Heresy: Unit Redundancy?

[GreyCrow]

Hello guys !

 

So, I've got a question for you as I'm finalizing the details of my heresy army building :D

 

One thing I've noticed in 40k when it comes to Marines army is that they seem to be more effective when there is a ton of redundancy and uniformity between the different corps of the army. Examples include : Troops of the same unit type (mostly) or at least that have a similar function, so you don't have individual units stretching thin. High damage elements seem to work best when repeated : 1 Vindicator is an annoyance, 3 is a threat, 6 is threat level extremis :p

I feel the explanation is that it's easier to concentrate force in a similar manner by adding larger numbers of similar units. Deployment is simpler, there is less stretching to do to apply meaningful damage.

 

I was wondering if the same analysis could be made in your experience of 30k ? :)

 

Cheers !

[Charlo]

Sure why not.

 

Although because Primarch's are a thing sometimes it gets a little death-stary.

 

Basically it boils down to: Oh man my Leviathan got slagged? Well good thing I have another etc

[Terminus]

You're talking about standard principles that apply to all dice and point-based games.  Dice require redundancy to achieve the effect you desire, especially in the face of losses.  And given a finite amount of resources, focusing on maximizing one or two strengths is far more effective than trying to do a little bit of everything.  So yes, of course redundancy is good, it kind of goes with the territory.

 

Maybe you meant to ask if MSU is the way to go? Not so much in 30K as in 40K.  In 40K you can take effective small units that are ~100 points a pop, but because in 30K you pay a tax on every unit you purchase, buying a bunch of small units will leave you severely outnumbered.  For example, the first 5 seekers you buy are 35 points with bare-bones equipment, while additional ones are 25 points with a combi-weapon. The first 10 breachers cost you 22.5 points each, but are only 10 for each additional one, etc. etc. That's why you see people take 3-4 solid units, rather than a bunch of weeny ones.  That said, some units have odd-ball pricing, and lend themselves to MSU.  Mor Deythan, for example, are super seekers that cost 50 points less for some reason and get cheaper combi-weapons.  The only saving grace is there is no Rite of War that makes them troops.

[GreyCrow]

You're talking about standard principles that apply to all dice and point-based games.  Dice require redundancy to achieve the effect you desire, especially in the face of losses.  And given a finite amount of resources, focusing on maximizing one or two strengths is far more effective than trying to do a little bit of everything.  So yes, of course redundancy is good, it kind of goes with the territory.

 

Maybe you meant to ask if MSU is the way to go? Not so much in 30K as in 40K.  In 40K you can take effective small units that are ~100 points a pop, but because in 30K you pay a tax on every unit you purchase, buying a bunch of small units will leave you severely outnumbered.  For example, the first 5 seekers you buy are 35 points with bare-bones equipment, while additional ones are 25 points with a combi-weapon. The first 10 breachers cost you 22.5 points each, but are only 10 for each additional one, etc. etc. That's why you see people take 3-4 solid units, rather than a bunch of weeny ones.  That said, some units have odd-ball pricing, and lend themselves to MSU.  Mor Deythan, for example, are super seekers that cost 50 points less for some reason and get cheaper combi-weapons.  The only saving grace is there is no Rite of War that makes them troops.

 

Thanks for your detailed comment !

 

I dig your bits about redundancy. It's always better to have contingencies when you're trying to achieve something anyways ;)

 

My point was more about the strategic value of similar units working together vs diversity like you mentionned in your opening paragraph. I was wondering whether it was taking it "one step further" that just having duplicates of units in a list, but rather finding a formula that works and just scaling it up with the points level.

 

For example, at 2000 points, you can make a list with about 40-50 Tacticals in Rhinos and 6 Predator Tanks with Lascannons and Executionners in squads of 2 with the token HQ somewhere like a Master of Signal or a Forge Lord. On paper it does sound like an effective list :P My question was if people felt (and I think you do) this type of list was more effective than let's say the same amount of Tacticals, only 3 Predators and 10 Skyhunters. Compared to, let's say, 40 Tacticals and 20 Skyhunters. With a force that is "single minded" in its approach and built to be effective at that.

 

Can't argue with you about MSU there. I guess the only interest of MSUing in 30k would come on whether you want the force to be mechanized or not (in which case smaller numbers are the only option, and the use of mobility will allow to pick fights where numbers aren't as important). But you make an interesting case : because 30k has economies of scale, maybe it's a further hint at scaling up (and be rewarded budgetarily and strategically for doing so).

