Information on Jaghatai Khan ?

[GreyCrow]

Hello guys !

 

So, I'm a bit curious to know more about the Primarch of the Scars, because it's a Legion that doesn't seem to have a lot of published materials (which makes sense considering they were outsiders for most of the Heresy). I've read about the history of Khan and the Vth on the wikia and Lexicanum, but I'm curious to know more about who is Khan. What did he like, what was he like ?

 

He seems like the kind of guy who can analyze a situation extremely rapidly and design expeditive means of victory, but that's just my speculation.

 

Cheers a lot ! :)

[Jerichus]

So, I'll preface this by saying that you should read some of the wonderful(&admittedly scarce) books about the white scars(Scars is quite good from what I hear); although many of them seem to have been of the limited edition variety...

In my understanding, The Khan is perhaps one of the most complicated primarchs.

On the one hand; he's is a ruthless tactician, and was unapologetic in his sometimes horrific way of waging war(I vaguely recall he and Guilliman having a spat about it). He didn't fight the enemy the way his enemies wanted. Set up a fortress? He'd go hit some supply depots. Trying to goad him into an open battle? He'd flank you while your men were sleeping. He is also very stubborn. No one could tell the Khan what he could or could not do, & the only person he would ever consider his superior is the Emperor. The enemy got one chance to surrender, and woe be to them who refused. He was a great commander on the ground; able to redirect troops and determine where his enemy was weak and where they were strong.

On the other hand; Jaghatai legitimately cares about his soldiers and could be merciful. He is honourable(in the martial spirit sort of way), and he never acted in half-measure. The Khan's harsh and intractable demeanor meant he had few friends among the other primarchs. He always considered himself an outsider and only managed to bond with a few other primarchs(Magnus and The Lion as I recall). He owned himself and didn't take feth from anyone. He was willing to do whatever had to be done, but did not let it consume or haunt him. The Khan was also fiercely loyal; both to the Emperor and his Legion. He never considered turning for a moment and, in my opinion, would never have been able to waste his men like the traitors did on Isstvan III.

So, in summary: A loyal but stubborn commander of few equal who valued his men and his pride more than he cared about fighting an even battle. Ruthless, but not cruel; Unapologetic, but not needlessly combative. Not as wild as Russ, but not as pensive as Guilliman. Intuitive & tenacious.

P.S: Apologies if I went on a tangent; I love talking about primarchs and Jaghatai is one of my faves .

[Ion]

Actually, iirc in one of the novels it shows that the Khan wasn't exactly a huge fan of the Emperor, for various reasons, and actually had a close relationship with Horus.

 

So he was one of those Primarchs that could have gone either way.

[GhostMalone]

He was close to Horus because Horus never questioned his way, Horus understood the khan was free and allowed him to wage war his way.

 

The khan also had a love hate relationship with the emperor, he understood what was being undertaken but he personally understood that to stop waging war would lead to the collapse of the imperium.

 

His fear was to not get fat and lazy (his opinion) and have someone take what he fought hard to create/protect. Ultimately he sided with the emperor not out of loyalty to him but to see ultimately why Horus chose to take the imperium from the emperor.

 

If it wasn't for magnus he would have sat on the fence for the entire heresy, then having Mortarion arrive pseudo Nurgle gave him more of a push to the imperium

[Jerichus]

Oh, I guess I oopsed a bit there . Sometimes it gets a bit hard separating new and old fluff!

Anyway I feel he was more than loyal to the few he was actually friends with(Magnus is the only one who comes to mind); and I agree with Kurama that he wouldn't have taken a side had he not been pushed to by Magnus.

[depthcharge12]

Step 1.) have you read scars? If not, go to step 2

2.) Read Scars right now.

3.) tell me you don't want to make a White Scar legion army, I dare you.

[b1soul]

Hello guys !

 

So, I'm a bit curious to know more about the Primarch of the Scars, because it's a Legion that doesn't seem to have a lot of published material

You should really read Brotherhood of the Storm and Scars

 

Both are some of the best writing in the HH series

 

A new WS/Jaghatai novel is coming out this month...called Path of Heaven. You might wanna grab that as well

[GreyCrow]

Awesome guys, thanks for the info !

