Deathwing Redemption Force and other Deathwing Rules

[zarkotics]

Threadomancy attempt from here split off for further discussion.

 

READ BRB PAGE 13 subsection “basic versus advanced” last sentence.

 

When the Codex and the BRB conflict always defer to the codex. The rules for deep strike state that only a unit fully composed of models with the deep strike special rule can deep strike. Now consider the humble Meiotic Spore- it's Outriders of the Swarms special rule forces it to arrive using the rules for deep strike, yet it does not actually confer the Deep Strike special rule. The BRB rules for deep strike says it can't arrive by deep strike because it doesn't have the deep strike special rule, but the codex says it arrives after deployment and before turn 1 using the rules for deep strike- because we always defer to the codex, the spore arrives using the rules for deep strike despite the fact that those very rules state that only units fully composed of models with the deep strike special rule may deep strike (which the spore does not have).

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The special rules for the Deathwing Redemption Force formation state that ALL units in this formation MUST be placed in deep strike reserves. Furthermore it states that ALL units in the formation AUTOMATICALLY ARRIVE BY DEEP STRIKE at the start of the chosen turn (2,3,4 secret note). Therefore if a unit from the Deathwing Redemption force takes a dedicated land raider, said landraider MUST be placed in deep strike reserves and MUST arrive at the start of the chosen turn by deep strike! You cannot deploy it on turn one, and it cannot arrive from reserves normally- it MUST automatically arrive by deep strike! And you cannot site the BRB as a reason why the landraider does not arrive by deep strike, for it is the BRB itself that states that the codex always takes precedence in the event of conflicting rules.

 

Note: The Deathwing strike force rules only let you pass or fail your reserve rolls but the formation rules never actually state that the units “automatically arrive by deep strike” but you must still technically place the landraider in deep strike reserves, which is the same as declaring it deep striking during your deployment, but you just choose to pass the reserve roll and it comes in on your table edge. Because it doesn't have deep strike and the codex doesn't specifically say it must arrive by deep strike. Get it?

 

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Tactical Precision: Belial and his unit do not scatter when arriving by deep strike.

 

The rules for Deep Strike state that when “arriving by deep strike” use the rules for arriving from Reserves.

 

The rules for Reserves states that an IC, his squad, and their dedicated transport are a Combined Reserve Unit. This is why you roll only 1 die for all of them when rolling for arriving from reserves/arriving by deep strike.

 

Therefore Belial with a 5-man tactical squad embarked upon a dedicated drop pod will not scatter when arriving by deep strike. For Belial, the Tactical Marines, and the drop pod are a single combined reserve unit when “arriving from reserves” and consequently when “arriving by deep strike”. Tactical precision only effects a unit “arriving by deep strike” which must invariably be a reserve unit and in this instance a combined reserve unit.

 

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In conclusion, if a Deathwing redemption force formation contained Belial with 5 Deathwing knights embarked upon a land raider redeemer as a dedicated transport. Then the Redeemer and it's lethal cargo MUST “automatically arrive by deepstrike” at the start of the chosen turn and not scatter. Ultimately roasting everything in the path of it's 2 perfectly positioned flamestorm cannons. As of now, this as not been FAQ'd. This is obviously RAW not intended.

[Orkinstein]

Veil of Time – “…is a blessing that targets the Psyker’s unit. Whilst the power is in effect, the Psyker and his unit can re-roll all failed saving throws.”

 

that will be nice for our DW terminators/Kinghts. With a stormshield, 1/36 for small guns and 1/9 for AP2 weapons.

[BlackTriton]

A defend-able argument, lets study it.

 

EDIT: new conclusion at the end: I now believe it is possible to Deep Strike land raider. still need FAQ though.

 

DA codex, P 158:

The restriction for DWSF state that a unit must have DW special rules or be dedicated transport.

the command benefits further state: all units [...] must start in Deepstrike reserve [...] 

then if the condition are met; [...] you can choose to pass or fail amy reserve rolls [...] no need to roll.

+ more restriction for the Venerable Dread.

*No restricton for HQ to have TDA*

 

DA codex P141:

the special rules for DWRF state: all units [...] must be placed in Deepstrique reserve [...] all units in this formation automatically arrive by Deep strike at the start of the chosen turn.

more restriction for the Venerable Dread.

restricton for HQ to have TDA

 

Now lets look at the general BRB rule:

BRB p162:

In order for a unit to be able to deep strike, all models in the unit must have the deep strike special rule and must start the game in reserve.

when placing unit in reserve, you must declare that they will be arriving from reserve by deep strike ( sometime called deep strike reserve).

units do not confer deep strike to vehicle they are embarked inside.

vehicle with deep strike may deep strike regardless of whether its passengers have deep strike or not. 

 

Analysis:

 - It is a special rules/command benefit that oblige a unit to be place in reserve and not a restriction of the formation.