 

I guess I shouldn't have used the word "spammy" in the title, it makes for a bad connotation :P

[Brofist]

I'm not sure if this is a 30k thing, but lately I've found myself preferring diverse choices rather than taking duplicates. The relatively good internal balance helps as there isn't a slam dunk unit in every single category. As Terminus explains it's also less efficient to split units up, with some exceptions. That means the game tends to favor investing points in what you have and making it work with everything else. When you consider that a basic troops choices could run you 300 points (just your HQ, bodyguard, and delivery system could rack up 600 points) at becomes hard to spam things at games below 2000 points unless it's a core theme to your army or you're ok having big holes in your army.

 

I think the only thing I take duplicates of are my troops and even then it's only in a few lists. Otherwise I'm happy to take one squad a breachers and a tactical squad in a rhino and use the two units to play with the strengths and weaknesses respectively.

 

I've definitely noticed that I do this more and more as I keep playing 30k, but again I'm not sure if it's just my own personal preference or if this is a trend.

[Billy Butcher]

This is 30K

 

Go big or go home!

 

Mega sized units ftw!

[Azkaellon3]

Diversity over multiple takes.

Normally your troops are only a tax so you can get to the better parts of the list.

 

And how does 4 tac squads in rhinos and 6 predators sound like a good list?

 

Any balanced and focused list would rip that apart and the damage you do is well not that great.

Two tac squads will always be enough, except you play we but then you don't want them in rhinos where they can't charge the turn they disembark.

 

So take a diverse range of troops to combat more scenarios.

[GreyCrow]

I have to say, the cold, resolute and logical explanation from Bulbafist of the Iron Warriors followed by the roary enthusiasm of harrypotter of the World Eaters made me chuckle. You guys picked your Legions well

@Bulbafist : Could you post me your lists to see how you approach diversity ? I understand the need to avoid strategic holes, but the idea was to plug them by making it hard for the opponent to use his own strengths.

For example, let's follow the spammy model with half the points invested in a single unit type and half the points invested in Troops (I felt that this was usually a pretty efficient points spread in 30k) and take that example about the 40 Tacticals in Rhinos and 6 Executionners. The biggest weakness of this list for example is that it absolutely sucks in melee. Knowing that, the idea is to keep the Tacticals in transports (to make it hard for the opponent to get to them), and to use the Tacticals as a security line to protect the Predators at all costs (because they carry the damage of list). Maybe we can vary the units rather than having 6 Predators, maybe a 3 and 3 split with Vindicators for example, but you get the idea I was thinking of. Having uniforms corps with 1 mechanized infantry corps and 1 armour corps and doing them effectively, rather than having a bit of each (like 2 Predators and 1 Terminator Squad), in order to increase the momentum of each corps.

For a melee example with the World Eaters for instance (to see how this applies to melee armies as well). Typically, you can throw 2 units of 5 Red Butchers in Land Raiders (or 1 giant unit of 10 in a Spartan) at 2000 points while still having quite a large amount of Troops, compared to having 1 smaller unit of Red Butchers and 2 Sicarans for instance.

@Harrypotter : I did have the idea of throwing 30 Skyhunters Jetbikes at 3000 points Looked fun and epic

But then I saw the price tag and decided to go another route

EDIt :

@Azkaellon : Interesting point, can you enlighten me as to how 18 Plasma Cannon shots per turn and up to 12 Lascannon shots as a backup isn't a good damage ? What are the lists that would be auto-win against that for example ?

Just for argument's sake for the discussion of versatility versus spamming, because you make big statements and it'd be great if you could back them up ;)

[Azkaellon3]

Leviathan with melta lance and drill drops turn 1, considering that you have the preds in squadrons, I kill about two and that way take a big part of you damage output from you and I have a monster you'll have a hard time dealing with.

Other examples would be flyers, any high strength low ap weapon (medusa, vindicator, or even a typhoon that will rip anything apart that you have in your list), grav or sicarian venators that will take your damage output to almost zero.

 

The approach of massed tactical a might work with a legion like world eaters but other then them I don't see how they are viable in such a low ap meta.

You will only be a threat against other infantry armies and even those will normally have tanks dedicated to crushing other tanks so that the infantry can rip and tear or capture objectives.

 

Really 18 shots sounds impressive but against a versatile good list you won't see yourself getting far.

[GreyCrow]

Leviathan with melta lance and drill drops turn 1, considering that you have the preds in squadrons, I kill about two and that way take a big part of you damage output from you and I have a monster you'll have a hard time dealing with.

