Red Marines

[Jorre]

Ive never been a supporter of merging the BA dex with space marines, but the way things are at the moment I could almost change my mind.

 

In previous editions Ultramarines have always been looked after. If you played raven guard or iron hands or most the other chapters without a stand alone codex they where fairly lackluster when compared to us or ultras.

 

Fast fowrward to current day looking at what we know of the new Angels of death supplement and there has never been more options for all the codex marines chapters. The formations and unit options are incredible at the moment.

 

There are so many good choices that if we where to be merged i would not be unhappy anymore.

 

The problem is we have so many unique units that would be difficult to intergrate. They managed to do it with black templars because they only really have 1-2 units and a few special characters. But BA have way to much to squeeze into the current codex without making cuts to our unit selection.

 

So how about a new discussion on if you think a merge would be a good idea. What units would you be prepared to loose or SHARE with normal marines in order to make a merger happen?

 

Librarian dreads??

Baal predators??

 

Obviously sang guard and death company are unique to us!

 

I think we have alot more to gain than loose from a merger. Not to mention vanilla marines get 10x more regular updates and editions than us!

[Arkangilos]

Nothing, it should be like 3rd edition but with more fluff written in.

 

The vast majority says, "See codex: space marines" and we can keep ALL of our special units.

 

Also, Baal Preds have been unique to us for far longer than Sanguinary Guard, who are just honor guard with jump packs, so they'd be the one I think should go if we had to drop one.

[Teetengee]

Out of curiosity, would including the death company as a special unit and then having chapter tactics be fast vehicles (if they could get the bonuses again) and furious charge be enough? Maybe with the addition of some special formations to get some of the other units in effectively. Also, for the baal pred, the best case would probably just be to roll the options in (but still make it so only bangles get fast ones).

[Silverson]

i dont think that merging us in with codex: space marines is the right thing to do. The problem we have as far as I can see is poor timing of our codex release schedule that has made us the inferior codex since the release of 6th edition (June 2012). Added to that is the fact that gw now seems to have gotten space wolves and dark Angels to a place where they seem a lot better than us as well can get us feeling a little left out.

 

Also when we did get a new codex we didn't get a new shiny toy to keep us occupied just new sculpts of tactical marines, terminators etc..

[Quixus]

Out of curiosity, would including the death company as a special unit and then having chapter tactics be fast vehicles (if they could get the bonuses again) and furious charge be enough? Maybe with the addition of some special formations to get some of the other units in effectively. Also, for the baal pred, the best case would probably just be to roll the options in (but still make it so only bangles get fast ones).

Sounds good to me. Maybe remove the centurions from "CT: BA". Add a Sanguinary Priest formation as a choice for the Gladius detachment and you're done.

 

@Silverson: If the codices are merged there won't be any timing issues anymore, at least not compared to C:SM. I doubt GW would nerf such a huge portion of its models.

[Jorre]

I think that is the biggest benifit to a merge. Future updates arw garanteed to be timely if we are with the other marines as they always get looked after!

 

Eliminating the BA have been left behind again feeling

[Silverson]

@quixus cant believe I didn't realise that, that's what I get for posting as soon as I wake up.

[Blindhamster]

I've said for a long time that all marines should be merged, IMO the format used in heresy would be perfect.

 

Provide us with a book of all things generic, then a separate book that covers a few (2-3) unique units per chapter and then some characters

 

Our unique should be:

Baal predators

Death company

Sanguinary priests

 

The sanguinary guard would work the same as space marine honour guard but get access to jump packs.

 

For characters we'd have:

Dante

Mephiston

Corbulo

Lemartes or astorath

 

Losing tycho is fine considering how bad he is now and the fact that at current time he's dead or about to die.

 

The sanguinor could be it's own little suppliment/data sheet down the line perhaps.

 

Seth would be cut because flesh tearers would get a suppliment with his rules and another character or two and special rules for using them.

[SM1981]

I've said for a long time that all marines should be merged, IMO the format used in heresy would be perfect.