From what I read, he was a surprisingly paced and held back man like Jerichus said : not storming in rage belling on his bikes, but offerinf chances to surrender. What I'm really interested in is his knack to quickly analyse the battlefield intuitively and "feel" the environment as it unfolds and so redirect his vastly mobile forces where they were needed. Quick strategic thinking is something I really like over capable planning

I'll try and find the novels (you'd be surprised how hard it is to find BL stuff in France, even in English) ! Because, I think it might be a Legion I'd be interested to make, but I just want a tad more information on them and their methods. Right now I'm drawn ruleswise to the Alpha Legion for its flexibility, but it requires quite some planning before the game which I'm not really into And I was recently thinking about Jetbikes for both AL and UM ideas, so why not look at the Scars :p

[Frater Cornelius]

From what I can gather was also something of an outsider. On the one hand, he accepted his role as an outrider and operated very remotely from anyone else, but on the other hand, he lamented that his Legion were mistaken for savages and tried his best to disassociate himself from the VIth for that reason.

[Ironwithout]

Awesome guys, thanks for the info !

From what I read, he was a surprisingly paced and held back man like Jerichus said : not storming in rage belling on his bikes, but offerinf chances to surrender. What I'm really interested in is his knack to quickly analyse the battlefield intuitively and "feel" the environment as it unfolds and so redirect his vastly mobile forces where they were needed. Quick strategic thinking is something I really like over capable planning

I'll try and find the novels (you'd be surprised how hard it is to find BL stuff in France, even in English) ! Because, I think it might be a Legion I'd be interested to make, but I just want a tad more information on them and their methods. Right now I'm drawn ruleswise to the Alpha Legion for its flexibility, but it requires quite some planning before the game which I'm not really into And I was recently thinking about Jetbikes for both AL and UM ideas, so why not look at the Scars :p

Nothing really I can add to what has been already said? But have your seen the Scars rules? They are really fluffy and very good. No one can do a bike/jetbike army like it

[Sandlemad]

Seconding what's already been said. To add a few more notes:

 

- Reserve. The Khan didn't have a huge amount of contact with the other primarchs. He was only close to Magnus and Horus, maybe Sanguinius to a lesser extent.  In Scars Dorn and Russ both admit they don't know what to make of him. Worth noting that when he's quoted in Betrayal, he's speaking up in defence of Angron against his brothers, saying that they cannot judge him as they don't even understand him. Interesting, as Angron is also shown as not being sold on the Imperial project.

When he was close though, he was close. Horus and the Khan show great camaraderie, not one-upmanship or anything. Horus apologies for giving him a dull command and the Khan half-heartedly shrugs it off. When he meets Magnus again in Scars, he puts their friendship above any thought of the civil war, in full knowledge that this probably didn't bode well for the loyalist cause.

 

- Obscurity. No one knows much about him. His movements are opaque and unclear even to his own legion, let alone imperial high command. When he's verbally sparring with Fulgrim, he comments that who the Emperor's Children are is clear from all their pomp and ceremony but no one knows his or his legion's capabilities. He even shows a bit of wounded pride about this, maybe hypocritically, when he thinks about how only with the onset of civil war does anyone care to find him. The Khan goes to some effort 'not to be at the center', as is his style of war, but then feels ignored or left out. Horus sort of calls him out on this in Brotherhood of the Storm.

 

- Cruelty. This is a tricky one but when the Khan is duelling an ork warlord in Brotherhood of the Storm, Shiban observes with some disquiet that his primarch could have ended the fight at any time but instead was drawing it out, cutting away at the ork and relishing in his ability. It's not quite sadism but it's certainly not honourable as an Imperial Fist or Ultramarine would understand it.

 

Similarly, when he fights Mortarion in Scars, there's this great bit where Mortarion does the classic 'join us' villain speech. Now, Dorn or Guilliman would have responded with something about honour; even the Lion made a witty quip and stuck his sword in Curze when faced with the same thing. But the Khan laughs in Mortarion's face and calls him an idiot, proceeding to mock him for choosing the wrong side, stabs viciously at all of his insecurities and says 'Don't drag me into your ruin. You're on your own, brother.'. Nothing about loyalty or duty there, just contempt.

 

When Mortarion then says that he'll take no pleasure in killing him - a pretty noble sentiment, for a traitor - the Khan grins and says "And there's the difference between you and me... By the time I make my kills, I am always laughing." A fantastic line. The Khan is majestic but not what you would call noble.

 

He's a complex guy!

[Charlo]

The little I've read of the Khan has made me really like him. He's as much of an enigma as Alpharius to an extent without all the moustache twirling and Saturday morning "got you now!" villain stories.

 

That said, he has a glorious 'tache for twirling and even surprised Alpharius who didn't know he had mars modify his ships to be much faster than normal.