 

If you have podded Dreadnoughts, especially Leviathans, I'm going to hold all my high damage tanks in Reserves and deploy them far, far away from your Leviathan as possible. My goal isn't to deploy the Predators boldly on the table for the opponent to come shoot at them. I'd rather lose Tacticals and Rhinos (which are there purely to grab objectives and be meatshields). I'm okay losing 1 turn of fire from the main cannon if that gives me at least 2 turns of shooting later on.

 

But, if you started throwing 2 to 3 Leviathans in my backfield, can you see how annoying they would really be ? Compared to what ? 1 Leviathan and a couple medusas in the backfield (which should takeup the same amount of points as the Leviathan).

 

 

Other examples would be flyers, any high strength low ap weapon (medusa, vindicator, or even a typhoon that will rip anything apart that you have in your list), grav or sicarian venators that will take your damage output to almost zero.

 

That's 40 Tacticals in Rhinos mate. A Typhon won't rip apart 4 Rhinos ;) If he targets the Predators, that's why I have them in 3 squadrons of 2 rather than 2 of 3. They don't cost much more to MSU and they force the opponent to dedicate multiple units (because the 10" blast of the Typhon can only do so much against 2 Predators out of 6 that the list has, and I have 3 Predators for every Typhon).

 

I'm not trying to say that this list is unbeatable, not by any means. But there is ways to tactically ensure you avoid as much damage taken as possible when on the battlefield. People who deploy high damage tanks on the board T1 while the opponent has podded anti-tank deserve to get their tanks blown open :p

 

These Predators will also crush Rhinos. Even when coming from reserves, 6 S7 AP2 blasts have a good chance of wrecking a rhino (not counting the extra bonus of the snap shot Lascannons) or even blowing it up outright, for the next Predators to shoot at the sweet sweet contents that will now be all bunched up for the blasts. Tactically speaking, I'd rather have his own tanks shoot at mine, while I ensure to get his infantry with a combinned firepower from my own and his ;)

 

Regarding Fliers, yes, they are always an annoyance to Tanks. Playing lots of fliers in 40k, I know that there are some tricks with AV facing when you want to make sure that fhe fliers have less capability to get your weak sides (which if you allow it, I agree that the fliers will maul the tanks). For example, in a squadron of 3, angling the different AV13 values so that no matter where the enemy comes from (in the air), it will always be facing AV13. It's not invicible obviously, but better than getting shot on AV11 right ? ;)

 

My point was : don't discount lists because they were badly played ;) We can't know the outcome of a game until it is actually played and I think there are more tank tactics than you realize ;)

From what I can see though, the lists you posted or the different ideas aren't autowin.

 

What kind of Tank Hunting tanks were you thinking about ? Venators and Sicarans ? I'm interested in the different counter options.

[Azkaellon3]

Your thread, your rules.

 

So if we don't want to discuss list, let's get back talking about the general idea.

 

But as a final word: the tac pred list will get hammered by every decent list no matter what you say, it has only anti infantry and lacks anti tank/flyer and is not the most mobile.

Take out the preds and I can relax.

 

Tank hunting tanks would be vindicators (both) sicarians (both) medusas, he'll even land raiders and Spartans will turn the preds into a fine paste of scrap metal.

 

 

Bit returning to the actual idea of spamming, I'd say it depends on the legion, characters and rite you play.

 

If you play we feel free to put up a lot of crazed maniacs or if you play ferrus go wild on av 13, playing chogorian brotherhood or ravenwing spam bikes.

But apart from that, always balance your list or you will have problems design with a lot of situations.

[GreyCrow]

Wait, what ? We've been discussing the lists You know a discussion is two people exchanging points of view back and forth, right ? The goal of the thread was about the idea of spamming units as a vector of competitivity, not specifically the example of Predators

Regarding your points though :

- Vindicators aren't Tank Hunting tanks. They can damage tanks, but they're far more effective shooting at infantry. A Vindicator against a Predator's front AV (assuming the shot hits) has a tad more than a 40% chance to deal a penetrating hit, and then a 16% chance of blowing it up outright, and that is before cover (which the Predator would be in). That is a 20% chance to inflict a hull point, which is not good. In any case, the Vindicators would have to keep shooting at the tank just to make sure it snap fires (and can't shoot its blast), and they wouldn't be shooting at infantry. Both "cavalry" being negated, it's going to turn into a purely infantry superiority battle.

- Sicarans and Venators, completely agree with you. They are fast, they have punch, probably the better all around tanks in the Horus Heresy from my point of view.