 

Provide us with a book of all things generic, then a separate book that covers a few (2-3) unique units per chapter and then some characters

 

Our unique should be:

Baal predators

Death company

Sanguinary priests

 

The sanguinary guard would work the same as space marine honour guard but get access to jump packs.

 

For characters we'd have:

Dante

Mephiston

Corbulo

Lemartes or astorath

 

Losing tycho is fine considering how bad he is now and the fact that at current time he's dead or about to die.

 

The sanguinor could be it's own little suppliment/data sheet down the line perhaps.

 

Seth would be cut because flesh tearers would get a suppliment with his rules and another character or two and special rules for using them.

I just don't understand why GW can't issue a quick errata that brings us in line with everyone else. Basically that says anything in C:SM can also be used by faction BA, with same stat lines.

 

The idea that so maby things are misaligned is mental. We a bang on about scouts at BS3, but does anyone else buy that our devastates couldn't work out how to pick up and carry a grav cannon when literally every other marine chater can? Throw into the mix that we have access to grav weapons of a lower calibre too and it just gets crazy. A common sense fix would take an afternoon to draft and could be shot out so quickly.

 

Open up the C:SM formations and detachments to us.

Open up Grav Cannon.

Let Devs take Heavy Flamers (the idea a tactical marine can work it out but that it will stump a devastator is mental - especially as they are supposed to specialise in heavy weapons).

Open up Frag Cannon as a heavy weapon choice to our squads.

Open up Centurions to us.

Fix scouts.

 

And suddenly all BA players are quite a lot happier.

 

(I'm sure i've missed a few things this is just off my head).

[Xenith]

I really think we have too much stuff (mainly special characters) to be crammed into C:SM.

 

For me, the best options would seen:

 

1) £30 SM codex with £20 BA supplement: Don't repeat common units, supplement has more fluff, all special characters, compiles formations from Shield of Baal series, etc.

2) BA get rolled into C:SM, 1-2 characters. But to make this work, we need to give more to C:SM. From the top of my head:

• SM get generic "primus medicae" character (Sanguinary priests)
• Death company become a special choice with fixed chapter tactics: BA, much like the Templar crusader squads
• Furioso's become a subset of Ironclads. But then this book ends up being very chunky, and expensive, and you lose fluff - there would be an additional BA supplement sometime, anyway.
• Sanguinary guard become honour guard with jump packs.
• Inferno pistols and hand flamers become generic options.

[evildrcheese]

To be honest I think I could live with been rolled into the main dex, perhaps with a supplement to cover our unique units in line with what Blind Hamster is suggesting.

 

What Blind Hamster is suggesting has it's virtues as it'd allow you to provide different wargear options through the upgrade page, so for instance in the vehicle upgrade list referred to in the 'core' book, in a BA supplement it could state may use the upgrades presented in BA vehicles upgrades and that's where you'd put the fast engines etc.

 

You could also had variance by bring back our Reclusiarch HQ and allow Chaplains to be taken as Elites again (which is where I'd prefer to see priests with 1-3) per slot for both.

 

In terms of sharing units, I think Libby dreads should be available to all, but I doubt gw would make q generic kit for it.

 

EDC

[Charlo]

Make us a supplement and I'd be happy enough, like 3rd.

 

Saves us having almost identical reprints of units across the books.

 

We could have "chapter tactics: blood angels" for Furious charge. We could keep our detachments as only usable by chapter tactics BA.

 

Another facet of it would be replacing any infantry models heavy bolter with a heavy flamer at appropriate cost. Sure it would open heavy flamer Devs but that's hardly over powered. Plus heavy flamer scouts!!!

 

Plus options for our pistols integrated into a small, extra armoury list. Plus relics.

 

Then you just add in our units and some facets of inclusion in formations. Ironclads = Furioso's etc.

 

Basically the codex now but no copies from the main book.

 

Of course then we have the problem of we may be lower on the update list as a supplement... And not being our own major faction may mean models don't get made for us anymore? Who knows.

 

Tbh even DA is a fine example of what we could be.