 - The special rules do not interfere with the standard procedure of the BRB P162 that describe how a unit is placed to deep strike reserve.

 - The Land raider as a dedicated transport is a legal choices for both formation, but it cannot comply with the Deathwing assault special rule (DWRF) nor the summoned to war command benefit (DWSF).

 

Conclusion:

Since their is no provision in the rules concerning how to handle units that are a legal choices as far as formation restriction goes, but then cannot comply with the rules that said formation provide, I declare that for now, and until such time a official answer is provided, If a unit would be (at any time, for any reason) given a special rules that it can not comply with, it is illegal to give this unit this special rule. 

Meaning that even though a land raider is a legal part of a DWRF if taken as a dedicated transport, since said land raider cannot comply with the Deathwing assault rule that this formation confer, it is illegal to have a land raider in the DWRF.

 

Disclosure:

The finale ruling is rather arbitrary, one could rule that in the case of a unit that is given a special rules that it can not comply with, said unit gain all necessary additional special rule so that he may comply with the one he just gained.

But one cannot rule that the Special rule in our codex over-rule the P162 from the BRB as an excuse to Deep Strike a land raider.

 

EDIT:

As I have said in the conclusion, a land raider is a legal choice, the idea was that since it cant be put in DS reserve, it is no longer a legal choice for the formations.

BUT drop pods also lack the deep strike special rule, and they also have a special rule stating they must be placed in DS reserve and in this case it is universally accepted that they still can be deep strike. so either all drop pod are illegal unit, or Dark angels can deep strike landraider that are part of either the DWSF or DWRF.

[BlackTriton]

Side note:

aparently, it would be legal to take Ezekiel as a DWSF HQ (has DW special rule) of you take a drop pod from somewhere else and put him inside.

he will then be in deep strike reserve and fufill all requirement of the DWSF formation and Special rule.  

[Isiah]

What are you are you arguing here exactly? Deep striking Land Raiders (?).

 

Good luck to you with that one zarcotics :D

 

Are we not compiling an FAQ list to put to GW in all their recent rules request largesse?

 

Cheers

I

[Chaplain Lucifer]

And don't forget that since the Land Raider has assault ramp rule you can deepstrike with it and assault! ;)

Close but no cigar. The rules aren't airtight but a DS Land Raider is a tad more than bending the rules...

[Berzul]

So, how DO you do that. The Landraider comes in as a regular reserve? The squad inside has to arrive out of it by deepstrike?

[BlackTriton]

So, how DO you do that. The Landraider comes in as a regular reserve? The squad inside has to arrive out of it by deepstrike?

It is generally accepted that a landraider is not a legal unit to take in a DWSF or DWRF, since it cannot be taken without breaking a rule.

 

Past that point, its between you and your opponent to choose what rule to break:

- Summon to war special rule if you place the landraider in regular reserve,

- DeepStrique special rule if you place the landraider in deep strike reserve,

- Dedicated transport rule and summon to war rule if you place the landraider on the table while having the terminator deepstrike.

 

we would need a FAQ that state something like:

"The command benefit gain from DWSF and the special rules gain from DWRF that state every unit in the formation must start in deepstrike reserve does not apply to unit of DW terminator that purchased any landraider as a dedicated transport. the landraider and all unit inside must be placed in regular reserve and must be deployed at the same time as the other unit of the formation (in the case of DWRF) or they may choose to pass of fail any reserve roll (in the case of the DWSF)"

 

This addition to the rule would be accepted for most friendly match were I play, but never in tournament.

[Steve86]

 

- Dedicated transport rule and summon to war rule if you place the landraider on the table while having the terminator deepstrike.

 

 

 

I just wanna say im not argueing in any way that a land raider isnt illegal in the strike force (summoned to war rule). I would just like some clarification on how it breaks the dedicated transport rule i have my brb right here so just hit this newbie with a page number

[BlackTriton]

 

- Dedicated transport rule and summon to war rule if you place the landraider on the table while having the terminator deepstrike.

 

 

I just wanna say im not argueing in any way that a land raider isnt illegal in the strike force (summoned to war rule). I would just like some clarification on how it breaks the dedicated transport rule i have my brb right here so just hit this newbie with a page number

 

 

Hmmm, I was certain the rule said a unit that bought a dedicated transport have to begin the game in it.

but the rules actually read: the only limitation of a dedicated transport is that it can only carry the unit it was selected with [until the game begin].

 

Damn, i got wrong the only rule I did not bother to research! I will edit the post.

[aura_enchanted]

And don't forget that since the Land Raider has assault ramp rule you can deepstrike with it and assault!