[Petitioner's City]

If looking for Brotherhood of the Storm before Scars, you can buy it from BL site and recently on ebay (worth asking the seller if he still has it?) or for extra value it is included in Legacies of Betrayal (BL site and amazon uk). I think you can order to France, but maybe not?

 

Brotherhood is three first person narrations, each of which will help you. One is of Shiban Khan, a praetor-level character who doesn't know the Khan but seeks a glimpse of him in battle; one is the chief librarian, Yusegei, of the White Scars who recounts his encounter with the Khagan during childhood; one is a Departmento Munitorum general sent to add order to the Scars, because they are perhaps the least organised legion. Her narrative includes several interviews with the Khagan and Yusegei in the present time.

 

Scars is third person, with several narratives; but most relevant for you are the narratives of Shiban and Torghun, who wrestle over what the Legion could be; the continuing narrative of Yusegei who travels back from Nicea and who wrestles with being distant from his best friend and lord; and that of the Khagan, who struggles himself with his fraternal loves for Horus and Magnus, to whom he was closest, and his distance from the Emperor. 

 

As B1soul mentions, Path of Heaven  is out soon. 

 

Other stories of relevance are mainly by Wraight and set after Scars are: 

• 'Allegiance', published in Sedition's Gate. 
• 'Brotherhood of the Moon', in Eye of Terra. 
• Grey Talon, published most recently in Meduson and as an audio drama. 
• 'Little Horus', by Dan Abnett, set after Grey Talon, in Age of Darkness. 

[GreyCrow]

Thanks again guys !

 

I'm really liking the summaries you make, he looks like a very observant guy, very measured, very trolly but yet visionnary in his sense (he has a vision for how Astartes should be even though he shares the dream of the Emperor to unite mankind). From what I can tell, he also looks like a more extroverted version of Corax or Alpharius.

 

Really looking forward to learn more about this enigmatic figure, but I'm liking what I see so far :D

[Frater Cornelius]

You are forgetting the most important part. He battled across the galaxy in what appears to be high heels and he surfed into battle atop of a Rhino/Land Raider(?) during the Battle of Terra. If that doesn't make him awesome, I am not sure what does.

[bluntblade]

I'd say he's very singular, even for a Primarch. He's much more cunning than many of his brothers give him credit for- particularly his use of the Libraries to both nurture and restrain psykers. At the same time he's arguably quite obstinate at times, which is why he ends up having serious consequences for his Legion and others. Plus washing his hands of the big arguments by shooting off to the edge of the Galaxy could be seen as shirking some of his responsibilities.

 

That said, however, he's probably my favourite Primarch.

[Balthamal]

 

When Mortarion then says that he'll take no pleasure in killing him - a pretty noble sentiment, for a traitor - the Khan grins and says "And there's the difference between you and me... By the time I make my kills, I am always laughing." A fantastic line. The Khan is majestic but not what you would call noble.

 

I wouldn't go so far as to say he doesn't possess nobility. That's simply a matter of perspective. Would it match the classical sense of nobility that the VII or XIII would understand it? Unlikely. But that isn't to say it doesn't exist. Even Primarchs like Curze are said to have it - in the words of Sevatar "You have a savage nobility father" and the Khan is a long way above him. There's definitely evidence of it in his interactions with his brothers at Ullanor.

 

The fact he tells Mortarion that by the time he kills him he'll be laughing says a lot about his character in that he won't hate or waste time on regret, he'll simply be in the midst of the rush of the fight, enjoying it as he always had. He won't be laughing in contempt or mockery but simply through the high of being amidst what he loves.

[Sandlemad]

 

 

When Mortarion then says that he'll take no pleasure in killing him - a pretty noble sentiment, for a traitor - the Khan grins and says "And there's the difference between you and me... By the time I make my kills, I am always laughing." A fantastic line. The Khan is majestic but not what you would call noble.

 

I wouldn't go so far as to say he doesn't possess nobility. That's simply a matter of perspective. Would it match the classical sense of nobility that the VII or XIII would understand it? Unlikely. But that isn't to say it doesn't exist. Even Primarchs like Curze are said to have it - in the words of Sevatar "You have a savage nobility father" and the Khan is a long way above him. There's definitely evidence of it in his interactions with his brothers at Ullanor.

 

The fact he tells Mortarion that by the time he kills him he'll be laughing says a lot about his character in that he won't hate or waste time on regret, he'll simply be in the midst of the rush of the fight, enjoying it as he always had. He won't be laughing in contempt or mockery but simply through the high of being amidst what he loves.