[sebs_evo7]

I would be most unhappy to go back to a supplement. I would be worried we would loose a lot of our unique units and we would loose our flavor.

I'm happy to sit here and wait for our update that is surely just around the corner right guys?

[Frater Antodeniel]

I do not believe what i'm reading....no seriously, you are that desperate that you would trow away the Uniqueness of the Blood Angels codex, making them a Second army choice without much more identity...

 

You think that by abandoning the Blood Angels codex, you may gain more within the C:SM one ? i think you are wrong !

 

Lets rewrite a little the Fluff, specifically the very tiny part where it is said that Blood Angels are codex compliant, and instead of Merging with other, lets find out new other ways to be more unique !

 

Most of you still remember most of the ideas i got for BA new and unique units, this should be enough to show you that there is plenty of way to add units to our range and gameplay. (Death Company Terminators ? Blood Angels Special Land Speeder ? Red Thirst fallen unit ? and why not an Ares Land Raider, that in this specific case would be shared with the DA chapters ? Frag-Cannon/Autocannon/Assault Cannon Devastator ?.....so much way to be more unique.....)

 

Blood Angels are worthy of their own Codex, and the Flesh Tearers are worthy of either be a significant part of it Or a Supplement of the BA codex.

[Xenith]

I do not believe what i'm reading....no seriously, you are that desperate that you would trow away the Uniqueness of the Blood Angels codex, making them a Second army choice without much more identity...

 

Lets rewrite a little the Fluff, specifically the very tiny part where it is said that Blood Angels are codex compliant, and instead of Merging with other, lets find out new other ways to be more unique !

 

So, your solution to a 'loss of identity' from joining with C:SM is to...rewrite our background?

 

The BA and their successors are trying, desperately, to adhere to the codex, but there is the small problem of the flaw.

 

I'd rather have a supplement with 75% fluff and background and 25% rules than one page for each unit entry with a tiny scrap of flavour text. The current style of datasheets is a massive step backwards in this regard.

 

See codex: Black Legion, for example.

[The Pyrofessional]

 

I've said for a long time that all marines should be merged, IMO the format used in heresy would be perfect.

 

Provide us with a book of all things generic, then a separate book that covers a few (2-3) unique units per chapter and then some characters

 

Our unique should be:

Baal predators

Death company

Sanguinary priests

 

The sanguinary guard would work the same as space marine honour guard but get access to jump packs.

 

For characters we'd have:

Dante

Mephiston

Corbulo

Lemartes or astorath

 

Losing tycho is fine considering how bad he is now and the fact that at current time he's dead or about to die.

 

The sanguinor could be it's own little suppliment/data sheet down the line perhaps.

 

Seth would be cut because flesh tearers would get a suppliment with his rules and another character or two and special rules for using them.

I just don't understand why GW can't issue a quick errata that brings us in line with everyone else. Basically that says anything in C:SM can also be used by faction BA, with same stat lines.

 

The idea that so maby things are misaligned is mental. We a bang on about scouts at BS3, but does anyone else buy that our devastates couldn't work out how to pick up and carry a grav cannon when literally every other marine chater can? Throw into the mix that we have access to grav weapons of a lower calibre too and it just gets crazy. A common sense fix would take an afternoon to draft and could be shot out so quickly.

 

Open up the C:SM formations and detachments to us.

Open up Grav Cannon.

Let Devs take Heavy Flamers (the idea a tactical marine can work it out but that it will stump a devastator is mental - especially as they are supposed to specialise in heavy weapons).

Open up Frag Cannon as a heavy weapon choice to our squads.

Open up Centurions to us.

Fix scouts.

 

And suddenly all BA players are quite a lot happier.

 

(I'm sure i've missed a few things this is just off my head).

 

And Dreadnought attacks.

Just do small update,(which i WOULD be willing to pay for.) that includes these Changes and any more that might be needed.

[Blindhamster]

I do not believe what i'm reading....no seriously, you are that desperate that you would trow away the Uniqueness of the Blood Angels codex, making them a Second army choice without much more identity...