Close but no cigar. The rules aren't airtight but a DS Land Raider is a tad more than bending the rules...

you cant assault from an assault vehicle assuming you come from deepstrike. the rules clearly say a deepstriking unit cannot (normally) charge the turn it arrives from deepstrike even disembaarking from a vehicle that has assault vehicle (or open topped).

[Chaplain Lucifer]

And don't forget that since the Land Raider has assault ramp rule you can deepstrike with it and assault!

Close but no cigar. The rules aren't airtight but a DS Land Raider is a tad more than bending the rules...

you cant assault from an assault vehicle assuming you come from deepstrike. the rules clearly say a deepstriking unit cannot (normally) charge the turn it arrives from deepstrike even disembaarking from a vehicle that has assault vehicle (or open topped).

Clearly you missed the sarcasm of my answer. The winky smile was there to exaggerate an already impossible situation to something even more ridiculous.

[Isiah]

Aye. Not lost on everyone CL :)

[Berzul]

It is quite baffling that no errata has been issued over this, though. 

I'm guessing the three most logical solutions to the problem would be to:

 

a) Ban the use of dedicated transports on the DWSF

b) Allow the use of dedicated transports, and then make them, and their unit, arrive with the rest of the army, but like regular reserves

c) Allow the use of dedicated transports, have them arrive along with the rest of the army, but through regular reserves, and have the unit arrive outside if it, through Deep Strike (sort of like a way to add Land Raiders as Heavy Support choices even though the Strikeforce does not allow for them to be used... sort of a way around the restriction)

[BlackTriton]

It is quite baffling that no errata has been issued over this, though.

I'm guessing the three most logical solutions to the problem would be to:

a) Ban the use of dedicated transports on the DWSF

Allow the use of dedicated transports, and then make them, and their unit, arrive with the rest of the army, but like regular reserves

c) Allow the use of dedicated transports, have them arrive along with the rest of the army, but through regular reserves, and have the unit arrive outside if it, through Deep Strike (sort of like a way to add Land Raiders as Heavy Support choices even though the Strikeforce does not allow for them to be used... sort of a way around the restriction)

They cant ban outright the dedicated transport allowance otherwise the V.Dread could no longer take a drop pod!

More likely they do not see a reason to FAQ this because we all play with the rule as intended: no LandRaider in DW only formation.

I just dont see how DW in land raider would fit the theme of deathwing being sommoned by the ravenwing, which is the whole point of these formation.

would like to see a supplement with a DW demi-company core (and a RW too) to customise the Lion Blade. Dream are made of these.

[Interrogator Stobz]

Agree BT, the intent of these Formations is a Teleport delivered DW force, with or without RW. Not an Armoured force, a new formation for that would be awesome so I can use my 4 LRs without paying the CAD tax, but the fluff is still more toward the DS role than the Armoured one so it's not all bad.

[Master Avoghai]

It is quite baffling that no errata has been issued over this, though.

I'm guessing the three most logical solutions to the problem would be to:

 

a) Ban the use of dedicated transports on the DWSF

b) Allow the use of dedicated transports, and then make them, and their unit, arrive with the rest of the army, but like regular reserves

c) Allow the use of dedicated transports, have them arrive along with the rest of the army, but through regular reserves, and have the unit arrive outside if it, through Deep Strike (sort of like a way to add Land Raiders as Heavy Support choices even though the Strikeforce does not allow for them to be used... sort of a way around the restriction)

You forgot one solution :

 

D/ rewrite the DWSF restrictions as such : All units from this detachment that are kept in reserve must be placed in Deep Strike reserve

 

That way you can play a full force of DSing termis or an army with LRs and footslogging termis...

 

And actually, when I see they managed to forgot half of the rule for the RWSF restriction, it is more than likely that rhey manage to forget this part of the sentence in the DW restriction for the DWSF

[BlackTriton]

 

D/ rewrite the DWSF restrictions as such : All units from this detachment that are kept in reserve must be placed in Deep Strike reserve

 

That way you can play a full force of DSing termis or an army with LRs and footslogging termis...

 

And actually, when I see they managed to forgot half of the rule for the RWSF restriction, it is more than likely that rhey manage to forget this part of the sentence in the DW restriction for the DWSF

 

My first thought reading you was: clearly impossible.

then I realize how "deepstrike reserve" is not a thing, in the BRB its only allusion is a foot note that sometime reserve that come in by DS can be mention as such.

 

As far as my research found, this is the only case in all warhammer 40k ever of a formation having a restriction to the unit you can take in the special rule it confers (and just after specifically stating that dedicated transport are fair game to boot). 

if you know of any other, please direct me to it.

 

EDIT: Currently being pointed at all formation that force you to start the game in DS reserve, the restriction are found in the special rule (like the skyhammer), but the unit that these formation can take are very clear.

