbacks firing against a flier with AV11

Hit: 0.83

 

​Glance: 0.69

Pen: 0.55

​Explode: 0.09

 

​You had a two-fold question, lascannons versus armour and versus air, I elected to just look at air to see if it works out. I don't think it does but your perception might be different.