- Medusas are a tad better than the Vindicators at dealing with vehicles yes, due to being barrage and hitting on the side armour. But, it's a single hull point dealt, not a destroyed tank.

- Land Raiders, I highly doubt that. Spartans would be more of a nuisance, but once against, cover halves the probability of damage It does work both ways though, which is why these Predators won't target tanks unless there is a target of opportunity.

Once again, individually, the statistics of these units to deal reliably with a Predator isn't in their favour, let alone 6. Once again, not trying to push the sale of Executionners, but if they shut down 1 to 2 Predators in a turn, that's still 66% of the big guns that is still firing. With the jetbike spam, even if they kill 5, that's still 15 that will be crashing the lines.

Mate, I'm not saying don't discuss the topic, just let's have good reliable examples of diversed and balanced lists that can just down a spammy list, regardless of the spammed unit. What I mean by shut down is completely negate the overwhelming strength in one specific aspect.

[Billy Butcher]

Wait, you mean a mad charge across open ground isn't viable???

[GreyCrow]

Wait, you mean a mad charge across open ground isn't viable???

It is, if you have more bodies than they have bullets :D

[SkimaskMohawk]

@askaellon: you won't convince him of anything, check out the ultramarines thread for an example of what I'm talking about or the Raven Guard one for a lesser example

 

@Crow: Your math seems busted in general.

 

On Vindicators: Str 10 with Ordnance vs AV 13 is a pen 75% of the time and a glance 90% of the time. Not sure how you got to "a tad more than 40%" for pens or 20% for a hull point. If you're talking about the laser vindicator, then yes, each individual shot has a 43% chance to pen, but on average all 3 shots hit resulting in 1.3 pens; glances average out to 2.25.

 

On Medusas: Will always do at least 1 hull point (possibly more if you can clip 2 preds if you're lucky but most likely not) and pens 97% of the time, resulting in a possible explosion but more importantly making it snap fire 50% of the time. Hardly something to dismiss.

 

Also its important to note that if you've been assuming that you get cover in all of these scenarios, that the most prolific cover is actually 5+ from intervening models, not 4+.

 

In general the best tank to spam is the Krios Venator in a Matrix of Ruin list 

[GreyCrow]

@Crow: Your math seems busted in general.

 

On Vindicators: Str 10 with Ordnance vs AV 13 is a pen 75% of the time and a glance 90% of the time. Not sure how you got to "a tad more than 40%" for pens or 20% for a hull point. If you're talking about the laser vindicator, then yes, each individual shot has a 43% chance to pen, but on average all 3 shots hit resulting in 1.3 pens; glances average out to 2.25.

 

On Medusas: Will always do at least 1 hull point (possibly more if you can clip 2 preds if you're lucky but most likely not) and pens 97% of the time, resulting in a possible explosion but more importantly making it snap fire 50% of the time. Hardly something to dismiss.

 

Also its important to note that if you've been assuming that you get cover in all of these scenarios, that the most prolific cover is actually 5+ from intervening models, not 4+.

 

In general the best tank to spam is the Krios Venator in a Matrix of Ruin list 

 

First of all, I'm not against being convinced, but let's have some proper arguments like you did in that post. My Math was wonky indeed ;) Redid the math with that in mind, can't argue there.

 

Your point about cover I don't understand. Are you saying tanks can't get a 4+ cover save (down to 3+ due to night fighting) if they are behind a 4+ cover save building with at least 25% of the facing being shot at obscured ? Or am I incorrect in that interpretation of the rules (page 78 of the BRB) ? Or don't you hide your vehicles in cover when there is something that can hurt it ? :)

 

So, with the 4+ cover (because you should always aim to get as much cover as much as possible), a regular Vindicator with Demolisher Cannon does a pen 37.5% of the time it hits (that's where my math got wonky because I counted cover twice, my bad). Over 6 turns, that is 3 Hull point, or a Predator destroyed. If we count the Explodes! result, that's 1/6th of 37.5% or a 6% chance of occuring per shot. It's possible, but hardly something I'd bank on with a couple Vindicator shooting at 6 Predators. Azkaellon's point was saying that the Vindicator was a Tank Hunting vehicle, which is definitely not his forte. But, thanks for correcting my math, it was indeed wrong. 

Regarding the Laser Vindicator, no argument that it is a good platform.

 

Regarding your point about snap shooting having a good chance with Vindicators, it is definitely right and I even mentionned that in my post. But, if you're spending time shooting Medusas and Vindicators at Predators, they are not shooting the infantry which is their forte. Because under each blast you have a greater chance of inflicting more than 1 wound, and as such give your own Troops a better chance at securing the area. Like I explicitely said in my previous post :

 

 

In any case, the Vindicators would have to keep shooting at the tank just to make sure it snap fires (and can't shoot its blast), and they wouldn't be shooting at infantry. Both "cavalry" being negated, it's going to turn into a purely infantry superiority battle.