 

You think that by abandoning the Blood Angels codex, you may gain more within the C:SM one ? i think you are wrong !

 

Lets rewrite a little the Fluff, specifically the very tiny part where it is said that Blood Angels are codex compliant, and instead of Merging with other, lets find out new other ways to be more unique !

 

Most of you still remember most of the ideas i got for BA new and unique units, this should be enough to show you that there is plenty of way to add units to our range and gameplay. (Death Company Terminators ? Blood Angels Special Land Speeder ? Red Thirst fallen unit ? and why not an Ares Land Raider, that in this specific case would be shared with the DA chapters ? Frag-Cannon/Autocannon/Assault Cannon Devastator ?.....so much way to be more unique.....)

 

Blood Angels are worthy of their own Codex, and the Flesh Tearers are worthy of either be a significant part of it Or a Supplement of the BA codex.

Honestly, whilst I've always admired the effort you put in, I just don't like most of the units you've come up with. I likewise don't agree with rewriting our fluff.

I've been in the hobby for nearly 20 years now and loved BA from when they were 'just' a suppliment, our suppliment had almost all the unique things we have now (actually it had more in many ways). We are and always have been a mostly codex compliant chapter - which makes sense considering what Sanguinius stood for.

 

As for flesh tearers, I think they're probably deserving of a large section of any suppliment or codex we are part of, bit frankly from a rules perspective I don't see them as much different from blood angels. They are absolutely no more deserving to have a suppliment of their own than any other successor for any chapter.

[Frater Antodeniel]

 

I do not believe what i'm reading....no seriously, you are that desperate that you would trow away the Uniqueness of the Blood Angels codex, making them a Second army choice without much more identity...

 

Lets rewrite a little the Fluff, specifically the very tiny part where it is said that Blood Angels are codex compliant, and instead of Merging with other, lets find out new other ways to be more unique !

 

So, your solution to a 'loss of identity' from joining with C:SM is to...rewrite our background?

 

The BA and their successors are trying, desperately, to adhere to the codex, but there is the small problem of the flaw.

 

I'd rather have a supplement with 75% fluff and background and 25% rules than one page for each unit entry with a tiny scrap of flavour text. The current style of datasheets is a massive step backwards in this regard.

 

See codex: Black Legion, for example.

 

 

In this regard you just have to check the DA codex, which featured almost each units with a 1 page entry.

 

Also, about the background part, i'm not saying to rewrite all of it, but to adapt the Codex compliant part of it, and to develop the Blood Angels fluff further (What happen to Blood Angels overhelmed by the Thirst for exemple ? did they are just emprisoned without any future than a painfull thirsty death ?....etc). Furthermore, many Blood Angels successors are famously known for their ill-respect of the Codex (Flesh Tearers, Flesh Eaters, Knights of Blood for the known exemples).

 

And for almost all Blood Angels chapters, the Flaw isn't a "Small problem" but a "Major problem".

 

And if the Blood Angels become a Supplement, then the Dark Angels must become one too, for after all, they are much more of a Codex compliant than us......

 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

In the end, i will only say this to everyone :

 

"By searching for more than we have, we loose what really was important, and only obtain things that are not important, learning in tears that our desire was a foolish one."

[Charlo]

Really though - once the flaw becomes a major problem, all that happens game terms is you're fielding more and more DC until you go extinct as a chapter, hopefully going down like a true son of the Angel and taking down the biggest son of a bitch with you!

 

Though, id be open to a detachment that made elites compulsory that had to be filled by DC and have a chaplain that gave other fluffy madness bonuses to represent a a more damn chapter?

 

Conversely to hamster I am a fan of some of your units Anto - but I'd rather we have fewer, quality units like we do now than lots more additional ones thrown in out of hastily added/ retconned fluff.

 

Really - Dark Angels could become a supplement too. They have chapter tactics to an extent and then a few additional units. Things like scouts/ tacs/ devs/ all the vehicles are essentially the exact same as the codex.

 

They would be LARGE supplements though, but they'd just save on reprints of existing units.