 

 

Well put, you're right. I agree that his nobility doesn't match up with that exhibited by Dorn or Guilliman but it's there.

 

That's exactly the attitude he inculcated in his legion - "laugh while you are killing" - but he's the only loyalist primarch I can think of who would apply that kind of philosophy to a fight with one of his brothers. Even Russ approached Angron and Magnus mournfully when he censured them. The Khan was able to enjoy the high, as you say, without too much conflict or inner turmoil.

 

Interestingly I would note that his own legionaries could not actually bring themselves to act this way during the schism in Scars; they all approached fighting their battle-brothers much more hesitantly than their gene-father did with Mortarion.

[Balthamal]

It's never explicitly stated but my personal take on it would be thus - he doesn't really mull over killing his brothers too much because it's something he's considered previously. His intense hatred of tyranny is one of the very few things documented about him with certainty and it's also noted how he saw the progression of the Imperium up to Ullanor when the Emperor "retired" and returned to Terra. In his mind that could be the root of tyranny taking hold. Given the strength of his convictions - look at the lengths he went to, even to have his Legion potentially unsupplied in order to maintain his vision of freedom - it isn't a far stretch to imagine that should events reach a point where the Emperor's rule became unpalatable to him he'd act against it. Even the Emperor himself isn't sure where his loyalty lies. Say that did come to pass, Horus would certainly balk if ordered to bring him to heel, as likely would Magnus and Sanguinius. But the others? Russ wouldn't so much as blink, neither would Curze or Angron. Whilst others such as Fulgrim, Ferrus or Perturabo might find it distasteful they'd still likely comply.

 

As for the Legion as a whole, it's not hard to imagine that he simply never told them of his thinking. Given that they, like all the others, had a Terran contingent, it wouldn't auger well to come right out and say that there were doubts about the Emperor and the Imperium as a whole and that they could end up acting against it.

[GhostMalone]

And as if he'd want people to know what he's thinking, the key characteristic of the khan is his unpredictability.

 

He acts on impulse not like slanessh worship impulse but more he's got major adhd his mood dictates his course and he lives within the moment. Once a decisions made even if not thought out examined or even logical like other primarchs he acts not because he lakes the intelligence but because he's wired to be reactive.

 

In the heat of battle he is the heart tge soul the movement. Other primarchs like Guilliman the lion Horus may lead from the front but they don't truly become the front.

 

Angron is similar but he charges to the action whereas the khan lives in that moment he does not deny this he does not chase it he simply is it

[bluntblade]

I wouldn't say he's got ADHD, more that he's far less single-minded than the likes of Vulkan or Dorn, exemplified by his fondness for Go over Regicide. Once he commits to a course he feels is right he goes through with it, and it's carried out effectively.

 

That scene with the Alpha Legion is still one of my all-time favourite HH moments.

[GhostMalone]

Edit: now remember this is just my viewpoint so don't take this the wrong way people

 

As an adult with properly tested and diagnosed ADHD I can vouch that his actions and the way Chris Wright has portrayed him does coincide with a form of adhd.

 

I know from my perspective and from the insights we are given he fits the bill if we were to exaggerate it to superhuman levels.

 

We've got to remember the primarchs are exaggerated facets of humanity, if we were to look at his current known attributes I'd say he's not like Corax who's team freedom Fighter or Kure who's damaged and thinks he's mankind's judgment. The khan would most likely have nothing to do with the conflict until something gets his attention like the whole magnus thing.

 

In fact I guarantee after the way he treated the lodge members he truly doesn't even care about the decisions that lead to the heresy or why even a major faction of his Legion sided with Horus. He made his decision in the moment and now he's looking for something else to be occupying his time.

[bluntblade]

That's interesting. He seems less interested in the why than in the what and how- he never asks Magnus for reasons, just for what's happening. He does seem to believe in a better future for mankind, though- there's no reason to think his angry "we were meant for something better" isn't genuine.

[b1soul]

I find the ADHD theory interesting. Path of Heaven will further flesh out the Khan's personality.

 

I guess we'll see where Wraight takes it

[Vogon]

On question I have regarding the Khan is...

 

Did he ride a bike into battle like his legion loved to do?  

 

I don't recall many descriptions of him actually fighting but if he rode to battle on a bike that's going to be one hell of a machine.

 

And if that's the way Forge World take the model that's going to be amazing.

 

Cheers

 

Vogon