 

 

If you want your tanks to shoot at other tanks, that's super fine, but like I said, it's going to turn into an infantry superiority battle rather than providing an edge to your own infantry. That's a perfectly fine strategic approach, but might as well pick tanks that are designed to actually kill the other tanks effectively rather than having both cavalry elements rub each other's chest and not contributing to the rest of the battle ;)

[SkimaskMohawk]

For the cover I'm saying usually there's 4 or 5 ruins max which other than buildings are the only thing that provide 4+ cover; in most cases it'll be intervening dudes providing cover. I agree that you should always be using the terrain as much as possible but if you're hypothetically always getting 4+ cover then I'd have to assume their fire arcs are extremely limited as is their maneuverability. For vehicles fortes; any high strength pie plates should be shooting at the main threats to your list. Assuming there's some sort of high impact infantry then the biggest threat to them is the predators; once they've been neutralized all that's left are jetbikes and tac marines which are comparatively low on the threat scale and can be focused down by your now much more safe army. If your hypothetical list had Firedrakes or butchers or justaerin or deathshroud or any 2+ save infantry, then yes, there would be some important decisions to make, but in lists that revolve around only one primary ranged threat and no melee threats then it's a no brainer to kill the threat and then transition

[Azkaellon3]

So a general list that will take yours apart:

 

damocles

Forge Lord

Termis in spartan

2 grav corti in pods

2 tacs in rhino

2x2 grav speeders

Xiphon

melta lev in pod

2 sicarians venators

 

Just very general list that will tear yours apart with ease.

Add in rites or legions at will.

 

Of course your argument will be: we haven't tested that...

 

Imagine a lightweight boxer vs a heavyweight. Both are good but the heavyweight will just punch the hell out of the lightweight.

 

And the chance that your tacs will win a infantry battle are pretty low. They are just your bread and butter and will loose against everything more elite then them, which is like everything.

 

And about my tankhunting vindicators, of course they are dedicated anti infantry but high strength ordinance and low ap makes them viable tankhunters if there is no infantry to shoot at. And why the hell would I won't to shoot at rhinos who carry tacs when I can take out your only source of damage?

 

But since you are developing legatus level of "I'm rights", this will be my last post unless you start seeing what everyone is saying (spamming only works in certain units and tacs are certainly not in that categorie).

 

Hope you learned something and have fun.

[GreyCrow]

I dig your point there ;)

 

Then, the question remains for versatility vs spam. If for example at 2000 points, you have a high impact infantry unit (which is indeed a big threat like you mentionned), let's say Red Butchers in a LR or Spartan for example's sake just because they need some form of transportation to actually reach melee range effectively. Assuming the list has got 30 Tacticals in Rhinos as well (so that the line advances quite strongly), that's roughly 1100-1200 points invested in the "line" when you include the Praetor/Consul to make the list legal (roughly 200 points per Tactical in Rhinos, I counted 500 points for the beatstick unit). The list is left with 800-900 points free.

 

My question is : you seem to make it easy to deal with the fire support elements. How do you picture this being easy (genuin question, not sarcastic rhetorical) ? Based on your point about the cover and terrain pieces, am I right in assuming that your picture the 6 Predator Executionners deployed on the board since Turn 1 in a nicely organized gunline ?

I'm more of a fan of the decisive action, so for example I would have no qualms about holding the Predators in Reserves if there is a risk that they'd be shut down T1 or easily grabbed. The "line" part (Tacticals) like you said are less threatening because less decisive (Terminators are decisive, but to lesser extent due to their very very short range except some shooty variants like the Tyrants : they have trouble applying damage except very locally), so while their loss is sad in a Line + Cavalry Framework, they're built to take the damage while the "cavalry" (I consider cavalry any unit that has high damage and high damage projection, so in this case the executionners) deals it.

 

So, please, tell me a battle scenario where a 2k points list with 40 Tacs in Rhinos + HQ + 6 Predator Executionners (with Lascannons sponsoons) be easily defeated by a list with a diverse selection of units ? With deployment, lists and T1-T2 expected outcome through statistics.

 

Not trying to be the devil's advocate, but really for the sake of spamming versus diversity in list building when searching for efficiency. We can even do a Vassal battle :p

[Slips]

Alright, while we might not all agree on the same points, at least try and keep it respectful.