 

Hell I'd also do away with the big eavy metal photo sections of codexes. One or two double page spreads is enough for me. I want a rules and fluff book not a catalogue.

[The Pyrofessional]

 

 

I do not believe what i'm reading....no seriously, you are that desperate that you would trow away the Uniqueness of the Blood Angels codex, making them a Second army choice without much more identity...

 

Lets rewrite a little the Fluff, specifically the very tiny part where it is said that Blood Angels are codex compliant, and instead of Merging with other, lets find out new other ways to be more unique !

 

So, your solution to a 'loss of identity' from joining with C:SM is to...rewrite our background?

 

The BA and their successors are trying, desperately, to adhere to the codex, but there is the small problem of the flaw.

 

I'd rather have a supplement with 75% fluff and background and 25% rules than one page for each unit entry with a tiny scrap of flavour text. The current style of datasheets is a massive step backwards in this regard.

 

See codex: Black Legion, for example.

 

 

In this regard you just have to check the DA codex, which featured almost each units with a 1 page entry.

 

Also, about the background part, i'm not saying to rewrite all of it, but to adapt the Codex compliant part of it, and to develop the Blood Angels fluff further (What happen to Blood Angels overhelmed by the Thirst for exemple ? did they are just emprisoned without any future than a painfull thirsty death ?....etc). Furthermore, many Blood Angels successors are famously known for their ill-respect of the Codex (Flesh Tearers, Flesh Eaters, Knights of Blood for the known exemples).

 

And for almost all Blood Angels chapters, the Flaw isn't a "Small problem" but a "Major problem".

 

And if the Blood Angels become a Supplement, then the Dark Angels must become one too, for after all, they are much more of a Codex compliant than us......

 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

In the end, i will only say this to everyone :

 

"By searching for more than we have, we loose what really was important, and only obtain things that are not important, learning in tears that our desire was a foolish one."

 

We could just get a update

with things just to bring us in line with C:SM Dread attacks, scout WS BS, etc

[Arkangilos]

I disagree with what most people are saying, especially about the furioso. The furioso is NOT our iron clad. It is our venerable. So at the least, it should be a venerable dreadnought with extra close combat options.

 

Like I said earlier, it should be similar to third edition, where we are a supplement, but we have ALL of our unique units thrown in. For tactical and devastator marines, dreadnoughts, scouts, etc. it would say, "see codex space marines." For assault marines it would have the extra options ours have (just like third).

 

We would have our own war gear table we can also choose from.

 

However, I don't think we should have access to everything codex space marine has. Certain vehicles, certain units, certain items would still be a no. Generic formations should be usable.

 

This way we keep everything that is unique to us, but everything that isn't will always be kept in line with the update. Heck, the unique stuff can always say, "see codex space marines, but add this to the stat or options"

[Quixus]

I mostly agree, but still I think that BA could be integrated into C:SM just as the Black Twemplars were integrated. Sure we have a few more unique units, but just like the Crusader squads ours could require a certain CT to be fielded. Lucifer Engines, assault/flamestorm cannons on predators, Sanguinary Guard, etc. could simply require CT:BA.

 

There also are certain fluff restrictions about other chapters that for some reason did not make it into the rules: Do White Scars even use dreadnoughts? Do the Crimson Fists have Terminators left? Etc. Those could also be introduced.

[Nicodemus Doloroso]

I am very surprised to see that I am very much in the minority in saying that I want no part of BA being rolled into a generic space marine codex. The uniqueness of the BA is exactly what drew me to them ... I was never interested in standard space marines and would have stuck purely to Imperial Guard and Inquisition were it not for the BA 5th edition codex.

[NTaW]

When I started playing BA they were a supplementary Codex to the SM one (3rd edition?), it worked just fine and we had all the fancy stuff necessary for a unique army. If it means not waiting for rules updates I'm all for it, though I am harkening back to a time when books were half as much dollas per. Kinda looks like we're headed back to that model anyway with the Formation madness GW's cooked up for us.

[Blindhamster]

Ah the days of the £10 codex and £4 suppliment. That's when I started too