[Harleqvin]

The Dedicated Transport thing is there for the use of Ven Dreads as they have to have a Dedicated Transport to be used in the Detachment/formation as Dreads don't have Deep Strike. The detachments/formations don't give anything "Deep Strike"
Another reason why there is no limitation on HQ having to have TDA in the DWSF. If you don't give them in TDA they can't arrive from reserves by "Deep Strike" but they aren't automatically arriving on a specific turn.

 

The DWSF doesn't give Deep Strike
The DWRF doesn't give Deep Strike either, but it states that all the units in the formation automatically arrive on the given turn, which is why it states that HQ models must be in TDA so they have Deep Strike because TDA gives Deep Stirke


The main issue here is that neither the DWSF or DWRF give Deep Strike. It just limits how the models in the detachment arrive. Which is from Deep Strike Reserve (meaning  from Reserve Via Deep Strike.) One on normal reserve rolls and the other automatically on the given turn.

The Ven Dread needs a drop pod because that's how it can arrive from Deep Strike because the Pod has DS.
Land Raiders do not get DS nor do they get DS from either formation

I can see the "possible" argument for DSing Land Raiders from DWRF but not for DWSF. All because of wording. However, the issue is we all know the intended which is the same for both. No deep striking Land Raiders.

It would be neat if they made a DW detachment/formation that allowed for some land travel. But the idea with these two detachments/formations is that they are immediately arriving from space/orbit like in the stories.


Also, the Meiotic Spore has rules stating that it comes in on the first turn by Deep Strike. Which is specifically over-riding the normal rules for deployment.

[shabbadoo]

Yes, the intention is that the entire force is being deployed from orbit, and the only way Land Raiders deploy from orbit is via Thunderhawk Transport.

To be held in Deepstrike Reserve, a unit MUST at the very least able to Deepstrike in the first place (i.e. have the Deepstrike rules, or another rule that also grants the Deepstrike rule), which a Land Raider can NOT do. Codex IS GREATER THAN rulebook doesn't mean codex IGNORES EVERYTHING I WANT IT TO FROM THE rulebook. What it means is codex *MODIFIES* rulebook, and nowhere in the codex does it very explicitly say "All units in this formation gain the Deepstrike rule if they do not already have it." Why MUST Dreadnoughts have the Drop Pod? Because they can not Deepstrike *ON THEIR OWN*, and if the Formation rules allowed anything and everything to Deepstrike to begin with, then the Drop Pods wouldn't be necessary for the Dreadnoughts at all, would they. The rules are more than kinda obvious in this way. What is happening with the DW formation rules is that the codex is modifying the core rulebook *OPTION* for the units to Deepstrike (the rules for which the unit must have to begin with to have the option at all) to it being a *REQUIREMENT* for the units to Deepstrike (in addition to modifying the timing of the event). Units without the Deepstrike rule don't have the *OPTION* to Deepstrike to begin with, so they can NOT be given the *REQUIREMENT* to do so, and so any units which cannot Deepstrike must be given a means to do so, and if they cannot be given the means to do so, as Dreadnoughts can be, SUCH UNITS CANNOT BE INCLUDED IN THE FORMATION.

So, none of you bring any cheesebeard Deepstriking Land Raiders, and I won't bring along units with 72" range weaponry that I will deploy on the roof of the 55" tall building that I also just happened to bring along (which is at least legal, if not very sporting).

[Raztalin]

Agree BT, the intent of these Formations is a Teleport delivered DW force, with or without RW. Not an Armoured force, a new formation for that would be awesome so I can use my 4 LRs without paying the CAD tax, but the fluff is still more toward the DS role than the Armoured one so it's not all bad.

Honoured Brother ... you can do this already by using the land raider spearhead formation if you wished :)  OK so it’s not directly from our Dex but it allows us to use the abundance of LR's we all seem to have accumulated! :)

 

Off topic maybe, so apologies.

[[TA]Typher]

Read the wording and special rules for a drop pod and compare that to the DW formation rules.

 

Drop pods don't have the DS special rule either. The wording is the same. There was a good thread on dakka that compared the two and convinced even the hardcore opponents of DS LRs. Me included.

[aura_enchanted]

Deepstriking raiders would be pretty funny, did anyone ask about this in the FAQ here?

[BlackTriton]

Deepstriking raiders would be pretty funny, did anyone ask about this in the FAQ here?

I did

 

Read the wording and special rules for a drop pod and compare that to the DW formation rules.

 

Drop pods don't have the DS special rule either. The wording is the same. There was a good thread on dakka that compared the two and convinced even the hardcore opponents of DS LRs. Me included.

Oh my god! 

Indeed, if the  "drop pod assault" special rule allows a unit without deep strike to be put in "deepstrike reserve", there is no reason a unit with "summoned to war" or "death wing assault" (such as a dedicated land raider) could't. 

[Harleqvin]

Except we all know what is intended and people are just trying to cheese it up.