[GreyCrow]

So a general list that will take yours apart:

damocles

Forge Lord

Termis in spartan

2 grav corti in pods

2 tacs in rhino

2x2 grav speeders

Xiphon

melta lev in pod

2 sicarians venators

I agree that this list sounds pretty beasty, but if I counted well the points, without upgrades except these you have indicated : you are at around 2745 points (I may have messed up some points, but not by 750ish points I also counted 5 Terminators in the Spartan, perhaps you meant 10 ? In which case the list is at 3000 points)

The 2000 list I was talking about was (to act as an experimental food for thought list for the spam vs diversity debate) :

Forge Lord

5 x 10 Tacticals in Rhinos with Dozer Blades (except on 2 of them) + Artificer Armour on the Sergeant

3 x 2 Predators Executionner with Lascannon sponsoons

I agree that with 750 points more, it would be a bloodbath in your favour But let's talk at 2k points here.

If we wanted to talk about it at 3000 points (if I assume that was the intended level of your list), then scaled up :

Forge Lord HQ

6 x 10 Tacticals in Rhinos with Dozer Blades and Artificer Armour

3 x 3 Predators Executionner with Lascannon Sponsoons

5 Terminators in a Land Raider with Power Fists, because I ran out of Troops slots

EDIT Changed 2 x 3 in 3 x 2 for the 2k points list

EDIT 2 : What is scary about your list is the 3 Podded Dreadnoughts and the Terminators. But in this case it's not really the fact that it is diverse, but rather that the units work similarily for melee area denial (Terminators and Dreadnoughts). But in this case, we're getting into heavy redundancy rather than diversity of force.

[Slips]

How about this?

 

+++ Generic 2k (2000pts) +++

 

++ Legiones Astartes: Crusade Army List (Age of Darkness) (2000pts) ++

 

+ HQ (180pts) +

 

Legion Praetor (180pts) [Artificer Armour, Cyber-hawk, Digital Lasers, Iron Halo, Mastercraft a Single Weapon, Power Glaive]

··Master of the Legion [Pride of the Legion]

 

+ Troops (410pts) +

 

Legion Veteran Tactical Squad (205pts) [Furious Charge, 5x Legion Veteran Space Marines, Legion Vexilla, 3x Power Weapon]

··Legion Veteran Sergeant [Artificer Armour, Power Glaive]

 

Legion Veteran Tactical Squad (205pts) [Furious Charge, 5x Legion Veteran Space Marines, Legion Vexilla, 3x Power Weapon]

··Legion Veteran Sergeant [Artificer Armour, Power Glaive]

 

+ Elites (480pts) +

 

Contemptor-Cortus Class Dreadnought Talon (240pts)

··Cortus Dreadnought [Chainfist with inbuilt twin-linked Bolter, 2x Graviton Gun, Legion Dreadnought Drop Pod]

 

Contemptor-Cortus Class Dreadnought Talon (240pts)

··Cortus Dreadnought [Chainfist with inbuilt twin-linked Bolter, 2x Graviton Gun, Legion Dreadnought Drop Pod]

 

+ Fast Attack (200pts) +

 

Anvillus Pattern Dreadclaw Drop Pod (100pts)

 

Anvillus Pattern Dreadclaw Drop Pod (100pts)

 

+ Heavy Support (730pts) +

 

Leviathan Siege Dreadnought Talon (360pts)

··Leviathan Siege Dreadnought [Cyclonic Melta Lance, Legion Dreadnought Drop Pod, Leviathan Siege Drill]

 

Leviathan Siege Dreadnought Talon (370pts)

··Leviathan Siege Dreadnought [Grav-flux Bombard, Legion Dreadnought Drop Pod, Phosphex Discharger]

 

+ Legion +

 

Legion Astartes [Loyalist, V: White Scars]

 

Its 2k Flat on the head and with 6 Pods; 3 on T1, the rest whenever.

 

Apart from the Tac Vet Squads, your Bolter Marines can hurt LITERALLY nothing in my list.

 

Meaning the only thing I have to actually worry about is your Predators or single land raider with 5 terminators; hardly scary for Dreadnoughts.

 

The Grav Flux has Ignores Cover so it can pretty much delete a Tac Squad a turn if they get debussed.

Melta Lance can pretty much nuke 1 Predator Squadron a Turn; or even immobilize a single pred and render the who squadron unable to move.

4 Graviton Guns on 2 Chainfist Cortus' means either your tacs are dead/slowed down or your AV is dead.

 

Tac Vets have Ap2 and/or Ap3 at intiative to just rip through your own Tac Squads and any 2+ Saves and Unwieldy Ap2 you might have; furious charge means the Glaives are wounding on a 2+ on the Charge, any swords are wounding on 3's.

 

If its an Objective Game, I drop my pods on them and just sit in them as your Bolters do nothing to Av12.

[SkimaskMohawk]

I dig your point there

Then, the question remains for versatility vs spam. If for example at 2000 points, you have a high impact infantry unit (which is indeed a big threat like you mentionned), let's say Red Butchers in a LR or Spartan for example's sake just because they need some form of transportation to actually reach melee range effectively. Assuming the list has got 30 Tacticals in Rhinos as well (so that the line advances quite strongly), that's roughly 1100-1200 points invested in the "line" when you include the Praetor/Consul to make the list legal (roughly 200 points per Tactical in Rhinos, I counted 500 points for the beatstick unit). The list is left with 800-900 points free.

My question is : you seem to make it easy to deal with the fire support elements. How do you picture this being easy (genuin question, not sarcastic rhetorical) ? Based on your point about the cover and terrain pieces, am I right in assuming that your picture the 6 Predator Executionners deployed on the board since Turn 1 in a nicely organized gunline ?

I'm more of a fan of the decisive action, so for example I would have no qualms about holding the Predators in Reserves if there is a risk that they'd be shut down T1 or easily grabbed. The "line" part (Tacticals) like you said are less threatening because less decisive (Terminators are decisive, but to lesser extent due to their very very short range except some shooty variants like the Tyrants : they have trouble applying damage except very locally), so while their loss is sad in a Line + Cavalry Framework, they're built to take the damage while the "cavalry" (I consider cavalry any unit that has high damage and high damage projection, so in this case the executionners) deals it.

So, please, tell me a battle scenario where a 2k points list with 40 Tacs in Rhinos + HQ + 6 Predator Executionners (with Lascannons sponsoons) be easily defeated by a list with a diverse selection of units ? With deployment, lists and T1-T2 expected outcome through statistics.

Not trying to be the devil's advocate, but really for the sake of spamming versus diversity in list building when searching for efficiency. We can even do a Vassal battle

The tables I play on always have a very large LoS blocker in the center along with 4 ruins that completely block LoS as a basis for the games I play and so you can understand where I'm coming from.

In general I would want to go second as its always easier to win objective missions with bottom of the turn. If I was using an infiltrate heavy night lord list it would be even more favorable as the infiltrate allows me to react to any deployment the enemy would make. That being said, deploying second is also very useful as I'd just use the large LoS centerpiece to hide from the predators, or not if you reserved them. Going by the original pred/tacs/bikes list I'd deploy my spartan and sicaran opposite the preds if I could (i.e. making the enemy deploy first) and if you reserved them I'd deploy them to kill rhinos instead as without preds on the field, they are the most important thing. First turn would also see a podded gravtemptor come down to add to vehicle killing. Turn two I'd hopefully get my fire raptor and deepstriking combi plas terminators to kill any marine squads/ preds/ bikes that are in too good of a position. The fire raptor is really what allows me to mulch through the marine squads and even side arc on the preds in the mid game, while the vehicles and terrain allow for my scoring units not be targeted by any plasma. Of course, this is assuming its on a board like I usually play on or similar.

Here's the list, one I used at a tournament I ran almost a month ago so its not like I'm just using hypothetical units/counters.

++ Legiones Astartes: Crusade Army List (Age of Darkness) (2000pts) ++

+ HQ (175pts) +

Sevatar (175pts)

····Master of the Legion [Pride of the Legion]

+ Troops (1105pts) +

Legion Tactical Support Squad (185pts) [4x Legion Space Marines, Plasma Guns]

····Legion Sergeant [Artificer Armour]

Legion Tactical Support Squad (135pts) [4x Legion Space Marines, Volkite Chargers]

····Legion Sergeant [Artificer Armour]

Legion Terminator Squad (225pts) [Cataphractii Terminator Armour with Combi-bolter and Power Axe, 4x Combi-Plasma, 4x Legion Terminators, Teleportation Transponder]

····Legion Terminator Sergeant [Combi-Plasma] [Power Axe]

Legion Terminator Squad (560pts) [Cataphractii Terminator Armour with Combi-bolter and Power Weapon, 4x Legion Terminators, 4x Power Fist]

····Legion Spartan Assault Tank [Armoured Ceramite, Auxiliary Drive, Dozer Blade, Flare Shield]

····Legion Terminator Sergeant [Chainfist]

+ Elites (280pts) +

Contemptor Dreadnought Talon (280pts)

····Legion Contemptor Dreadnought [Extra Armour, 2x Graviton Gun, Legion Dreadnought Drop Pod]

+ Heavy Support (440pts) +

Legion Fire Raptor Gunship (230pts) [Four Hellstrike Missiles, Reaper Autocannon battery]

Legion Sicaran Battle Tank (210pts) [Armoured Ceramite, Auxiliary Drive, Dozer Blade, Lascannons]

+ Legion +

Legion Astartes [VIII: Night Lords]

Turn 1 your shooting against my sicaran with one squad of preds shooting all weapons and complete LoS: Lascannons 1 pen 1 glance. Executioner turrets 1 glance. If I'm using cover (likely as I wouldn't just stick it in the open) then both squads would need to shoot to kill it. If there's Night Fight then unless you got lucky on the pens getting through and exploding (6% chance) then it would still be alive. Most likely it wouldn't be in LoS as I can rely on the speed to move 12" to get good firing arcs, especially if I had deployed second.

In return I'd shoot with the spartan lascannons causing 1 pen and 1 glance. The sicaran would move and fire the turret and a lascannon on full BS getting one more pen from the turret. The grav dread would put 2 hull points on a pred.

The most likely end result of this hypothetical turn would be your 0 HP to my 5HP.

Of course I would always expect you to reserve at least one unit of preds against this list and hide the rhinos and tacs using LOS blocking terrain, just as I would hide the sicaran and the support squads. Things like deployment and mission factor in even more, but my list would hold the advantage as it just has no good targets for you to predator as well as more versatility in terms of speed and maneuverability

[GreyCrow]

@Slip : The goal of the Tac Squads in my list isn't to hurt anything but other Troops and grab objectives. As we can see from your list, what's really really scary is the fact that you throw 4 Dreads in the face of my list (once again "spamming).

 

I never said that the list with the Predator was unbeatable by the way, and a list like this would definitely have the means to do it. I do lack quite a bit of S9 S10 in that theoretical list.

 

Against your podded list, I'd do anything to ensure that you have first turn (if I roll first, I'll deploy first then choose to let you go first, if I roll second and you want me to take first turn, I'll do the same strategy but splitting my Predators when they come from reserves until the rest of your force arrives) so I see where your Pods will land. I would split my Tacticals on both sides of the DZ in groups of 2 and 3s. Keep the 3 Predator squadrons of 2 in reserve as well as the Forge Lord. Depending on the board, your pod options would fall into 3 categories :

- Pick a side with your Dreadnoughts and get the Tacticals there

- Split your forces

- Deploy in the center so you have a big area denial

 

In any case, I would pick a side where the survival chances of the Predators are the best (so, the furthest away from your Dreads). In the off chance you leave me first turn, I'd simply pop smoke on the Rhinos for better survivability (hoping for night fighting). In essence, I would give you a side and work my way from the next. Keeping my Tacticals in Rhinos as long as possible, and flat outing as soon as you land. Aside from the Dreadclaws, once the list is podded, it doesn't have much mobility so I'd play on that in kiting as much as possible.

If a Predator gets immobilized, I think I can still break coherency (but it counts as destroyed ? Don't have the BRB at hand right now).

Basically, what would win this scenario would be who gets the reserves first on the board, which would give a clear advantage to the second player in this specific scenario. Depending on the scenarios, to slow your Dreads, I would make roadblocks with the Tacticals and the Rhinos. Why not ramming as well for fun (I don't see that happen often ! :D )

 

I would also have to sacrifice my forgelord, oh well :p It'd be a fun battle for sure even if your list has quite the chance to win because of area denial :D

___

 

Once again, the point was never to show that the Predator spam was the best answer, but whether spamming units is better than diversity. Your list is quite spammy as well with strong strengths in the close range department and AV spam. Which leads me to think that we're on the right track with spamming :D

 

Which leads me to another interesting bit. If I were to drop 1 Tactical Squad, it would give enough points to put Machine Spitir on all the Predators. If "mobility" (as in ensuring the Predators are in the right place at the right time) is around what the list is built, then doing the proper investment is interesting. 12 Lascannons capable of coming from reserves 6" to get the good angles with 48" range sounds interesting ;)

 

@Skimask : I'll take a look at your lst tomorrow. How did you place at that tournament ?

[SkimaskMohawk]

I tied for 1st but since I was running the tournament and won best painted as well I just went for the painted prize